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Bridging division between Working Border Collie Tradition vs. “Working” Agility Dogs+Other Disciplines

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;) Well, I can honestly say that the ones I have met, i.e. sought out, have been most exceptional! Of course incedently they where judges....:)

But....;)

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That is almost as if to say that all Irish are great dog handlers.

 

What I'm hearing is more along the lines of this:

 

Kristine: Guinness is different from all other beer I've ever had.

 

Responses:

 

I've never tasted any difference between Guinness and any other beer. I find that offensive because a lot of people like other kinds of beer. Who are you to judge the relationship between a beer and the person who drinks it?

 

Guinness is no different, you just like Guinness (actually I can't stand it - LOL!!) so you see a difference, but if you liked Budweiser, you would think it was as different as you think Guinness is.

 

Guinness is no different, it is the people who drink Guinness who make it seem different.

 

Other beer can make you just as drunk as Guinness, so the only difference is what people do with Guinness.

 

By saying that Guinness is different, you downplay the specialness of other beer.

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

OK, somebody is going to have a field day with this comparison and tear it to shreds and probably take offense to it!! :P I had fun coming up with it, anyway!! And it is a pretty good comparison between what I am actually saying (that I have observed distinct characteristic differences between Border Collies and dogs of other breeds in the training and sport context) and what I am hearing in reply (that's offensive to the dog and handler bond, that I am actually observing something other than the dogs, I only see a difference because I like Border Collies, that the only difference is training, etc. etc. etc).

 

For whatever it's worth . . . :)

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Oh, well, I guess the way I see it is that people who are aficianodoes of other breeds might think *their* breed has an "extra something" that border collies don't have. Border collie lovers might not necessarily buy into that, but that's why border collies are our breed. But if I were a dyed-in-the-wool bouvier person I might well argue about the special something extra that *my* breed possesses. That's what I thought people were trying to say (me included).

 

Yes! This^^

 

I guess I didn't really see people taking offense at comments (I know I didn't.) Different people just see things differently and each was trying to explain why they agreed or disagreed.

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What I'm hearing is more along the lines of this:

 

Kristine: Guinness is different from all other beer I've ever had.

 

Responses:

 

I've never tasted any difference between Guinness and any other beer. I find that offensive because a lot of people like other kinds of beer. Who are you to judge the relationship between a beer and the person who drinks it?

 

Guinness is no different, you just like Guinness (actually I can't stand it - LOL!!) so you see a difference, but if you liked Budweiser, you would think it was as different as you think Guinness is.

 

Guinness is no different, it is the people who drink Guinness who make it seem different.

 

Other beer can make you just as drunk as Guinness, so the only difference is what people do with Guinness.

 

By saying that Guinness is different, you downplay the specialness of other beer.

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

OK, somebody is going to have a field day with this comparison and tear it to shreds and probably take offense to it!! :P I had fun coming up with it, anyway!! And it is a pretty good comparison between what I am actually saying (that I have observed distinct characteristic differences between Border Collies and dogs of other breeds in the training and sport context) and what I am hearing in reply (that's offensive to the dog and handler bond, that I am actually observing something other than the dogs, I only see a difference because I like Border Collies, that the only difference is training, etc. etc. etc).

 

For whatever it's worth . . . :)

Well, I like Guinness well enough, especially when I'm sucking up to British judges and sheepdoggers, but it's too thick for me to win any chugging contests, so then I go for Bass Ale or Dos Equis. I used to drink Lowenbrau until it got "recognised" by the Coca Cola company, but when I want to get smashed it just can't do the job anymore!

On the other hand, I know people who can get completely blotto on Tiger Beer or Coors, so I guess it's just a matter of believing in the glass in front of you.

 

(Can this thread get any weirder?) :P

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Are you telling me now I cannot drink Guiness with my Irish pals before A sheep dog trial.

 

 

 

I am....offf handed.

 

 

 

I mean I am infending

 

 

 

 

I am trying to tell you something and you are not.....wait....are you there?

 

 

 

I am.....offended and I don't even drink Guineas. And My Friend Beth is Irish and she says she is riligeous too.

 

 

 

Back to Shaun the sheep

 

 

 

 

 

He's shaun the sheep....he's shaun the sheep.

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I used to drink Lowenbrau until it got "recognised" by the Coca Cola company, but when I want to get smashed it just can't do the job anymore!

 

Here's to good friends, tonight is kind of special

The beer we pour, there must be something more, somehow . . .

 

(Can this thread get any weirder?) :P

 

:D

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Here's to good friends, tonight is kind of special

The beer we pour, there must be something more, somehow . . .

 

 

 

:D

When the glass is full

drink up, drink up

this may be the last time we see this cup.

If God wanted us sober

he'd knock the glass over

so while it is full

we drink up.

 

Here's to the working Border Collie! doG bless 'is furry 'ead. An' you too Shaun! (I'm not as drunk as some thinkle peep I am!)

 

Come on, sheepdoggers, only 215 more posts to go to match the "What is the Point of This?" thread. We could all be forever enshrined in glory!

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It all comes down to interpretation, one of the fundamental failings with the written language because tone and emotion are not well conveyed for the most part. It's the reason people continue to debate the meanings behind some of the greatest literature in history. My direct interpretation of Milton, Frost, Shakespeare, Lawrence, etc. might vary considerably than yours.

 

And it should! That's part of the magic.

 

It doesn't mean that we all walk on egg shells when conversing, but it does mean that we should be open to other interpretations and understandings without ridicule or seeing something as a personal attack. It means we hold discourse until we come to some sort of accord, even if it is to agree to disagree.

 

After all, not all disagreements can be remedied, and we should not have to give up base principles, through words or actions, to make someone feel better.

 

In light of that, I personally feel this thread has lived out its usefulness. The arguments have been stated, beautifully debated by some, and conclusions reached.

 

What more is there except to get off topic and sometimes silly?

 

 

ETA: Just to clarify, at first, I was hurt at the implication that other breeds were somehow lesser, which is why I joined in the conversation in the matter. Now, I think there is a much better understanding from all sides, and I think we've come to some sort of agreement on it.

 

 

And ps I've watched that Wolfe run like 20 times or so, even paused it to figure out if I could see where that back paw was just enough on the contact. Maybe it's the video itself, but I still think the bc flew off without touching it. Other than that, Diane I think it was? did a great analysis of that run.

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BTW.....

 

 

Bandit say:

 

"Back off my beer!"

 

 

2004-10-10.jpg

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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What more is there except to get off topic and sometimes silly?

 

This thread has gone OT numerous times, and many of those diversions have been some of the most interesting bits. As for silly... What can you mean? All work makes Sugarfoot a dull Border Collie.* ;)

 

 

*This of course doesn't hold true for stockdogs! :P

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OK, I am SURE I will regret this in the morning (much like too many beers), but one more thing...

 

I think we all agree that the Border Collie is unique, in that it's the ultimate stock working dog, right? No other dog is like them in that regard? They've been bred that way for hundreds of years, with certain characteristics in mind, and not just stock sense. I'm talking about intelligence, problem solving, biddability, and being extremely in-tune with their people. (Those things, along with the BC energy and athleticism is why we always tell people, why breed for agility specific traits, when the BC that's been bred forever is perfectly suited for doggie sports, right?)

 

So, even as non-working breeding has diluted a lot of the working instinct, is it so far-fetched to believe that enough of the other Border Collie traits remain, that make it *different* to work with than other breeds? That *difference* being what some have labeled as "bringing something extra to the table", etc?

 

Just some thoughts rattling around in my head.

 

ETA:

 

And ps I've watched that Wolfe run like 20 times or so, even paused it to figure out if I could see where that back paw was just enough on the contact. Maybe it's the video itself, but I still think the bc flew off without touching it. Other than that, Diane I think it was? did a great analysis of that run.

 

I meant to say that I thought he blew the contact, too. I didn't re-watch it, but it sure looked like it to me.

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I have a question that's been rattling around in my head, too, and it is specifically for the OP.

 

You have mentioned, Serena, a few times, that you believe that this Agility breeding should only be done by the most elite of the elite "MACH Handlers', or whatever, and that anyone who isn't in the upper crust of this upper crust is "OUT" (If I misquoted you, I beg pardon - I am writing this from memory, but I believe you wrote that a bunch of times)

 

What I wonder is this: Who is supposed to ensure that only the absolute "best of the best of the best" - let's make it simple and say that's by your particular definition of who those people are - are actually breeding? Who, exactly is supposed to put them "out" if they do not meet this high elite standard?

 

Maybe you have said and I missed it, and if you have, a post reference would be fine.

 

And just to be clear - I am not asking this because I am in support of breeding of Border Collies for Agility. I am really interested in getting a better picture of where Serena is coming from. I have never come across this exact mindset in Agility before.

 

ETA: Reference, Post 400 in this thread, Serena is quoted:

 

You only breed the very top agility champion lines and only!!! from handlers who've got decades of experience in teaching agility, training for agility, who've got real proven titles and ranks and only if they keep close friends and contacts with the sheepherding community. If anyone fall short they are O-U-T!!!!

 

I believe you said this a few other times, as well, but at least I was able to dig up one reference of the statement about which I am asking.

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OK, I am SURE I will regret this in the morning (much like too many beers), but one more thing...

 

I think we all agree that the Border Collie is unique, in that it's the ultimate stock working dog, right? No other dog is like them in that regard? They've been bred that way for hundreds of years, with certain characteristics in mind, and not just stock sense. I'm talking about intelligence, problem solving, biddability, and being extremely in-tune with their people. (Those things, along with the BC energy and athleticism is why we always tell people, why breed for agility specific traits, when the BC that's been bred forever is perfectly suited for doggie sports, right?)

 

So, even as non-working breeding has diluted a lot of the working instinct, is it so far-fetched to believe that enough of the other Border Collie traits remain, that make it *different* to work with than other breeds? That *difference* being what some have labeled as "bringing something extra to the table", etc?

 

IMO, you find those traits in a Border Collie because of the nature of the job they were bred to do. Most Border Collies are either bred or the work or aren't that far removed from their from their working heritage and because of this you are quite likely to find that most Border Collies are a step above other breeds in the "total package" - desire to work with a person, bidability, problem solving, etc.

 

But I think individual dogs with those traits and the "total package" can be found in other working breeds, you just don't see the across the board high average in those breeds. It might be a 10/100 ratio as opposed to a 90/100. This could be due to the breed being farther away from their working heritage or perhaps the intricacies of the job having some different requirements. I would guess it's a combination of the two. I think that the more a breed (or individuals within a breed as is more often the case today) is bred to do a job with a person, the more they "bring to the table" so to speak.

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I'm not even going to try and read the whole thread (or book :@) but wanted to add my 2 cents to the "novel" :@)

 

I didn't get into "Border Collies" because I fell in love with the breed. I was working calves and needed a DOG that would be of use. I tried a few other breeds and ended up with a Border Collie because they were the best for the WORK I needed done. When I started to breed (many years down the road) I bred for WHAT the Border Collie was suppose to be bred for ... I didn't try and invent a "new way" of breeding. That doesn't mean I don't always try to breed for better dogs ... BUT I use the STANDARD of WORK. I've always said if there was a better dog for "the job" I wouldn't own Border Collies ... but there is NOT anything that comes close (BECAUSE of the way they have been bred).

 

This is the difference I see with "some" agility people. First they got into agility and then they bought a Border Collie (because "that breed" was winning) but instead of appreciating these dogs ... they decided they could "improve" them. So, they "invent" a new standard and breed for something that suits their sport - "in other words" they're not breeding for whats best for the BREED but what is best for THEM!

 

If everyone put what's best for the breed first .... we wouldn't be having this discussion.

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Amen, Candy.

 

We got the dogs because we saw what they could do to help us manage our cattle on the farm. Everything else they do for us is just icing on the cake.

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ETA:

 

I meant to say that I thought he blew the contact, too. I didn't re-watch it, but it sure looked like it to me.

 

I also thought he either blew the contact or barely got a toe in. Too close for comfort for me. Never give the judge something to think about.

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If everyone put what's best for the breed first .... we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

 

Amen, Candy. :)

 

 

 

When the glass is full

drink up, drink up

this may be the last time we see this cup.

If God wanted us sober

he'd knock the glass over

so while it is full

we drink up.

 

Here's to the working Border Collie! doG bless 'is furry 'ead. An' you too Shaun! (I'm not as drunk as some thinkle peep I am!)

 

Come on, sheepdoggers, only 215 more posts to go to match the "What is the Point of This?" thread. We could all be forever enshrined in glory!

 

I'm resisting the urge to pop a Guinness and start a rousing round of "Henry the Eighth I am, I am ...." :lol:

 

~ Gloria

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OK. I went back to page 22 and watched the 2 agility videos that Serena posted. The ones from Crufts. I did not weep tears of awe. I did not get chills. I did not hold my breath. I looked at the clock once... It was a bunch of dogs charging around a roomful of equipment. They barked some. They ran very fast. OK.

 

Then I went and dug up this video, which I've watched probably 40 times. Each time, all the way through.

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=31519

It's airbear's Lou, working sheep in a paddock. This had my full attention. Again. This is a dog expressing the moves of his ancestors.

 

When I have my USBCHA Nationls DVDs on I sometimes hold my breath until the room starts getting gray. I fall over furniture when I'm crossing the room because I can't take my eyes off the dogsheephandler. I weep at the end of good runs. I wept a lot watching those dogs work on those DVDs... And they were working. The same as if they were on the back 40 at home.

 

Sorry.

 

I hope all of the people who do agility have a good time and challenge themselves and their dogs. I hope they are proud of their accomplishments. I'm sure they work very hard to be good at what they do.

 

But I'd rather watch Lou or Riggs or those Kelpies in Australia moving sheep. It isn't just what they do - it's what they are.

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It isn't just what they do - it's what they are.

And it's what the working-bred Border Collie *is*, that allows it to *do* so many things so well. And it is what it is because its ancestors were selected for the work.

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And you know what, Geonni and Sue? Other than the OP, I don't think there is one person who posted in these 29 pages, who disagrees with you. Even us simple people with our agility dogs charging around...

 

Now I'm off to work some sheep! Happy weekend, y'all.

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And it's what the working-bred Border Collie *is*, that allows it to *do* so many things so well. And it is what it is because its ancestors were selected for the work.

Sadly, there are people out there that feels heritage isn't important. It's like they have this "that was then, this is now" attitude. And anyone who tries to preserve the stockdog instinct isn't living in the 21st century. I don't know if you remember that conformation Yahoo group but someone posted on there one breed isn't needed for bulls anymore, another breed isn't used for going down into holes for something and they couldn't see why border collies still needed their herding instinct. Little do they know...

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What I wonder is this: Who is supposed to ensure that only the absolute "best of the best of the best" - let's make it simple and say that's by your particular definition of who those people are - are actually breeding? Who, exactly is supposed to put them "out" if they do not meet this high elite standard?

If I'm reading some of these posts correctly, there's already working lines/agility lines breedings so my question is: Why isn't the agility community/breeders policing themselves now?

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I was annoyed, too, at the person who said you were lying about your disability, but the point of Mum24dog's post seemed to be that people shouldn't argue with you because you have an "admitted" learning disability and were thus somehow less capable of participating in the discussion or defending yourself than others.

 

I'm amazed that this thread is still being perpetuated. Also kicking myself for not resisting replying to this.

 

Nowhere did I suggest that Serena isn't capable of taking part in a discussion. My beef is with people who don't recognise that people can be different from them - not inferior, just different. I do have a tendency to wade in in defence of anyone I think is being treated unfairly whether I agree with them or not.

 

I feel like I'm labouring under a disability on here sometimes because I speak a different language - English English - and we often express ourselves differently.

 

I expected to have ruffled some feathers but I wasn't going to revisit the thread because everything in it has been done to death numerous times. How many different ways can the same thing be reiterated?

 

I only came back on out of curiosity to see just how the thread had doubled in length when everything had been said already and I spotted that I had apparently been "flamed" so went back to see what had been said. Nothing unexpected, I find.

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I went back and looked at Will Rolfe's video (back on page 18 or 19 I think, I forgot to make a note of which page). It does show he won for that particular course, but I'm not seeing that he's uncommon for an agility border collie. There are a number of places where he actually showed less efficiency than I'm used to seeing in border collies.

 

You have to understand that here our dogs rarely run on artificial surfaces like they find at Crufts and handlers rarely go all out the way they would in normal competition. Crufts really isn't a good demonstration of the abilities of any British agility dog. I know a couple of top handlers who refuse to compete there.

 

I don't know Will and his dog but I do know Katie and Copper in the other video very well and that was nothing like their best standard, and it was their first time at Crufts.

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Spot the difference -

 

Tia from an accidental farm litter (with many successful siblings from other matings of the same sire and dam) -

 

 

Wish from one of the most sought after agility lines at present (not as controllable as Tia) -

 

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