How often do you train with a trainer?

[KrisK]

Here's the question that I'm trying to answer - If you don't have access to sheep, ducks or willing children in between lessons, what is the best way to proceed with training?

 

I was (still am) thrilled that there is a trainer within 2 hours but it was late in the year when we did get to his place and now with winter setting in, it's not totally feasible to travel frequently. I also haven't talked to him about winter training and his availability. However, does it make more sense to put training aside now, and start again in the spring/summer? I really hope to have better access to sheep next year, which should make training easier or at the very least, get started sooner with more frequent lessons.

Any insight from those who have been through this would be much appreciated!

Thanks

[Sue R]

There are dogs that Jack Knox only sees to train in clinics twice a year, and they progress (some of these dogs don't even work stock in between clinics). He says they don't forget what they learn - of course, with him teaching, they learn right.

 

Folks who do their training at clinics are often limited to working with a trainer to a few times a year. I think working with a trainer is more crucial if you are a novice because you can make and perpetuate mistakes (trust me, I'm guilty of this, big-time!) between sessions with a trainer who knows what they are doing, and could help you avoid these mistakes.

 

That said, because it's almost three hours (found a short-cut so it's just about 2 1/2 hours) each way for my friend and myself, we only get to go about once a month, year round. We'd love to go more often but it winds up being a whole day's excursion and costs more than we can afford to go more often.

 

We make progress but it's slower than if we could go and learn more often. It's worth it!

 

Best wishes!

[Keegan's Mom]

We (Keegan, Tess, and I) go to a trainer (usually) about once a month because of expense. I ideally would like to go every week or at the least every two weeks. I am living on one income between two people and 5 animals so once my hubby starts working, I plan to take advantage of trainer more frequently.

 

It will be nice living where I am now because I can practice what my trainer teaches me at Julie's and Becca's in between sessions now...I didn't have that before.

 

Then I do a clinic about once a year.

[kelpiegirl]

hi there

I am lucky enough to be able to train at least once a week, and a couple weekends, twice. It was awesome. My dog progressed from one day to the next. Of course we are having unseasonably good weather, which is why I am training so much now- because when it gets icy, we are kaput.

There isn't much you can do for training when not on stock- a good down is a great thing to have. OTher than that, there isn't really a substitute for just plain working the sheep. Some dogs don't need lots of training, some do. Try and eke out lessons when the weather is good is what I would suggest

Julie

[Carson Crazies]

Kris - sometimes I manage to get to sheep once or twice every week - and then sometimes its only once in a month. I take lessons, and try to do one or two clinics in a year, but I am also blessed with great friends who are generous with their sheep time (you know who you are, and I am so grateful). I have no doubt that progress would be faster if we had our own flock, but TBH we DO progress. Even when we, on rare occasion, have a month where we don't get on sheep at all - it's still worth doing it when we can.

[Pipedream Farm]

I would suggest at least making sure your dog is fit physically in between lessons. Mark has given lessons in the past where the dogs that came were just so hyped and cranked up about doing something that the first part of the lesson was simply wearing the dog down physically so that it could think. Sometimes too, dogs come in that don't have enough stamina because they are not exercised regularly at home. I actually spend more time keeping my dogs (open level) physically fit than I do training them on sheep.

Renee

[kelpiegirl]

hey mark

I have been taught that too- about keeping the dogs fit when working sheep. I think one of the reasons we don't start pups young is because of their stamina?

I find that my p.i.t. is pretty fit, and the breaks are more needed for brain rest so far.

Julie

[Pipedream Farm]

Julie,

 

That was Renee (sorry for the confusion with the shared ID). Working livestock is both physical and mental work for the dogs and as you have seen they often tire mentally before physically.

 

As far as the original question, these dogs learn through experience. Some individuals need more repetitive experience to ?get it? than others; but learning will not progress without experience. What can progress without experience is their ability to handle the mental stresses associated with learning via mental maturity. Based upon this the best way to proceed is keeping them physically fit, working them mentally, and working on team building (i.e. listening and working with you). But the only way to learn to work livestock is to work livestock.

 

Mark

[Deb Mickey]

Yep, the more time on the sheep, the better for both the dog and you. Half of this is training the dog the other half is the handler learning about sheep and the stuble interplay between the dog & sheep. I'm still trying to get a handle on that!

[Alicia]

I love allt he info, it's nice to know that, although it would take longer, working less isnt the end of the job for them. I worry about that sometimes as funds and possibly distance may keep Dally from being able to get regular work, we'll see.

 

Here's my question.

I'm planning on starting Dally on stock as soon as I am back from Christmas and find a trainer. She's 7months old, today actually lol. For a pup this age how often would you work her? Would you even start her yet or wait until she's older?

[juliepoudrier]

Alicia,

Age isn't as important as physical and mental maturity. The former because she needs to be able to keep up with (and get around) running stock (unless you're in a small space anyway), and the latter because she has to mentally be ready to take the pressure of training. Every dog is different. I was actually training Twist at 6 months old and she ran in her first trial before she was a year old, but I had her two 5-month-old pups (aka Crocodile and Alligator) on sheep yesterday and any thought I might have had of starting them this early went right out the window. They are nowhere near ready mentally (and really not physically either, though I can use a trained dog to keep the sheep from outrunning the pups). So readiness really depends on the individual dog and must be evaluated on stock of some sort.

 

At 7+ months, there's no harm in trying her out--just be prepared to decide to wait if after a few sessions she still doesn't appear ready mentally.

 

As for how often to work, I think often for short sessions is way better than less often for longer sessions. As was mentioned in the "tiring out" thread in the general section, mental work wears them out, and much of stockwork is mental. I'd rather take a pup out several times a day for 5 minutes at a time than take it out once and work for 15 minutes. Anyway, at first I wouldn't be working the pup at all without my trainer watching to make sure I wasn't making mistakes. It is very easy to inadvertently train bad habits, which is why it's better for a novice to have a mentor watching over training, especially with a pup. So I would not only go for short sessions, but also would not work the pup at all without my mentor there to make sure I wasn't making training errors. It might mean for a slower start if you don't have ready access to a trainer, but I'd take slow over making mistakes/training bad habits every time....

 

JMO.

 

(FWIW, when I started out I was using Willow, and adult rescue. I had one lesson a week, but then I was free to come work my dog at the trainers' place five of the remaining six days of the week. Though I lived more than an hour away, I generally was there working my dog(s) 3-5 times a week in addition to lesson day. Yeah, I tend to really throw myself into things like this, but as a result I was able to progress more rapidly. Even if you can't get to work your dog that often, like others said, it doesn't mean you won't progress--progress will just take a little longer.)

J.

[Alicia]

Thanks Julie That's what I was thinking. I am definately going to get a trainer. So we'll just see how she does, maybe she'll need longer maybe not We'll see

Thanks

[kelpiegirl]

Hi Julie

Good points. I train with someone (a good trainer), and I am the person working her. It is very very nice to work her ) We work a bit, take a short break off the sheep, and then go back. It works well in that the brain can disengage for a bit, and takes away the monotony. I had always heard that 9 months was the magical time at which to start pups- and I agree for the most part. My pup is 8 months, and is ready and able to work- with the caveat that we don't over do it- this I took from my experience in agility training- basically any training, you really don't want to go on and on. Oh, and I also heard that you can't really progress well unless you go more than once a week- proving not to be true for us. I think it all depends on the dog. Alicia, sounds like you will be starting your pup at about the same time I started mine )

Julie

[Sue R]

Bute's been "on sheep" for just a few minutes at a time about once a month since he was four or five months old. Each month, we see quite a change. Of course, this is with our trainer or a clinician and not by myself. He is real keen to start working with our cattle, and I am looking forward to progressing with him as he grows.

[kelpiegirl]

What I want to know, is if there is some sort of twelve step program for this addiction? I find that I spend all my time thinking about our next lesson, things not related to herding have taken an extreme back seat, and I have started to avoid family and friends (well, not *really*, but I can see it happening). If there is an opportunity, I will be there. What is really good is that I don't have my own sheep, as I would more than likely screw up my own dog, and I would just have to go work sheep over other less important things..... (which is everything btw).

Julie

[KrisK]

Thanks for all the replies. While I don't know if we can do any winter training with sheep, I can make sure that my dogs get enough physical exercise to get them in better shape. Believe it or not, the dogs do get more exercise in the winter since they both love the colder temperatures and we have better access to our bushland on snowshoes.

I'll also try to concentrate on more 'mental' exercise for them as well.

[bcnewe2]

What I want to know, is if there is some sort of twelve step program for this addiction?

The only thing I found that helped was a farm and our own sheep.

Then it gets worse from there. More sheep, maybe a few chickens, now we need more land....so on and so on!

That's why I'm in AR and am still sane! I have more room for sheep!

 

I say nothing beats working sheep often, but if you can't do it often, as much as you can will do!

It's taken us years to get where we are and I have sheep access everyday. What I realized here on the new place is, real work has taken us way farther than lessons or practice has ever done. It might be our lack of adquate fencing that has really made my dog become my partner.

Then there's Jack or Kathy K. and other wonderful mentors that let you know if you?re on the right track.

If you can volunteer to help out at your trainers place along with lessons I think you come along faster. That doesn't always mean working your dog, it might mean cleaning the barn or helping worm or lamb. Whatever you can do will help teach you the "sheep" part of the equation.

Cheers and Happy Holidays

Kristen

[Carson and Donna]

For us, we are lucky enough to live far enough in the south that we can train most of the year so I live for the next day that I can get myself on to the training field.

 

We also find ourselves extremely lucky to have found a mentor and trainer that will allow us to get as much time on the training field as she can handle.

 

Donna and I both get to train at least two times a week and would do it more often if we could.

 

I guess I should reconsider taking out a second mortgage to train and consider the above mentioned 12 step program

 

Then again we could just move to MT. or AK. but I hear it snows there so we would have to think real hard about that.