juliepoudrier Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 ^^That looks like someone I might know/know of. All I gotta say is, well, nothing I guess. Serena, It's clear to me that you are determined to believe what you've chosen to believe about shape and how it relates to work. Several of us have tried to point out the faultiness of your interpretations. But since you seem to want to persist in believing your own conclusions, I will stop trying to explain why they don't make sense. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 And I see that you have not mentioned one European breed that still is used very much for herding, the French breed: Pyrenean Sheepdog - the valiant little guy in the lovely LGD-herder duo. Maja What a lot of dog in a little package! I wish I understood French... Also, I see what you mean about the sheep in the third video with the same sheep that the 2nd Shetland Sheepdog video featured. I have only really seen videos of Border Collies working sheep, and very little of other breeds. And I have never seen any dogs working in person. I'm just starting to get a glimmer of what's going on, so I think that if the dog is not working in the same style(s) as a Border Collie, it's easy for me to think that the dog is either not working or working poorly. I'm sure there are dogs, not Border Collies, that can get the job done, but I have no way to evaluate what they're doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Pity this topic seems to degenerate to a "look at how inferior those other breeds are compared to our border collies". It would be much more interesting to see good examples of those other breeds working stock with a different working style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Here is a another Sheltie ... um ... "working." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKZajzOCRk8 To me that was nothing like the Shetland Sheepdog working the geese. And what was with the heaving of treats every other second? Certainly the dog went down when she told it to, but it seemed quite oblivious to the sheep. If it ever stopped snowing liver treats for five minutes the dog might have showed a glimmer of interest. But, well, who knows? Does anyone know if there are any people out there breeding Shetland Sheepdogs for working ability only? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady's mom Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 different cattle herding style... Australian Cattle dogs going under the cattle... notice the lunging patterns http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq3oZgumMpo&feature=related BC prefers moving alongside From what I understand (which isn't much, since I'm still very new), the border collie has been bred to use a heading and gathering style as opposed to heeling, which australian cattle dogs use (that would be the lunging you're seeing). It's not so much a preference as it is something that they have been bred for over the centuries. And please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong everyone! I'd like to be able to give correct information when these sorts of things pop up in regular conversations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Pity this topic seems to degenerate to a "look at how inferior those other breeds are compared to our border collies". Has it? I guess my take is more that it is harder to *find* evidence (videos, for instance) of good working examples of many other breeds. More of these videos seem to me to be pointing out that people are considering animals to be good examples of "herding" when there is really very little stock sense or ability involved. We've certainly seen (on these boards) examples of many videos of Border Collies "herding" that were as poor examples of good/real work as any of these. It would be much more interesting to see good examples of those other breeds working stock with a different working style. And maybe it's just that a preponderance of videos posted on YouTube are of someone's pet or show-bred dog "herding" - people who are out there truly working good dogs may not be putting up relatively many videos. JMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 I dunno, I've seen some stuff on this thread that was very encouraging - the French dogs, the goose-herding Shetland Sheepdog, and the ones I put up of the Welsh Shepherds, the Beardies, and the Huntaways. There have also been some laughable vids, but I'd like to think that there are people out there who would like to see individuals of their breed do actual work. Though, as near as I have been able to tell, no one is breeding Corgis, rough or Smooth Collies, Shetland Sheepdogs, etc. to that end alone. When I was in AKC Collies I knew a woman who really tried hard with her smoothies, but she also bred for the breed ring, and I think that would have prevented her from ever developing a true stock dog. Anyway, I'm very much enjoying this thread. I love to see dogs working stock in a useful manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 This is not a very good picture of Tough, but when Tony McCallum was here back in December he worked with this dog for a few minutes, wish I had a video of it. The dog showed some ability and style that we had an idea was there but were not able to bring out. Tony referred to this dog as "an old bluey" if I recall correctly and mentioned that his working ability and quality was in there but that we had other issues that was preventing it from coming out...to much Dingo in him is what Tony said. Tony said that if we don't conciously breed away from dingo traits that the dingo will creep back in. He goes back to Wayne's original ranch dogs from 35 years back, never had any AKC influence. In dim light Tough resembles a coarse Kelpie. This is Tough's littermate, Wynonna Tony gave us some suggestions breeding selection wise, our biggest obstacle is that there are not many of these old type dogs around anymore, he said we wouldn't even have much luck importing, most everything is show type now or crossed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 This is a daughter of Tough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 A couple Kelpie videos... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 ...and a couple Beardie videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Pity this topic seems to degenerate to a "look at how inferior those other breeds are compared to our border collies". I agree that there has been a hiccup here and there in this direction, but I think that overall, the thread contains a lot of useful information.. It would be much more interesting to see good examples of those other breeds working stock with a different working style. Again, I agree. What would we say if a sheltie forum showed a bunch of "My FeeFee meets sheep for the first time" videos and then evaluated the herding style of BCs based on that. And I don't think we would accept the abundance of such videos a valid excuse . Geonni, I like the little guys too . I once watched a movie about a monster in a French village and this little Pyrenean stood up to it and barked at it . I was so impressed by it that I looked into the breed thinking of getting one like that :lol: (notice it was based on a fantasy movie with a mythical monster ). But after seeing some of these dogs in Poland I lost interest since they were too hyper for me, and I had no access to the real McCoy in France. I like that beardie too. And considering "getting the job done". I have a BMD, who of course was not trained to work stock as a herder, since she is supposed to work as an LGD. But BMD were meant to be a multipurpose dogs that worked as farm guardians and drovers. And it is very interesting how she tucks the stray sheep back within what she considered the proper perimeter, how she reprimands them when needed, how she moves them with her 80lb of sheer power when she decides they are in the wrong place (you don't need the eye then ). If I didn't have BCs I she would get most of the jobs done after some training. And then she works night shifts and keeps the boogeyman at bay . I only wish I could have a BMD in its true working version. Maja Edit: fixed quotation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Dear Theoretistas, Any dog can be useful on a small farm. When we were still tolling our sheep with corn and “Sheeby, sheeby sheeeee-by”!!!! I could lay my chesapeake Bay/Labrador Retriever in a gateway to keep the sheep from breaking out of the lot. ANY dog can be usefull and – depending on how you define usefullness, perhaps some cats and parrots could make the grade. Sheepdogs and cattledogs were created by livestock men to be useful on commercial livestock operations. What constitutes such an,operation varies: I’ve seen cattle herds of six in Kosovo and a seventy ewe flock justified a full time shepherd. In Australia minimum “commercial” might be 1200 ewes. I’ve seen dogs used commercially in poultry barns, livestock barns and hog operations too. In North America, almost all the dogs used in commercial operations are Border Collies. There are some Australian Shepherds and McNabs and – I am told – a very few Catahoulhas. German Lutheran Wisconsin dairy farmers use English Shepherds in significant numbers. In the UK, stockdogs are Border Collies and, rarely, Bearded Collies. As recently as the 1960’s there were pockets of regional collies but they’ve gone extinct. Stockdog generalists are replacing the regionalists and we're losing genetics we may wish we hadn't. In Australia, mostly Kelpies and a minority of Border Collies. In New Zealand Border Collies and Huntaways. There are useful farm dogs in other parts of the world. The landrace stockdog that was ancestor to the German Shepherd can still be found on farms. German Shepherds and Briards can still be found working though they’re rapidly being replaced by Border Collies. One can love Shetland Sheepdogs, Belgian Turverans, Australian Cattledogs, Lassie Collies; any dog in the category formed years ago for judging convenience by dog showers who had never worked a stockdog and had no need for one: the “Herding Group”. "Herding" dogs are as worthy of love and care as the dog that can gather a thousand ewes on rough ground or bring twenty rank cattle into the chutes. These dogs can earn ribbons and titles and certificates in the competitions dog show organizations have provided for them. Their owners can have fun with their dogs and, doubtless, the dogs have fun too. Some have residues of the genetics they were originally bred for. Many of these breeds are biddable and make good pets. But you won’t sell one of these dogs to someone who makes a living from livestock and really does need a dog. Donald McCaig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthOfSouth Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Speaking of cats and parrots, that reminds me of a funny experience. My mother runs about 150 cows and their calves on 1000 acres of hill country (finally, in her 80s, she's given up delivering calves!) When I was minding her farm some years ago, I realized that a steer had got into the narrow, wedge-shaped road paddock. She has border collies (they sleep on her bed when they're not working), but nobody else is allowed to work them, so I just grabbed a stick and headed down to get the steer. My nosy Siamese cat came along for the walk. We were parading up the paddock (the reluctant steer, me - waving the stick, and the cat - all long legs and loud voice) when I realized that a car had stopped and the occupants were staring, goggle-eyed, at my "working cat". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Dear Practitionistas, The reason why many herding breeds are not used for herding now has little to do with shows. It has to do with farmers. Farmers, ranchers, shepherds that bred these other breeds of dogs gave up on them and picked up another breed (e.g. BC). When a breed is useful it is bred for work by farmers, regardless of what the show rings do, because for a farmer the show ring might as well be on the moon. As e.g the valiant little Pyrenean. The French turned away from their indigenous breed to adopt a more useful dog for their purposes - the working border collie. If the little pyrshep of the purely working lineage was anywhere near as useful as the border collie, the farmers would keep breeding them not BCs. Belle the sheltie works on a farm with about 200 geese, Blue the Sheltie works on a farm with about 70 sheep. They are not nearly as good as a well-bred border collie, they are not as good as their working ancestors, but to imply that there is fine line between them an a strategically placed lab is a gross injustice to their, yes, stock working ability. Maja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 P.S. Gee, I am writing these posts, and I don't even like herding styles of these breeds, pyr-shep included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 P.S. Gee, I am writing these posts, and I don't even like herding styles of these breeds, pyr-shep included. Well we are not on this border collie forum for nothing Funny thing is as my working border collie (Gláma) is not ready for the big work (we are practizing like crazy, and she shows great promise in my very humble opinion), the dog I use mostly in this "round up" time of the year is my good old icelandic sheepdog/probably bordercollie/something else mutt, who is now ten years old and was never meant to be a working dog (when our paths first crossed our sheepfarming opertion was still years away). He barks and drives, has no directional commands, but is obedient on "down" "stay" and "here". He even has a bit of sheep sense. Nothing special but he saved me a lot of work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Maybe you could show some pictures of your helper then? this is a right topic for it . If I may ask, so what happened to Tata? Maja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 <snip> One can love Shetland Sheepdogs, Belgian Turverans, Australian Cattledogs, Lassie Collies; any dog in the category formed years ago for judging convenience by dog showers who had never worked a stockdog and had no need for one: the “Herding Group”. "Herding" dogs are as worthy of love and care as the dog that can gather a thousand ewes on rough ground or bring twenty rank cattle into the chutes. These dogs can earn ribbons and titles and certificates in the competitions dog show organizations have provided for them. Their owners can have fun with their dogs and, doubtless, the dogs have fun too. Some have residues of the genetics they were originally bred for. Many of these breeds are biddable and make good pets. But you won’t sell one of these dogs to someone who makes a living from livestock and really does need a dog. Donald McCaig *nods* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Maybe you could show some pictures of your helper then? this is a right topic for it . If I may ask, so what happened to Tata? Maja I´ll dig some up, he always considered himself very photogenic (worms his way into as many pics as possible), post some here here this evening. As for Táta (thanks for asking btw)her story probably merits its own topic, short version is I am in the process of finding (hopefully allready found) a non working home. I didn´t know/realize the grave importance of actually having seen the parents of a prospective pup work, took the (farm) breeder on his word. I am kicking myself for having been so, well stupid at the time, I thought I knew better (I should have known better) and clearly didn´t. Táta is as sweet as can be, obedient etc, but she just doesn´t cut it as far as working stock is concerned. This got painfully clear as I kinda rescued the year old untrained Gláma, all our problems regarding "difficult sheep",such as clinging to the fence, sheep that refused to move for the dog I experienced while wrestling with Táta´s training disappeared just like that. Maybe that keeping training Táta on (very) dogged sheep might turn her in a more or less useable "push button" dog, but that is just not good enough. She is two now, has been trained for a year, and is still useless for work in the field. Also an experienced trainer I went to a couple of times to get his opinion was pretty negative about the lack of talent she showed. I heard a couple of weeks ago that an acquaintance of mine who is into rescue dogs might be interested in an obedient intelligent dog, and he´ll talk to his wife to see if they are ready for another dog. If so they will take her on probation, if they like her than that´s it... Hm, this "short version" got a bit more long winded than planned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Thank you for writing about Táta. It's a pity it turned out that way, but a new home would be the best for her in this situation. Well, we can't know everything at all times. I bought my first BC almost all wrong, and then I got really lucky because there was a lot of good sheepdog in her, but even then, due to a lack of in instruction I so persistently ruined her in my ignorance that she is weird now . She is a good dog on the farm, but she can't trial. Drives me nuts that her daughter Bonnie is doing so much better, when I think her mother is a better sheepdog. But I couldn't have known then what I know now. I am looking forward to pictures of the Icelandic sheepdog . Maja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I always found it pretty ironic that at "breed specialty" herding competitions ... there is usually a Border Collie in setout, no matter what breed is being showcased at a specialty. You'd think they would take the opportunity to show how a fully trained dog of their own breed works in a setting like that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm8lVrBaRFI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lmHekT-3wg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Dear Practitionistas, The reason why many herding breeds are not used for herding now has little to do with shows. It has to do with farmers. Farmers, ranchers, shepherds that bred these other breeds of dogs gave up on them and picked up another breed (e.g. BC). When a breed is useful it is bred for work by farmers, regardless of what the show rings do, because for a farmer the show ring might as well be on the moon. I think you and Donald have just a slightly different way of saying essentially the same thing. He says many herding breeds lost their usefulness thanks to their popularity in the show ring. You say it has nothing to do with the show ring, but the fact that farmers will generally choose (and breed) the most useful dog. But if breeds were once useful and now are not as useful and farmers who once used a particular breed but now choose another, more useful breed, why do you suppose their original breed of choice became less useful? I suspect, as Donald states, that the decline began with the dog fancy and breeding for conformation rather than usefulness. After all, if a farmer's dog of choice was a Shetland sheepdog and, as you claim, he would have continued to breed his useful Shelties to produce more useful Shelties, then why would he have had to change to a different breed at all? The idea that perhaps it was because in general Shelties were becoming less useful *for some reason* to the point that he couldn't find good working stock to continue breeding from and so decided to go to a breed that was still being bred, largely, for usefulness makes sense to me. But there is certainly an explanation for that trend (of the various breeds losing usefulness), and given our vantage point of being able to look back at the histories of various breeds, it certainly seems plausible that breeding for conformation to the exclusion of other traits, like working ability, would be reason enough for traditional herding breeds to have largely lost their working ability and thus their adherents who used to use them for work, no? What other explanation could there be? J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 While I am quite sure that "moon-based" conformation activity in a useful breed of dog is capable of genetic/performance mayhem, I can suggest an additional possibility. The internet. The world has gotten smaller and more accessible with the advent of the internet. If I'm a sheep farmer in Italy and use an indigenous breed - which may be becoming a bit less useful for the reason Julie stated, and I saw these amazing dogs called Border Collies that could not only do what my traditional dogs have done, and possibly do it even better, I might say, "Hey! I wanna get me one of those nifty black & white dogs! They are amazing!" Pretty much everything I know about the Border Collie and sheepdogging (yeah, OK, I don't know that much, but still...) I learned from the internet. (and Donald's & Anna's books) There is a lot of information out there in cyberspace. If I needed to move a lot of sheep around and found myself dogless or with an aging sheepdog of a diminishing race, I would probably be looking at the Border Collie, which is distributed all over the globe and has proved itself superior in a great many types of terrain, livestock species and farm/ranch sizes. Border Collies are high-profile, and the only bad press I've heard about them is from pet-owners who give their dogs nothing to do do and then complain when they find their own ways of amusing themselves. I've never heard anyone say they weren't top-notch as working dogs. So why be surprised if folk switch to Border Collies, which at the present time still have a large reservoir of working talent distributed all over the globe? Some folks are probably going to Border Collies even if the dogs they have used in the past are still available. If you build a better mouse-trap, (and advertise it all over the world) people will buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Personally I think breeding for pets and companions has done more damage then breeding for the breed ring. We just sold a border collie pup to someone whose family has always used dogs that were given to them from other area farmers, ACD's, English Shepherd's and Australian Shepherds are some of the breeds they have used along with some crossbreds. They can still get pups that way but the problem is the farmers are no longer using the dogs, they no longer have livestock and so the dogs are just being bred as pets. Since they don't test their dogs on livestock they don't realize that what they are producing now is not the same as what they were using a decade or two ago, maybe even three. As far as the person breeding is concerned they are breeding the same breed of dog that they always have bred and more then likely people that have taken their pups are happy with them, since many of them have no idea what the dog is really suppose to do. Do they work? Probably to one degree or another, but more then likely not even close to what good representatives of the breed worked like back in the days when the breed was developed and popular based on working ability, but then again in many cases the work has changed also or may have been specific to the area where the breed was developed. I suspect that what has happened to the other working breeds is happening to the border collie, there are more pet/sport/companion breeders then there are working breeders. The dog is changing as the work changes, some of the work is dumbed down stock work other is just to be a pet and companion. What are the chances of picking one random border collie from each state in the US and having the majority of them work livestock in a fashion that is acceptable to someone that has a understanding of how the dog should really function, I suspect few. How many will have bits and pieces, most. Pet/companion breeders tend to select their dogs so that they look like the show ring dogs which leads people placing the blame on the loss of the working traits to conformation breeders. People are going to breed based on what they know, understand and can see, a person that loves border collies based on their temperment, looks and intelligents is going to breed and select for those traits. Breeder's can't select for working ability if they have no need for working ability nor any working knowledge of livestock. In so many cases people breed and only end up preserving a breeds appearance as they see it in their mind vs. it's working ability. We have the same problem in the ABCA border collies as the AKC border collies have, just because it is a registered border collie does not mean that it works like a border collie should work. The problem is compounded by the number of people buying and breeding that have little to no understanding of how the border collie should work nor do they really care since they have no genuine need since they are not seeking the dog to use for the purpose in which the breed was developed. As the purpose for which the mating was done changes so does the dog. Go out and find a ACD that looks like the original working ACD's and that work in a fashion of the original ACD's, but then there is a debate as to what the original ACD's looked like and worked like. Many believe that what is being represented on the bench is the original version of the dog, and the style in which they work is to strictly heel. But if a person puts alot of thought into the work that the dogs were originally expected to do it's pretty easy to believe that heeling is only one trait that made them useful, but it was the trait the identified them as different so now that's what we see, as someone else described the the modern version to me that once had ranch working ACD's, they referred to the modern version as "four legged torpedos" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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