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Bridging division between Working Border Collie Tradition vs. “Working” Agility Dogs+Other Disciplines


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my reply is just in general observation

I have BC I have him because he as not wanted by his 1st owner

I do agility with him because I was already doing it with my other dog i did not get him for that purpose

I like it he likes it we have fun together

I also have tried to take him to sheep herding clinics and find places to get lessons I want him to do what he is supposed to do and enjoy his life and I LOVE to watch him do agility look at sheep play frisbee catch a ball whatever.

To me hes amazing I would have a houseful like him but he is also neutered he does not have AKC papers hes a BC that came from actual farm working parents and I am astounded by the other agility people I know that

look to other agility people breeding dogs to get another prospect! I was acually conversing with someone yesterday and they told me that so and so (well known handler) was looking for another dog and that she was looking at this specific kennels so nosy me looks it up they are agility breeders and to top it off they are AKC reagistered. I read the BC wars I get it its a shame I also see what AKC did to the Aussie

they are not the Aussie i grew up along with other breeds AKC is a not the place for me.

 

We all have BCs and all dogs well being at heart and to the OP if you feel you are educated and know more than these "real" BC folks good luck to you i would encourage you to #1 READ THE BC WARS

#2 look at some other agility venues besides AKC...........

We have CPE ,ASCA,NADAC they all offer plenty of shows a year atleast in my area and these people also have trained nice dogs they may just not have the $ to chase a MACH title in your littleworld.

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I think she is just inexperienced and new. So it still is all idealistic. :-) I was very idealistic when I first started. I hope now I am more realistic but it took/takes time and experience. I use to think the MACH was the end all to end all titles. But after competing and helping out at trials. I think I've raised my standards a bit. And its not the titles that count per say its the team and their relationship that matters.

SS, I appreciate you trying to be understanding with Serena but I have a feeling she’s not like you. To me, Serena is desperately trying to fit in and be accepted by the snobby AKC “in” group. (“Ohhh! Look what I did! I talked a stockdog person into breeding with your agility dog! Will you accept me now??” or “Look what I did! I got some stockdog people to sign a petition to do away with conformation! Will you accept me now??”) I go for weeks, sometimes months, without coming onto the boards so I could be wrong but to my knowledge, you have never done anything this (starting a thread like this) desperate.

 

Serena, prove me wrong, please. Read “The Dog Wars”.

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I still say petitioning is still important because of principle. I still have a hope that someday this might work, at least against the puppy mills....If it worked in England, it can work for us.

 

Two points:

 

It hasn't worked in England. The Kennel Club still registers dogs from puppy mills, quite happily. Go to any dog selling website and you can see puppies which are obviously from puppy mills, which are KC reg. It hasn't worked with the IKC either- every puppy farmer worth his salt has his dogs registered. The clubs care a lot more about the £ or $ from the puppy mills than the signatures of a few dog people.

 

Secondly- say I go buy a pup from a puppy mill, someone really unethical, who everyone knows is bad news. I write them a letter beforehand telling them how awful they are. Once a year I go and collect signatures to a document saying 'Puppy mills are bad', and send it to this breeder. Then I go buy another pup from him, and continue to buy pups from him. I insist this is the only possible way, and that we shouldn't be alienating people who buy from this puppy farmer by criticising them.

 

Would that be acting on principle? Would that be "fighting corruption" and never giving up? Doing something to help the dogs?

 

Especially when I know that they've paid absolutely no attention to similar petitions before, and they do so every year to mine.

 

 

After all, whether it works or not, who cares?

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SS, I appreciate you trying to be understanding with Serena but I have a feeling she’s not like you. To me, Serena is desperately trying to fit in and be accepted by the snobby AKC “in” group. (“Ohhh! Look what I did! I talked a stockdog person into breeding with your agility dog! Will you accept me now??” or “Look what I did! I got some stockdog people to sign a petition to do away with conformation! Will you accept me now??”) I go for weeks, sometimes months, without coming onto the boards so I could be wrong but to my knowledge, you have never done anything this (starting a thread like this) desperate.

 

Serena, prove me wrong, please. Read “The Dog Wars”.

 

True I don't think I have ever started a tread looking to convince people to accept and breed to agility MACH dog or to accept MACH handlers(I still giggle at the term).

 

But a lot of her thoughts, insight I don't see happening in the agility world. It has a ring of an inexperience person.

Take her input on ETS it wasn't accurate at all...

And that whole breeding theory its in my book off from reality. I am still relatively new to agility and I don't hear ever of a person breeding their MACH dog to a top herding dog. Why would they? What would they hope to produce. While I realize that statement is odd to say the least and hey for all I know some agility have asked and been refused, to me what would you hope to accomplish from that? You have one parent who hasn't proven themselves in agility. For all you know that dog can't jump right or get over the edge to easy. You don't know until that dog has at least tried and trials in agility. So why breed to them?

We have already discuss how different agility is from herding. Trials included it takes a different twist on already born traits.

 

I think rootbeer is more eloquent then me. I fear my writing butcher and thus take away from what I am trying to get across.

 

All I guess I am trying to say the OP seem inexperience. She already mention she rarely trials, and I don't know if she takes classes. This is I think her first border collie or agility dog. All I am trying to say is she will mature and eventually take off those rose color glasses.

 

Don't quite crucified her just yet or lose hope on her

ETA:To am using my phone to write from so wording might be missing or inaccurate used or it likes to combine and add xtra words to my writing. Lol thank doG for smart phones right?

And to me this thread is ridiculous. I am really surprise with how well and how considerate everyone been!

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All I am trying to say is she will mature and eventually take off those rose color glasses.

 

Don't quite crucified her just yet or lose hope on her.

I hope you're right because Serena's cult-like attitude towards the AKC is beginning to make me wonder how she's going to start feeling towards Eluane if/when he never meets "their" standard.

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I think Serena may well be inexperienced but I've heard this "breeding proposal" from some long time AKC Border Collie people before. "Successful" people too. Frankly, this scares hell out of me because on several occasions I've seen a particular AKC person's BCs and they are completely neurotic, practically vibrating. When I met her, her dog was all over the place and mine was calmly lying on the ground. I recently observed a conformation competition (not sure if that is the correct term) and I had my dogs with me. A woman walked up to me, looked at my dogs and and said "What's wrong with your dogs? They look like vultures. You *obviously* don't belong here". Nice, real nice. But whatever. Another person heard the comment and said "Your dogs look quite practical and I'm sure they're lovely".

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I've heard my area is nicer then other areas competition wise in agility.

 

I've never all in all ask breeder who they want to breed from. We have some really nice sport bred border collies in our area and some farm bred border collies. I used to think sport bred were psycho but am starting to see a lot is how it was raised and age. Don't thinkbat the local level we have any working bred border collies. I've seen some in other areas and they seem nice lol but they were the only two I've seen that were "working bred". I've seen some at nationals but I had a limited resource seeing I was looking more at 16in border collies. At the usdaa nationals I started to just watch how the dogs perform and talk to the owners afterwards.

 

From my limited understanding it always seem that Agility breeder want a pup from top herding lines and then they prove the dog in their sport then breed it. That scares me to think some agility breeder thinks that breeding to top working line to their top agility lines would magically make a superb dog. I wonder if they did successfully find an accessible stud and how that cross turn out.

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It has a ring of an inexperience person.

 

-----

 

Take her input on ETS it wasn't accurate at all...

 

Yeah - it's all been bizzare. It seems to be a sports perspective, but a it's very narrow, elite one in a wide sporting world. And it's frought with inaccuracies (a dog can only do agility until they are 5 y/o, hello?!? a BC is in it's prime until 8-9 y/o. Why not continue to do agility for a few more years if you're both having fun?) which even I can see and I have next to no agility experience...

 

It seems like a person who is just getting their feet wet and has seen a just glimpse of what a really well trained dog can do in a certain venue and is a bit star struck.

 

I don't get the idea that she wants to breed, but she does want to justify (or have us accept) the breeding her friends may do. Because well, their dogs are awesome at agility in her in her opinion.

 

Just my take on the whole thing...

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I recently observed a conformation competition (not sure if that is the correct term) and I had my dogs with me. A woman walked up to me, looked at my dogs and and said "What's wrong with your dogs? They look like vultures. You *obviously* don't belong here". Nice, real nice. But whatever. Another person heard the comment and said "Your dogs look quite practical and I'm sure they're lovely".

I always heard mainly positive things about my border collies. Even a conformation judge and breeders was very impress with how my border collies look. They weren't being shown! I was at a seminar... look embarrassed now...

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OurBoys. I do not lie about my learning disability, :angry: just like I do not lie about never ever breeding!!! I've got a very serious learning disability so you need to lay off in this! This is one area that you have crossed that I will not tolerate. That undiagnosed disability has led to a lot of DECADES of emotional scarring until I turned 35 when it was finally diagnosed SO BACK OFF NOW!!!!!!!!!! And I will not respond to you anymore on this thread.

 

Thank you Cressa and for those experienced folks who are trying to get through. Folks I can understand your headaches, but why try to get through to one person, a zebra who doesn't fit in the AKC World or The Sheepherding World. I fit nowhere. Geonni was being right that talking with me is like the Twilight Zone. Why get so many headaches and ulcers over one person who I guarantee would give AKC headaches and ulcers too if I had my way.;) I do not want puppy mills to exist ever! and I don't want conformation either for the Border Collie. It is a tragedy to breed just for looks, and yes, this will indeed destroy the entire B.C. breed. I only hung out here because in case there are agility folks or people buying new puppies, they can indeed come to this thread, and hopefully they will be more convinced to go with you all. Instead of the one voice that I put in. You see, I only believe in a .0000000000001% of agility champions to be bred, the rest of the agility dogs and folks either need to have a rescue dog or go back to the original working line. I just know that top agility champion folks are gonna want a top agility dog too, so we do need a very strong and proven line for just the agility champions and experts in the agility field to continue their lines in a constructive way. I even dread talking about a second dog, because Eluane is my one-and-only, and I will not ever! get another one until she has passed on. Very rarely does this happen in the agility world. Handlers will get multiple dogs within each dog's lifetime. I won't. Not until Eluane passes on.

 

As for the petitions, in England it worked once! and it was a very critical and effective protest. The picketers and petitioners got Crufts to take away a sponsor who was a puppy mill sponsor. News, media was brought in, enough controversy. Every year, in England they continue to petition. Just like in England they petitioned against the use of shock collars. Some regions passed laws against it but not all. Their petitions and years of hard work made it happen in those regions...In England,yes, they are stillllll working on the puppy mill issue, but at least they try real hard! I am sorry I tripped over my words again, folks. Got scattered and rushed through things...Remember folks I can't always focus or read/interpret all my words very accurately or how they will be interpreted.

 

Cressa summed it up, is that I am an inexperienced idealist in wanting and wishing AKC was one way, when it isn't and wanting to change it and seeking those who want to change it. The idealism and concern I have is that I know the agility mindset. There is a temptation of agility folks to look only at the agility Border Collies. And this really worries me. We cannot do this!!! That is why we must always go back to the original working dog line to make sure the agility dog does not lose its original heritage. I'm only saying that only in extremely rare, very difficult to attain circumstances should an agility dog ever be bred- the rest of us folks we don't breed!!!! Conformation must be stopped for Border Collies. Puppy mills need to be outlawed! That's all....

 

The rest of this thread was supposed to be talking about the joys of agility and SAR dogs, etc. But somehow this got swept away. And no, for 99.999999% folks it's a great pastime and a fun teamwork and yes a passionate "game" for most of us, but in some cases it's actual work when the person trains, conducts seminars, competes at World Levels--- it is no longer a "game" then. To call it a "just a game" is unfair. It's become part of their vocation/career.

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1st how would you classified a puppy mill?

2nd are you looking at abolishing comformation competition or the breeding for comformation?

3rd no you don't know the typical mindset of agility folk. Maybe some but I don't think that mindset is typical for most. :) at least I don't think so.

4. Some might be drawn to an agility dog with huge titles other prefer a border collie who does well in agility. That does not mean titles I am talking about how a dog performs in agility: does it scramble? How does it jump? Is it smooth? Etc..

 

Good luck in agility and I hope you remember your dog is amazing no matter what it does!

 

And ps... it IS a game for most people(if I have to see another novice handle pissed off at their dog for 1 following their signals and going off course or 2 making baby dogs mistakes or 3 entering a dog not ready for competition and expecting excellent levels from them... Ooo it makes me upset! This is a game you are suppose to enjoy with your dog! And what the other thing we get drilled into our heads? That if your dog makes a mistake it most likely your fault?!)I I generally see dogs suffer when the owner decides agility isn't a game. When people think of it as work they seem to generally blame the dog and forget they are part of the team and part if not most of he problem.

 

Hope that makes sense?

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I only believe in a .0000000000001% of agility champions to be bred

 

Exactly why you're not getting it. This should be .0000000000000%

 

How can this concept possibly still escape you??

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You see, I only believe in a .0000000000001% of agility champions to be bred, the rest of the agility dogs and folks either need to have a rescue dog or go back to the original working line.

 

Umm, that is a lot of dogs. A lot. Agility is a reletively new sport. Have there even been a third that many agility champions? So why are agility folks breeding at all?

 

 

The rest of this thread was supposed to be talking about the joys of agility and SAR dogs, etc. But somehow this got swept away.

 

Why? :huh: I see no great divide when it comes to stockwork and SAR. I see no reason to breed a Border Collie for SAR work. I have a working bred dog and he does quite nicely at it as does the other working bred dog on my team. When I want another SAR dog, I'll go find a working breeder with the type of dogs I like and get a pup. Or I'll go to resuce and get a dog that shows good apptitude for SAR work. It won't be to hard.

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One thing I want to say to the OP is that you seem to really want to help prevent puppy mills but petitioning the AKC is not going to do much but waste time. If you truly want to help stop commercial breeding practices, I urge you to get involved with your state government! Tougher LAWS are what will help the most and the enforcement of those laws. The AKC is not going to care, they are a for profit company. Puppy mills are money to them. Please contact your local representatives and find a local group that is actively trying to stop this problem. A local group where I am in NY state tried but failed to pass a local law banning the sale of dogs in pet stores. LAWS will stop the cruelty and making sure the laws are enforced. Volunteer with a local animal advocacy group and start talking to people about why they should not buy a dog from a commercial breeder (and how to detect whether someone is a commercial breeder), a pet store, etc. Get out there and talk to people, education is key (my BF's aunt told me about this amazing "mini aussie" at our local pet store and how she thought I would be interested in it). She has no clue that all the dogs there are shipped in from Missouri puppy mills and don't get me started on "mini aussies".... :blink:

Here are a few links that may help you help dogs:

 

 

http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/statestatutes/stusksset.htm

http://learningtogive.org/papers/paper351.html

http://www.aspca.org/fight-animal-cruelty/puppy-mills/laws-that-protect-dogs.aspx

http://www.humanesociety.org/news/press_releases/2010/12/kansas_puppy_mill_deaths_122110.html

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You see, I only believe in a .0000000000001% of agility champions to be bred, the rest of the agility dogs and folks either need to have a rescue dog or go back to the original working line. I just know that top agility champion folks are gonna want a top agility dog too, so we do need a very strong and proven line for just the agility champions and experts in the agility field to continue their lines in a constructive way.

 

I'm only saying that only in extremely rare, very difficult to attain circumstances should an agility dog ever be bred- the rest of us folks we don't breed!!!!

So which is it? Do "you" or don't "you" breed? You can't have it both ways. (The you is rhetorical.)

 

You almost have it right. Get a rescue or go to working lines to acquire an agility dog. Forget the 0000000000001% agility breeding. If the working breeder's dog does well for you then go back to the working breeder for the next dog. This is really very simple.

 

If you want to do something about the AKC's involvement with puppy mills, stop giving them money! If you abhor the conformation ring, don't participate in AKC events! This is not rocket science. These are the only really effective weapons you have to fight the cancer that is the AKC.

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OurBoys. I do not lie about my learning disability, :angry: just like I do not lie about never ever breeding!!! I've got a very serious learning disability so you need to lay off in this! This is one area that you have crossed that I will not tolerate. That undiagnosed disability has led to a lot of DECADES of emotional scarring until I turned 35 when it was finally diagnosed SO BACK OFF NOW!!!!!!!!!! And I will not respond to you anymore on this thread.

Thank you for this outburst. As odd as this may seem, it actually makes you sound as if you have some pride. So stop belittling yourself and referring to yourself as a "nobody". Now take that pride and tell yourself, title or no title, you are just as good as 'they' are.

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I recently observed a conformation competition (not sure if that is the correct term) and I had my dogs with me. A woman walked up to me, looked at my dogs and and said "What's wrong with your dogs? They look like vultures. You *obviously* don't belong here". Nice, real nice.

 

This makes me a little sad and a lot angry (and brings back memories). I have to say that dog show folks are some* of the nastiest I've ever met. I'm sorry you were treated like that.

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They look like vultures.......

 

 

 

 

 

"Why yes, yes they do. Actually they are vultures. They are attracted to the smell of dead stuff. Anything DEAD 'round here?"

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The rest of this thread was supposed to be talking about the joys of agility and SAR dogs, etc. But somehow this got swept away. And no, for 99.999999% folks it's a great pastime and a fun teamwork and yes a passionate "game" for most of us, but in some cases it's actual work when the person trains, conducts seminars, competes at World Levels--- it is no longer a "game" then. To call it a "just a game" is unfair. It's become part of their vocation/career.

 

While I would not agree that making a career out of Agility necessitates breeding Border Collies, I would say that even many of those you consider "mere hobbyists" consider Agility to be more than a game. I certainly consider it to be more than a game - it has played a much larger role in my life and in the lives of my dogs. But I also understand that those who think of it as "just a game" are not going to agree with me on that point, so I see it as one of those agree to disagree things. This is something very subjective. The role that anything has in one's life - be it dog sport or non-dog related discipline - is completely individual.

 

Serena, if you want to explore a truly joyful dog sport, I suggest you give Musical Freestyle a whirl. Not only is it a sport that gives each and every dog and handler team, regardless of level, an opportunity to create and express the uniqueness of the team (which is completely unlike any other team, regardless of titles and honors earned!), but it is a sport where the input of all participants - even the beginners - is welcome and appreciated. In Freestyle nobody is "nobody" and the work of training, choreography, developing performance skills, etc. are at the heart of the endeavor for all teams. Beginners are actually appreciated because they bring something new to the sport.

 

Even if you are not interested in trying it out for yourself, you would do well to talk with people in the dog sport world who don't base all categorization on titles and prestigious achievements. It might broaden your view of dog sports and you might discover something even better than the MACH out there . . .

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On another note......humour me...ok?

 

(Serena.......) :)

 

Everyone stop what you are doing and take a good long look at your dog.

 

Ok

 

 

Now take a good long look at yourself.

 

 

Ok

 

 

In this world

 

In all of time and creation

 

This pairing between you and this creature will never ever happen again.

 

 

 

You are both....One of a kind

 

Never to be repeated

 

Like snowflakes.

 

 

 

Everyone is of infinite value

 

 

 

Irreplaceble.

 

 

 

Sorry I can't spell.

 

My old Pop used to say this.

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