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Bridging division between Working Border Collie Tradition vs. “Working” Agility Dogs+Other Disciplines


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And this is true of just about anything, not just dogs, huh? As a person who freelances for a living, I can tell you that the "it's not really worth that much to me" attitude hurts everyone. It would be nice if people would consider the value of people's time and not always think they should get something for nothing, but I'm sure there'd be no convincing some people of that.

 

I find it interesting that people have so many expectations of what a dog needs to be for them, but then if they actually find such a dog, it should be free because it's a failure at whatever its first endeavor was. And then they come up with all sorts of reasons why the dog should be free. All well and good, but I still say that if people want free dogs they shouldn't also expect perfection. Obviously I come from a place with a different paradigm....

 

The dog I mentioned earlier? Two years old. Well socialized. Loves *all* people. Loves tug and fetch. Has good manners and is house trained. Hell of a recall. He lives in the house. I'm not all that thrilled with the way he works. I have no idea whether he could learn a sport and do well at it, although he at least understands some of the reward systems used for such games. He's something of a washout for *my* purposes, but he should be free to you? I don't see how that works.

 

J.

 

*nods* Just like I find it odd that people balk at $200 adoption fees for rescues. Do they think the rescue didn't put any time, effort, health care or training on the dog?

 

ETA: Sorry, I didn't read the previous page well enough, and Sue already brought this up. Carry on!

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People frequently groan when I trot out this old chestnut, but it is nonetheless often true.

When people get something for free they tend to view it as being worth every cent they paid for it.

 

and then,

"FWIW, this is why some people get their hackles up when generalities are presented about "ribbon chasers" or "out of control idiot agility dogs." These truths are not universal."

 

First, I'm not assuming this is aimed at me... :)

 

These certainly are not universally true. I agree whole-heartedly. But... there are people out there that are single-point-focus ribbon-chasers. Just as there are people involved in activities that award ribbons that could care less about the ribbons.

 

And there are out of control agility dogs. You can see them at any agility event. There are also calm and focused, revved-up-but-under-control dogs there too. And to be honest, with the out of control ones - I don't see them as idiots. It's the one holding the leash who looks like an idiot to me. And for all I know, that out of control dog at ringside at an agility trial may spend most of his time snoozing with his feet in the air when he's at home. It's just that I wouldn't be caught dead in a ditch with a dog that acted like that, and I don't care if it doesn't bother the person standing next to me. Different stokes...

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Lol, Blackdawgs, I do applaud your bringing up the city-slicker, suburbia issues, and thank you for describing how individuals weigh and consider what options to make.

 

Blackdawgs wrote:I don't get the anomosity, I have been more than polite.

 

We live in 2 different worlds, but at least we can attempt to be polite and not make ASSumptions regarding other people, eh?

 

Folks, adoption, pet-owning, hobbies, interpretations of what real work is, these are all completely separate from the hot-bed controversy of who gets to breed versus why someone who chose their heart dog and chose a dog for their particular lifestyle. Unlike the screaming and flaming bridge, there really is a bridge, the bridge of compassion, understanding and respect. Kelliepup mentioned some great stories of rescue. But again, everyone has to come to some unique, individual standpoint and working with their dogs personalities, genes and brains. For me, there is a very special art to both agility and the sheepherding work. Granted our agility falls way short on the deep complexity involved with sheepherding...but when you reach a certain level and standards in agility, there is a real skill set, real intense work involvement, when you train other people, work with others, it becomes community involvement with very heavy responsibilities and yes, consequences.

 

We can disagree firmly and remain unswaying, but screaming and yelling ain't gonna work. And Blackdawgs only had very few posts, all polite, and got somewhat flamed, and so did Mums24dog, just a single compassionate line and got flamed....I don't appreciate those who say go ruin your own dogs! No border collie owner who deeply loves the breed is gonna be able to tolerate this! Ha! as if I ruined my dog. It is a terrible and wrong thing to say!

 

We just all need to understand that we all treasure our dogs and do the best job we can do for them. Many of us understand our place as just pet owners. I am a pet owner who loves my dog and who has a real passion to excel at agility even though I won't accomplish anything more than "hobby-level". And I will continue to want to change an embedded organization like AKC even though in my lifetime I will only be getting one border collie and not until Eluane passes on will I get another. That is why for single dog owners, getting the perfect close match, finding our heart dog is so important, we go to the compassionate and committed and responsible breeder to help us find our heart dog. It is true we can adopt, but there are those like myself who crave the baby puppy stages as well...

 

Someone mentioned about the Russian Silver Fox Breeding, and that is why I too, believe we agility folks need the sheepherding traditions and lines. Anytime you focus on just one intensity of sport, you may lose out on another quality. The B.C. has to be trained to be as intelligent as it can manage in its environment. For us city slickers, it's how do I get my dog to be the best and achieve the highest level it can be to honor our roots. And car-chasing, rabbit-herding has killed many a young B.C., as Blackdawgs referred to. A city-slicker has to evaluate what resources are available to them in the locale they are living at. This has been the most critical factor on why I have to do AKC. There are simply not enough available trials in my locale. It costs me $600 per year and $720 per year for club membership and no, it is not AKC funded, it's the only club available to me for agility training. The only money I've got left is for my Border Collie. As a freelancer I am one of those millions of Americans who've got no health insurance, and every month I have to pay $184 alone for my learning disability medication. Everything leftover goes to Eluane. Dog parks with Eluane's hypersensitive stomach issues (from a terrible breeder), those have health risks too. As a city-slicker, I knew that Eluane as a border collie needed a place to run, to be really and truly mentally stimulated and challenged, and the club provides her all of this. We make the choices in our lives for very specific reasons. Are they always the dream ideal world. No! But I did the best I could!

 

.... Breeding and pet owning are completely different things. An outstanding agility champion handler does want good lines, and a very intelligent great Border Collie too. Just by posting this thread itself, at least I'm making people aware of the sheepherding community's stance, why they feel the way they do, and yet to try to be fair to the agility world. The sheepherding passion and commitment for doing the right thing is so understandable. Likewise we should also remember about breeding for physically stable lines that do not have hip dysplasia and vision issues. Hip dysplasia and eye vision problems have impact on both working lines and agility lines. Those health problems still need to be bred out. You see loving a dog whether adoption, washouts (not my words but others' words), having a pet Border Collie can work wonderfully as pet owners, but not for breeding- to maintain the highest controls as possible. You see the heart of the Border Collie is so huge! they are so devoted that they will lay their lives down for us in countless cases. They will run with injury and things that can cause them pain and suffering. Hip dysplasia can cause significant pain and discomfort. Can we ask a 45 year old gifted piano player with onset of rheumatoid athritis to keep playing concert after concert? No....you see in each of these lines you have to consider the health, the overall well-being of the dog in their very special field of expertise.

 

And EGADS, how in the heck did we digress to free dogs. For the owner who loves their dog there is no price tag attached ever! Devoted rescue-ees will spend a fortune providing lovely homes with tons of classes or addressing any retraining or medical issues on the adopted dogs who need this particular care. Anyone who expects free or cheap???? ugh! There are indeed people who are poorer and can't afford as expensive of a Border Collie, that's all. Period. But no one expects free or cheap. Having a border collie demands 500% commitment...A fortune in time and heart is spent for our Border Collies.

 

Side note: thank you Grizel and the few, who gave me a chance...There is hope then for someone like me...

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People frequently groan when I trot out this old chestnut, but it is nonetheless often true.

When people get something for free they tend to view it as being worth every cent they paid for it.

 

I have a dog, whose purchase price was exactly $0. Her main vet record is the thickness of the phone book of a small city. I easily have 5 figures in her and don't begrudge her one cent. I also have a mint in my $100 shelter dog, but probably not 5 figues. Yet.

 

I know many many people with freebies and former ($45-$100) shelter dogs who buy food for their dogs and pay vet expenses before buying food and medical care for themselves. I live in a world where companion animals are valued over and above any monetary sum.

 

I've said previously that I consider money for vet expenses to be flushed down the toilet. I have taken my dogs to many training classes and spent countless hours training them independently of any classes; I can't even begin to attach a monetary value to this, so I don't.

 

I am personally uncomfortable with the buying and selling of companion animals. To me, this is like selling a human member of my family. My animals have so much sentimental value to me, I could not even begin to attach a monetary value, so I simply do not even think in those terms.

 

To me, a rehome is pretty much a rescue and if the dog has herding training, but could not be used as a herding dog PERIOD (according to the owner), I see this as time and money down the toilet, just like vet expenses. If the dog has utility as a herding dog in some capacity, of course I would expect to pay for this training. But, to me a herding dog that could not be used as herding dog, but had some basic obedience is really no different than my pet dogs with basic obedience. The basic obedience is a expense that I personally write off (like the vet bills).

 

I am currently in the market for a puppy and yes, I do expect to pay for a BC puppy, although I would have no trouble whatsoever finding a million free pitbull/mix pups around here. I think that the prices that I have been quoted for puppies are very fair (and are much less than the herding washoout that I spoke to the person about).

 

Although it may seem that way, it is never my intention to take advantage of someone or get something for nothing or steal somone's dog. I just tend not to think of companion animals (dogs and cats) as commodities to be bought and sold. It is easier for me to think in terms of donations.

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Although it may seem that way, it is never my intention to take advantage of someone or get something for nothing or steal somone's dog. I just tend not to think of companion animals (dogs and cats) as commodities to be bought and sold. It is easier for me to think in terms of donations.

 

 

I don't think it seems that way at all, and I share your philosophy on companion animals.

 

I've heard a lot of breeders over the years talk about what they should rightly expect to get for a dog. I knew one who adjusted their price based on the car someone drove up in. These are hobby breeders who don't pay taxes on their 'sales', because it is presumed that hobby gains are offset by hobby losses. Of course they are going to want to recoup their losses--who wouldn't--but if you enter "the market" then you're subject to its laws.

 

The unfortunate fact is that if breeders are selling dogs, these dogs are being treated as a commodity of sorts--and I don't mean that in a negative or disparaging sense--and they are engaging in an activity that is subject to the law of supply and demand.

 

That's just a fact, all appeals to emotion aside.

 

Having said that, I think it is more than reasonable to pay for a dog.

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To me, a rehome is pretty much a rescue and if the dog has herding training, but could not be used as a herding dog PERIOD (according to the owner), I see this as time and money down the toilet, just like vet expenses. If the dog has utility as a herding dog in some capacity, of course I would expect to pay for this training. But, to me a herding dog that could not be used as herding dog, but had some basic obedience is really no different than my pet dogs with basic obedience. The basic obedience is a expense that I personally write off (like the vet bills).

IMO, unless the owner is getting ready to put a bullet in the dog's head or has horribly neglected the dog, a rehome is not a rescue. And rescue's can not afford to "write off" vet bills. If you want to consider adoption fees as a donation, that's fine, as long as you pay the full amount. But every time anyone tries to negotiate an adoption fee, it raises a red flag; If they can't afford the adoption fee, will they be able to afford the vet bills? Will they keep the dog utd on HW preventive? Flea protection? So please, do not compare rehomes with rescues. They are not the same thing.

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IMO, unless the owner is getting ready to put a bullet in the dog's head or has horribly neglected the dog, a rehome is not a rescue.

 

There is a lot of variation in how the term "rescue" is used. Some do use it only as you do.

 

I use it in a broader sense. A dog that has, in some way, lost its home and is in need of a new one is a dog that I consider a rescue, even if the dog was never in any direct danger. So, a stray on the street, a dog in a shelter, a dog in a rescue, a dog in foster with a rescue, etc. Whether money changes hands or not in this, I refer to the process as "adoption".

 

I consider a rehome to be direct from the dog's owner or breeder. If money changes hands in this, I refer to it as a "purchase".

 

So, I would typically consider a herding washout to be a purchase. Someone owns the dog, whether that be the breeder or a prior purchaser.

 

I know, too, that there are people who consider all rehomes to be "rescues" and all ways of obtaining a dog "adoption", also.

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No, a rehome is not a rescue, but I would expect to pay about the same amount for a rehome (untrained, except for basic pet obedience)as a rescue. Some amount to help offset expenses--under $350 or so

(and yes, I realize that some rescues lose their butts financially on individual dogs)

 

And, no, I've never tried to negotiate the price of a rescue. When I adopt a dog, I expect to have immediate vet expenses and I do take this into account. Regardless of anything that the rescue or whoever said that they did as far as vet work, the dog is still going to see my vet within days of coming home. You may work with people who skimp on vet expenses, but I am not one of them.

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As a sidetrack, I think there is semantic confusion about the term Rescue sometimes.

 

Both of my Papillons were adopted from a Rescue, but Swiffer came here as a 7 week old puppy and the only other home she had was for about 2 weeks. So technically, she is a rescue dog but I really never thought of her that way. To me shes a puppy I raised who I happened to buy from a Rescue.

 

Ross was 6 when I brought him home. He was given to me by his most recent of 5 owners because they had "tried him out" for a few months and he was too much dog for them. He had bounced around a few homes being either too scared, too high energy or to slow, or not sufficient on stock, etc, but he never went to a Rescue. In my mind I rescued him and thought of him as such.

 

I rehomed a parrot, and I hope his new owners didn't think he needed rescued.

 

So I think sometimes a rehomed dog is most certainly rescued, and sometimes they are not.

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Hey, I have an idea- can we ship all the Irish free collie mixes, "won't work so take it now" sheepdogs and 50 euro puppies over there, and get a couple of dozen pretty-coloured death row pit bulls back?

Or do you guys have the ridiculous number of border collies in rescue too?

 

 

 

We can disagree firmly and remain unswaying, but screaming and yelling ain't gonna work. And Blackdawgs only had very few posts, all polite, and got somewhat flamed, and so did Mums24dog, just a single compassionate line and got flamed....I don't appreciate those who say go ruin your own dogs! No border collie owner who deeply loves the breed is gonna be able to tolerate this! Ha! as if I ruined my dog. It is a terrible and wrong thing to say!

 

There is hope then for someone like me...

 

I believe the person talking about 'ruining' dogs was referring to breeding for sports, not participating in them. I could be wrong.

 

If I 'flamed' Mum24dog, remember, as you said yourself, when the talk turns to disabilities people get sensitive. The other posters on the same subject seemed compassionate enough, and I don't think anyone could have read those posts as flaming.

 

I was annoyed, too, at the person who said you were lying about your disability, but the point of Mum24dog's post seemed to be that people shouldn't argue with you because you have an "admitted" learning disability and were thus somehow less capable of participating in the discussion or defending yourself than others. I brought a friend and my sibling, both with learning disabilities in to read it in case I was overreacting and they interpreted it in the same way. You are as capable as anyone else of participating in this discussion. I can see no difference in your posts which would signal your learning disability and no reason for Mum24dog to use it in her argument.

 

So many people with learning disabilities, including both of us obviously, have struggled or are struggling with self-esteem issues because of the way others treat them that this is not something to be taken lightly. My sibling's reaction to that particular post: "I have tried all my life to get people not to treat me like I'm an idiot, or like I'm incapable, because I have a disability. It's not kind, and it's not helpful."

 

 

Never, ever let anyone tell you you are less capable than others because you happen to have a disability. Even if they do so out of the best of intentions.

 

Back on topic, and on to my other hobby horse- generally companies react to outrage because they're afraid it'll hurt their bottom line. If you want the company to change you have to hit them with money rather than just pr. Think of modern companies (often chocolate and clothes companies) who use goods from sweatshops or produced by slave labour. Unless people boycott the product they won't change the practice, and that's when humans are involved. Petitions and outrage will not work unless backed up with boycotts and loss of $ to the company.

 

The AKC or KC have yet to respond in any meaningful way to puppy mills other than take their money. To get them to change we have to make it less profitable for them to take the puppy millers' money than to get rid of those reliable sources of revenue. This means a boycott.

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As a sidetrack, I think there is semantic confusion about the term Rescue sometimes.

----

So I think sometimes a rehomed dog is most certainly rescued, and sometimes they are not.

 

 

^^This.

 

Missy was given to me by her breeder but she needed rescuing. I got Kenzi through a rescue group but by the time I thought about getting her she really didn't need rescuing. She was in a good place, she was young, adaptable, pretty much a blank slate. Just a nice dog that needed a new home.

 

I wonder if people are more likely to go the rescue route for an adult dog but want a pup from a breeder because of the increased moral value our society places on rescuing a dog. IE, we'll pay a rescue money for an adult dog because taking in a dog is the right thing to, whereas if we get a dog from a breeder we want that blank slate puppy instead of the older dog because we don't want an older dog that isn't a blank slate or may be damaged in some way. If we're going to BUY a dog, we want it as perfect as possible. Even thought that dog might have more going for it in some ways than a rescue would (ie, known parentage, drive level, temperament, etc)

 

(not referring to the situation you spoke about Blackdawgs as it sounds like the breeder was placing an high value on the dog without showing why the dog had the value)

 

And also, if you want a nice dog, get out there and form some relationships with working breeders! I bought Kipp for probably half of his actual value because the breeder had taken him back but didn't have time to work with him. He just wanted him to go to a good home where he'd have something constructive to do.

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I have a dog, whose purchase price was exactly $0. Her main vet record is the thickness of the phone book of a small city. I easily have 5 figures in her and don't begrudge her one cent. I also have a mint in my $100 shelter dog, but probably not 5 figues. Yet.

 

I know many many people with freebies and former ($45-$100) shelter dogs who buy food for their dogs and pay vet expenses before buying food and medical care for themselves. I live in a world where companion animals are valued over and above any monetary sum.

 

I've said previously that I consider money for vet expenses to be flushed down the toilet. I have taken my dogs to many training classes and spent countless hours training them independently of any classes; I can't even begin to attach a monetary value to this, so I don't...

 

...I am personally uncomfortable with the buying and selling of companion animals. To me, this is like selling a human member of my family. My animals have so much sentimental value to me, I could not even begin to attach a monetary value, so I simply do not even think in those terms.

 

Whatever you choose to call it - rescue, rehome, adoption or purchase - caring for even a healthy, well adjusted dog takes money. In the case of someone who makes a practice of finding good homes for dogs that need one, whether individually or from within a rescue organization, they are spending money, and the next dog through their hands will need to have money spent on it as well. Saying you adopted a dog from a rescue sounds more warm and fuzzy that saying you bought one. But from the perspective of the dog, or the person writing checks to take care of that dog until you take charge of it, the landscape is still the same, whatever you call it.

 

The fact is, however you feel about it, in this society a dog is property. And property has a monetary value. How much time and effort has been put into the dog may or may not alter it's assessable value, but personally I think the person putting in that money and effort should be entitled to recoup some if not all of their investment, whether it be a working-bred dog that didn't make the cut or a mutt off the street. And I don't think there should be any stigma attached to the person for naming a figure for it.

 

There are of course, intangible values attached to a dog - particularly one that you have come to know and love. These intangibles, such as love, loyalty, character and personality may increase the worth of a dog to an individual, but it is not possible to put a dollar figure on them. A dog standing in a run at a pound or shelter, in a foster home, or in the stall or kennel on a sheep farm all have an assessable dollar value based on the money and other resources put into them. That is the component you buy, whatever semantic bows you tie around the check. The rest is yours for the asking, if the dog is able, and you are worthy.

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Well yes, her previous owner called me asking if I would please take Gláma of his hands, he was thinking of putting her down. Only reason, not in health to train her. Fine dog, good pedigree, but hardly trained, non spayed.

She didn´t cost me anything, I regard her now by far my most valuable dog, in more than one aspect.

Is she a rescue? Hm, she rescued my stockdog career, that´s for sure :D

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IMO, unless the owner is getting ready to put a bullet in the dog's head or has horribly neglected the dog, a rehome is not a rescue. And rescue's can not afford to "write off" vet bills. If you want to consider adoption fees as a donation, that's fine, as long as you pay the full amount. But every time anyone tries to negotiate an adoption fee, it raises a red flag; If they can't afford the adoption fee, will they be able to afford the vet bills? Will they keep the dog utd on HW preventive? Flea protection? So please, do not compare rehomes with rescues. They are not the same thing.

 

 

 

Well said.

 

(although I do not in any way think Blackdawgs was suggesting negotiating price with a rescue)

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I wonder if people are more likely to go the rescue route for an adult dog but want a pup from a breeder because of the increased moral value our society places on rescuing a dog. IE, we'll pay a rescue money for an adult dog because taking in a dog is the right thing to, whereas if we get a dog from a breeder we want that blank slate puppy instead of the older dog because we don't want an older dog that isn't a blank slate or may be damaged in some way. If we're going to BUY a dog, we want it as perfect as possible. Even thought that dog might have more going for it in some ways than a rescue would (ie, known parentage, drive level, temperament, etc)

 

I think you might be on to something here.

 

I'm probably the exception in terms of wanting a blank slate/puppy. I usually prefer a young adult, and I will pay a puppy price for one. Years ago, I bought a German Shepherd (German lines) as an adult to keep my Amercan show GSD (that I raised from a pup) company. The adult dog was worth every penny I paid for him...Sound temperament, beautiful dog. And this is a dog I had neutered; not a show prospect (good sound GSD's of German lines didn't stand a chance in the AKC breed ring in those days).

 

ETA: And probably still don't!

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I usually prefer a young adult, and I will pay a puppy price for one.

Well I agree, but for say a year old dog that I could immediately start on sheep, or even better has been started, I would expect (and be prepared) to pay significantly more than puppy price.

I consider myself having been very lucky with the Gláma deal.

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Well I agree, but for say a year old dog that I could immediately start on sheep, or even better has been started, I would expect (and be prepared) to pay significantly more than puppy price.

I consider myself having been very lucky with the Gláma deal.

 

Well that makes sense, agreed. I would no doubt have paid more for him if he had been started in Schutzhund (his sire and dam were both titled). However, he had been sold as a puppy to a family who found him to be too much dog for them once he reached adulthood. Even so, he was so easy to train. What an amazing dog he was.

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Serena, don't say you HAVE to do AKC.

 

It's the only game currently in my town for obedience and rally, but I'm still CHOOSING to compete in it.

 

You don't HAVE to compete. Yeah it's enjoyable and fun and a social event. But you could just train and not compete. You could do as many agility courses as you wanted to. You could train Eluane up to whatever level you pleased, to whatever standard you pleased. And new organizations do hold shows, they just need more people interested in an area to take off. There are even more options for you with agility, because it's getting more popular all the time.

 

I CHOOSE to compete in AKC obedience and rally. You CHOOSE to compete in AKC obedience.

 

It's convenient, it's social, and I enjoy competing. I'm not going to claim otherwise. No one is forcing me, nor are they forcing you. The AKC is what you know and it's easy to get and stay involved.

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Julie, Blackdawg has a very important and crucial points regarding the talent, movement and drive skills specifically needed for agility.

 

Blackdawg wrote:Here's the thing....Suppose an agility ghuru called you and said that s/he had a 1 year old dog with good working bloodlines that was not working out for agility and should never do agility, but may make a good pet or herding prospect....What would this dog be worth to you?

 

Sure the agility trainer's time and training has value, but it won't be used because the dog can't do agility. And you don't want to do agility anyway, you want a stock dog.

 

Yes, the dog has basics that are unrelated to agility, but the toy drive and focus instilled since puppyhood may actually be detrimental to stock work. The dog may come around with time, but it's a risk. What is this risk worth to you? And if the price of the dog is the same as a puppy, why not just get the puppy and train it your way from the beginning?

 

You see, folks, age, temperament, honing skills of agility has specific intensity levels and how the pup's talents can really be apparent- their natural gait, the way they use movement, their specific gait when they run or leap. What translates in agility is highly specific, just like herding skills are highly specific. Agility, unlike sheepherding, everything is not on waiting and holding off but intensity of tight turns. Think of it this way....The working sheepherding dog has a wide complexity of tasks given to it, and there are times when they must circle wide, wait and watch. In agility, one cannot "circle wide" or delay or hold off...The movements are restricted to as if the "sheep" were on the emergency fly and the dog must keep up with this constant intensity and constant rush and instantaneous thinking right up close to that "sheep"....The border collie in a sense is skimming right up to those hurdles, every dive and lean......just like a working border drives down when it has to chase down sheep that are going at full blast.....

 

Folks, please view these agility videos. The first one is what I call the one-in-a-million agility Border Collie that comes just once in a rare blue moon. This is the agility line that absolutely must be preserved. Brilliant thinking of the dog, how it cuts the corners and retrieves on the space. Extremely few agility Border Collies have that quick, that blazing, that tight....This dog somehow kept the best of the working dog mentality as well. See how it watches and how little movement the handler needs to propel him forward....This specific agility dog also out-thinks not only the rest of the agility dogs at the Crufts competition, but in the followup video, you will see other Crufts competitors. Three are real working border collies who work sheep - it's in the announcements, but they blend in with the rest of the border collie agility dogs. One of them has definitely lost a tiny fraction of focus as well because the handler tensed up too much in a key area. You see to get the best lines you have to know and recognize the brilliant agility factor if one is breeding a champion agility line and depending on real working lines for the intelligence. To have that passion, the "fire" as well, the drive to work with its handler, spatial intelligence, honed movement this!!! is What makes that one-in-a-million agility dog....Note that gem of a dog is one of the tiniest and most petite out of the border collies, and trying to jump full height for it is extremely difficult, but every movement of it is soooo beautiful, flawless, precise--the drive and how cloooooooose it skims the hurdles and leans inward, how tight the turns and distance recapture, shows the depth of the dog's intelligence. It understands risks and how critical speed and time is somehow; it's that keen, but not all working border collies have that same edge if you look back at the second link....Here is the apparent line that shows how genes/intelligence/working drive make a tremendous impact.

 

 

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I wonder if people are more likely to go the rescue route for an adult dog but want a pup from a breeder because of the increased moral value our society places on rescuing a dog.

 

For me the difference is training. Basically, I want any dog that joins my household to have as little training as possible. Every one of my rescues has come in with almost zero training and that's exactly how I like it.

 

A "herding washout" has training, so that is not a dog that I have any interest in purchasing.

 

I may well adopt a dog from a rescue that has some training if there is a connection and I know that is the right dog in spite of that fact. But I would be far happier to find the right dog with no training.

 

While an adolescent or adult rescue is not a "blank slate" in the sense of life experience, he or she can be when it comes to training, and that is one thing that I look for in a new addition to our household.

 

Sure, there is an aspect of wanting to give a dog in need of a second chance a good home. I guess there is a moral component to that since I do believe that is a good thing to do. But I don't consider purchasing a herding washout to be a bad thing. That can certainly be very good for many. That's just not what I'm looking for in a potential training and sport partner. I want to do as much of the training as possible. So, if I'm going to purchase, I'm going to be looking for an untrained puppy.

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Julie, Blackdawg has a very important and crucial points regarding the talent, movement and drive skills specifically needed for agility.

 

 

 

You see, folks, age, temperament, honing skills of agility has specific intensity levels and how the pup's talents can really be apparent- their natural gait, the way they use movement, their specific gait when they run or leap. What translates in agility is highly specific ..... You see to get the best lines you have to know and recognize the brilliant agility factor if one is breeding a champion agility line. Spatial intelligence makes a tremendous impact too. What makes that one-in-a-million agility dog is the intelligence of honed movement....Note that gem of a dog is one of the tiniest and most petite out of the border collies, and trying to jump full height for it is extremely difficult, but every movement of it is soooo beautiful, flawless, precise--the drive and how cloooooooose it skims the hurdles and leans inward, how tight the turns and distance recapture, shows the depth of the dog's intelligence. It understands risks and how critical speed and time is somehow; it's that keen, but not all working border collies have that same edge if you look back at the second link....Here is the apparent line that shows h

 

Here's a thought (and I'm not being sarcastic but perhaps a bit wry), why not take everything you like about agility dogs of all different breeds and, true to the Victorian tradition, combine those breeds into one "designer dog" that is dedicated to agility?

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Here's a thought (and I'm not being sarcastic but perhaps a bit wry), why not take everything you like about agility dogs of all different breeds and, true to the Victorian tradition, combine those breeds into one "designer dog" that is dedicated to agility?

 

Most likely the Border Collies would beat them.

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Because Ejano, other dogs just ain't smart enough, dog intelligence tests prove that all other dogs cannot compare with the B.C. intelligence....No agility dog can ever! touch a Border Collie. What dog can have name and object recognition of 500 words vocabulary and more (National Geographic Special)....No dog!!! You only breed the very top agility champion lines and only!!! from handlers who've got decades of experience in teaching agility, training for agility, who've got real proven titles and ranks and only if they keep close friends and contacts with the sheepherding community. If anyone fall short they are O-U-T!!!! All other agility dogs need to ideally come from the working border collie lines, because having a wide range of complex tasks, allows the B.C. to exercise those brain neurons and intelligence factors. The intelligence factor is what makes the border collie the best agility dog....No other breed can even touch or come close to what a Border Collie can do....

 

Any "wry" folks out there need to go back to that first video...All that power, intelligence, and brilliance in that one dog should be apparent to all who view this dog and that this dog did not lose any of its working Border Collie heritage. It has its own unique style that really is outstanding and stands above any agility Border Collie. This dog has moved beyond even the training- and into the gene realm that comes once in a blue moon....

 

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