Donald McCaig Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 A beagle with treats http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016815911100181X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 I only had time to read the abstract as I need to dash off to try to teach college freshmen to write , but it makes me feel not nearly so guilty that I just don't have the time to work all 4 dogs every single day, Thanks, A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Well, I'm just about to engage in my own (uncontrolled) experiment. My young dog is a bit of a wild child at the beginning of each lesson, struggling to find balance, playing a bit of a windshield washer, and running up the sheep's derrieres. He's very, very keen, and his whole demeanor speaks "at LAST!!!". After his first "go", his brain seems to click into gear, and he does MUCH better (at pace and balance alike, as well as with his "lie downs") during his second try. He usually only gets lessons 1x-2x/week, so I was going to leave him with his trainer for a full week in hopes that getting worked twice each day would help reinforce the good stuff. Of course I suspect he's never going to want to come home... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 He's going to say, "Lynn - who?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 I'm with you Anna. Lots of training sessions just doesn't suit my personality, so it's good to know I'm not a total screw up by choosing the "less is more" route! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 He's going to say, "Lynn - who?" Sue, you know him so well - and you've never even met him in the flesh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 I think that breaks give the dog a chance to process the information. I know that with SAR training I'll just let up on something for a couple weeks if it's not clicking for the dog. For instance Kenzi was having some issues with directional sendouts so I pretty much quit that for a couple weeks. I'd have her run one direction a couple time a week and that was it. Last week I decided to try the whole course again. In a new spot. After a 2 week break she was HOT and nailed everything! I was quite impressed. I usually work Kipp on search problems 2 or 3 times a week. It keeps him hungry for the work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 This is very good news for me, as my training schedule can best be described as "intermittent". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 When I took Dan out to Anna's last February, and we were trying to cram everything we could into just two weeks (because we thought that would be our only opportunity), I could not tell which way Dan was more exhausted - mentally or physically. If we get to go again this February, we are going to take it a bit easier on Dan - and maybe on me! He will also be more mature (I hope) and more experienced to begin with. Some top trainers are great believers in short sessions, with plenty of thought time in between. Sometimes, though, circumstances dictate that you take your training when and how you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sluj Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Let's not forget; the study *was* done on Beagles. I agree with this I think that breaks give the dog a chance to process the information. though I suspect the optimal time interval will vary by dog and breed. Lynn - I'm sure Duncan'll miss having you to show off to! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyTDogs Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Let's not forget; the study *was* done on Beagles. Laboratory Beagles no less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Let's not forget; the study *was* done on Beagles. I suspect the optimal time interval will vary by dog and breed. Lynn - I'm sure Duncan'll miss having you to show off to! LOL, Sharon - I suspect they couldn't use Border collies because they learn things so fast that sometimes it's hard to time! (The phrase "not experimentally accessible" springs to mind.) Whereas Beagles, on the other hand... well, while they're not Basenjis, they ARE pretty far from Border collies on the "speed of learning" spectrum. I'm with you, I think the optimal time interval will vary by dog and breed. And yes, it is fun watching how pleased Duncan is with himself after a session working sheep. "What a GOOD dog am I!" is written all over his body language. Even when it doesn't deserve to be there... So I'm sure he'll show off to his trainer with equal glee. I very much enjoyed this article. Makes me feel better about not being able to train five days per week. What I HAVE found interesting is how much better Duncan sometimes is after a week or two off. Far from having regressed, it's almost as if he's been thinking about it during the intervening period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItsADogsLyfe Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 I don't think testing done on Beagles could be applied to working Border Collies. I do agree however that too much training can be a not so good thing. They can only absorb so much at a time and I think (especially working Border Collies) benefit from time off to "think" about things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Hum, this is my situation. my dogs must work every day or my sheep can't eat. There are a few times during the year when work is less and during the worst part of the winter they may get a week off. But there is always moving other people stock, hauling and shearing. This makes for some long days. This morning we moved two flocks out to the land. And then we walked back. One flock will come in this evening. One will be started on forage now that our little false spring is almost done. I have found that the dogs want to go with me and work every time they can. But they know this is practical work. It makes common sense to them. I found when we do practical common sense work and practice what would be good stockmanship then I do better at the trials. In some ways I am not training so much as accomplishing a job together but then I am training really. Does this make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 An additional 2 cents... While Border Collies and Beagles definitely have differences in learning, I think some basic fundamentals are the same - the biggest being that those dendrites in the brain need a chance to grow and mature. So the breaks in training make perfect sense no matter what the breed. Even if the beagles are going to take three times as long, need longer breaks and only graduate at a kindergarten level :D I also think there is a difference between training and work. Once a dog becomes skilled at something, it ceases to become the steep learning curve. Every day work is more practice and honing skills rather than learning them. I think real work tends to be less mechanical in nature and it allows the dog to really think and take charge of the situation - the dog is getting practice handling the stock, not just learning how to navigate the course. And it makes total sense that that would transfer to better performances at trials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthOfSouth Posted October 21, 2011 Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 I'm not convinced. However, my comments are based only on the abstract, because I'm not prepared to pay for the full paper. 1) The group size (11 dogs per group) is perhaps one-tenth of the size likely to produce scientifically meaningful results. 2) I wonder what was happening to those dogs between training sessions. If they were usually kept in cages or kennels, the dogs that were trained at weekly or bi-weekly intervals would be starved for attention (or even more starved for attention than the other poor dogs!) This would have effects on their learning that could not be extrapolated to working dogs or pets that are working or living with people on a day-to-day basis.. 3) I also wonder when training of the frequent session groups was completed, in comparison to the weekly/biweekly session groups. By the end of 18 weeks, had the researchers built a better rapport with the dogs and/or had more time to develop their own training skills. 4) How applicable is this to real life anyway? The dogs were taught and tested on "a traditional obedience task" (and why couldn't they just say what they taught the dogs, rather than using this jargon?) In real life, weteach our dogs many things concurrently, and they're learning all the time, even when we're not teaching them. In fact, if I took 18 weeks to teach my dogs a basic command, I'm sure they would have taught themselves a whole repertoire of undesirable behaviours in the interim (including ignoring that simple command.) I don't have any rules on scheduling training and this paper won't change that. My training methods are opportunistic. Sometimes I have a lot of time to devote to training my dogs, or circumstances provide a good opportunity for a specific lesson. At other times, I might not teach my dogs anything new for weeks or months. If a behaviour is bugging me, or if they really need to know something NOW, or if I have a specific goal, I make the time to train, even if it means training at midnight before I go to bed. My only rule is that my dog should know something or do something better at the end of the lesson that at the beginning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthOfSouth Posted October 21, 2011 Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 One more comment: In my opinion, using learning by laboratory animals as a model for learning by pets, working dogs/horses, free-range livestock or wild animals is like using learning by children in a 3rd world orphanage as a model for learning by children from a happy home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted October 21, 2011 Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 I had an epiphany a couple days ago. I know I can't have lived on left sided pastures in all my moves but I realized that all I ever send is to the comeby side. Dew really doesn't ever go to the away side. If I'm not careful in how I set her up for an away to me send she'll cross before she gets to her sheep. We aren't training at this time, no fencing and weeds that are still waist high makes training hard. But it also makes tending a bit tricky too. I live on a pretty steep hill, till you get to the top where it opens up to a nice flat 7 acre pasture or so but since I'm still dealing with foot rot a bit, I haven't wanted to take them up to the top, trying to save that pastures contamination. So for now we graze on about a 7 acre or so hill side. With the thought in my head that it's my fault I never send right, I set Dew up for an away to me send last night. I thought we were in a good position (it's always a blind outrun to start on both sides) so I sent her. She went about 100 yards and started to cross. So I called her name, got her looking back at me to the right and sent again. Took about 3 tries to get her convinced I really meant the other way. Then she went out beautifully. Guess what I'm getting at is I haven't actively trained Dew for months. We work everyday but she knows the routine. And once she knew we were in training mode she opened her brain and let me in. It was a good feeling to think she hadn't gotten stale and was ready to listen. So I hope intermittent training is OK. It's what we've got here and it's working for us But the epiphany that I had that I am a left side sender was huge, I promised myself I'd find a way to send her right everyday if at all possible! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted October 21, 2011 Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 This is pretty interesting this conversation. I think one thing that helps me is that there is no routine. The fields I use in summer may be the only exception but they are 80 acres and wooded on one end. As for the trails we use this is about 300 plus acres and there are many many different scenarios and other smaller fields at the ends of them. However where I falter is not being lazy about things like pace etc. However one thing I do love is Sweep the broom can problem solve because he is often out of my sight. And negotiating trails twists turns, forests, ponds, and fences that have gaps in them.Tho maybe over the years this will become a routine. The sheep and goats and cattle change as I broker, that has helped too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted October 21, 2011 Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 For right now, the only change in our routine is that DH is steadily brush hogging the hill, slowly cause there are lots of drainage ditches, makes no dif to the sheep or dogs but sure does a number on an old man on a tractor that he's not used to, so everyday the sheep find a new spot that isn't covered in weeds so deep it's a natural boundry. But soon the cutting will be done then we'll be routine again, cept that the season will change and maybe fencing...maybe??? What you have sounds very trying and very wonderful Tea. I would love to have time and area to do what you're doing. But time is so restricting. I only have an hour or 2 a day to devote to sheep and sometimes that's robbing Peter to Pay the sheep bills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted October 21, 2011 Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 Thanks, anyone is welcome to come visit. It is actually very rewarding but it is very time consuming, and in the winter cold. But what an interesting thing it is. The Island is gracious to let me do this. I wish I did better at the trials! However I am learning! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted October 21, 2011 Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 Tea I'd much rather do what you do daily than ever be good at trialing. One day maybe a visit....(dreamily seeing that vision in my head) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted October 21, 2011 Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 Oh I hope you can come! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyTDogs Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 One more comment: In my opinion, using learning by laboratory animals as a model for learning by pets, working dogs/horses, free-range livestock or wild animals is like using learning by children in a 3rd world orphanage as a model for learning by children from a happy home. That was my point....laboratory beagles are like a species unto themselves. Bred for generations to be placid & calm...and tolerant of a life in a kennel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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