herding question

[scullywags]

Took my BC to a herding clinic this saturday we just did work with him on what they called the double round pen and he was rather impressive atleast to the folks that were giving the clinic.

 

my question is will it be a mental issue for my BC if we take some lessons but never end pursuing herding on regular basis ?

Will he feel frustrated if not given the chance to work regularly ?

I am considering taking some lessons but at this point its about deciding if I want and can afford to get too far into it as we already are doing agility classes and competitions.

 

Thoughts from experienced others welcome

Thanks

[juliepoudrier]

My take on it is this: If you are doing lessons because you want to learn about stockwork and how to do it right, then there's no reason not to do so. If you're doing it just as a fun "outlet" for your dog, then I'd say don't bother.

 

I don't personally think he'll feel frustrated if stockwork doesn't become more than an intermittent thing for him. The real question would be whether you want to invest time and money and something that you really don't think you'd pursue because of all your other training commitments. If you want to get your feet wet and see if maybe it's something you'd like to do in lieu of another sport, then the only way to find out is to take lessons. You may find that what he showed you at the clinic is just the tip of an amazing iceberg (Warning: It's possible you'll get hooked and all other activities will fall by the wayside while you pursie stockwork with your dog), or over time you may come to realize that stockwork isn't a real calling for either of you. As long as you approach it with mindfulness toward the well-being of the livestock, I see nothing wrong with taking some lessons and then reassessing further down the line.

 

Where in NC are you located?

 

J.

[scullywags]

My take on it is this: If you are doing lessons because you want to learn about stockwork and how to do it right, then there's no reason not to do so. If you're doing it just as a fun "outlet" for your dog, then I'd say don't bother.

 

I don't personally think he'll feel frustrated if stockwork doesn't become more than an intermittent thing for him. The real question would be whether you want to invest time and money and something that you really don't think you'd pursue because of all your other training commitments. If you want to get your feet wet and see if maybe it's something you'd like to do in lieu of another sport, then the only way to find out is to take lessons. You may find that what he showed you at the clinic is just the tip of an amazing iceberg (Warning: It's possible you'll get hooked and all other activities will fall by the wayside while you pursie stockwork with your dog), or over time you may come to realize that stockwork isn't a real calling for either of you. As long as you approach it with mindfulness toward the well-being of the livestock, I see nothing wrong with taking some lessons and then reassessing further down the line.

 

Where in NC are you located?

 

J.

 

 

I am in Lexington

Thank you for the answer

I realize it may sound silly to ask after 1 clinic but as nice as he did I would like to play with it and see where it takes us. BUT if i found it finanially draining ect I do not want to kill a good thing if that makes sense.

i would go back today if I could at this point but you know the new can wear off something however seeing my dog reacted was just the coolest thing ever

 

my dog was given to me i do not have any bloodline history other his mother was killed by a cow that kicked her(the parents worked cattle at a cutting farm ) and so he was given to a friend to bottle feed well he ended up at my place i took him last year (age 1)to get intro to sheep and he was very impressive to the man that we went to however he and i never got together due to schedules so the ladies I saw saturday said pretty much the same he was naturally balancing the sheep head and tail low but gritty and showed more propensity that he could work cattle and was too nice for a green person to try and train! but i could still do so it would just be not so easy as with a softer type dog now i know nothing of herding so who knows but i do know that he had them excited like I get when i see a very nice quality horse.

[PSmitty]

Scullywags, some here will most likely get offended that you said "play with it and see where it takes us". I know what you mean by that, though, and I don't see a problem with taking a few lessons and see what happens. I think Julie gave sound advice and I agree. As long as you're both doing it to learn and the stock is treated well, why not? My dogs and I only get out to work sheep twice a month, sometimes only once, or sometimes three times, depends on our schedules. Both dogs and myself find it rewarding, regardless of the length of time between lessons. And I'm no expert, but I don't believe your dog would find it frustrating if he only gets to work occasionally. It sounds like he has other outlets, also.

 

I totally agree that seeing your dog's reaction to sheep for the first time is just about the coolest thing ever.

[scullywags]

Scullywags, some here will most likely get offended that you said "play with it and see where it takes us". I know what you mean by that, though, and I don't see a problem with taking a few lessons and see what happens. I think Julie gave sound advice and I agree. As long as you're both doing it to learn and the stock is treated well, why not? My dogs and I only get out to work sheep twice a month, sometimes only once, or sometimes three times, depends on our schedules. Both dogs and myself find it rewarding, regardless of the length of time between lessons. And I'm no expert, but I don't believe your dog would find it frustrating if he only gets to work occasionally. It sounds like he has other outlets, also.

 

I totally agree that seeing your dog's reaction to sheep for the first time is just about the coolest thing ever.

 

 

Oh I sure did not mean to make it sound like herding was "playing" pry the wrong choice of expression

I value the skill and talet thats why I was asking about it before I do harm to my dogs metal stability

and the owners of the facility certainly were not going to allow just any dog go into a flock and start running them nilly willy from what I observed they had a requirement method for the dogs to go from into to getting access and they of course used long lines ect so i do think the well being of the sheep were taken into consideration I myself wold not allow my dog to run anything I have since day 1 made it known to him that there is no free access to chase or stare anything be it horses,cats,cars or humans

 

So if we did some lessons then just able to hit is 1 time a month or so that would work out for me at this point

See the 1st time I went to a person they were like you need to leave this dog here let me train it you come use my broke dogs( i use horse terms )and then you need to be here for a lesson a week ect wellll that was too much at the time for me to consider #1 i am not leaving my dog anyplace # i cannot afford a college degree for the dog! anyway thats why i kind of dropped it till now . So if you can do it limited basis like that i am all in

[PSmitty]

I totally understand what you meant, and I was not at all offended. Unfortunately, I have seen others get chastised for saying something like that. Was kind of just giving a warning. Anyway, I hope you can give it a try. Be warned, like Julie said, you just might find yourself hooked!

[scullywags]

I totally understand what you meant, and I was not at all offended. Unfortunately, I have seen others get chastised for saying something like that. Was kind of just giving a warning. Anyway, I hope you can give it a try. Be warned, like Julie said, you just might find yourself hooked!

 

 

Thank you for letting me in on the info!

I will say I am VERY interested like i looked up terms and watched some you tube runs ect and then tried to hunt for a maybe a closer location to get some instruction SUPER nice folks but its almost 3 hrs 1 way with gas prices well I need to see what my options are a bit closer to the house

 

and so that said how do you know if you are going to the "right place" for training what do you look for?

 

 

So what is the proper term to say ;;;;;;; started in herding!;;;;;;;;;thats what we are doing

[juliepoudrier]

and so that said how do you know if you are going to the "right place" for training what do you look for?

I can answer this one! It will be harder for you because you don't yet know much about it yourself, but I would look for someone *you* are comfortable with, who trains dogs in a way that makes sense to you. You could find the greatest trainer in the world, but if you can't connect with them in a learning way and/or you don't like the way they handle dogs, then stay away.

 

For me personally, I would look for someone who has had success in the higher levels of the sport of herding, specifically USBCHA herding (open level). There are a lot of people who are just novices themselves who hang out their shingles and sell their services. I'd look for someone who has plenty of experience starting young dogs and successfully training them all the way up. If a person buys trained dogs and trials and wins a lot, that says nothing about *their* ability to train a young/green dog from the ground up. A trainer doesn't have to be a trialer, but if you choose a farmer as a trainer, pay attention to how s/he uses dogs on the farm and decide whether the work you see is the sort of work you want from your own dog. (Hint: Someone posted a video of Becca, the World Trial winner, in this forum. Check out the video to see what a well-trained stock dog should be capable of.)

 

Stay away from someone who uses gimmicks. Clickers and treats have no place in stockdog training, unless maybe you're working with a breed that has had all or most working ability bred out of it. A long line used initially so that the overenthusiastic beginner dog can be caught is not a gimmick.

 

Look for someone who is honest and who won't string you along telling you how great your dog is when 6 months later it's still on the outside of the round pen (BTW, I don't actually like doing that sort of thing--I think it just encourages a dog to work stock from outside a fence, and since my yard borders a lot of my pasture, I don't want my dogs thinking it's acceptable to work stock from the wrong side of the fence). I understand why people will use it the first time a dog sees stock as it certainly protects the stock, but the only way for a dog to really learn to work stock is to interact directly with the stock, without any barriers between them.

 

There is something to be said from learning the ropes from a trainer's old schoolmaster while the trainer gets the most basic basics on your dog. Someone who has never worked stock just doesn't even have the capability, understanding (of stock and stockdogs), or timing to truly help the inexperienced dog get it right. (Note, I am not saying you should leave your dog with a trainer, but that in the beginning the trainer should be doing the bulk of work with your dog while you watch and learn and also perhaps learn from working a trained dog if one is put at your disposal during lessons.)

 

How the stock are treated routinely is also very important. A trainer who treats the livestock as an end to a means (that is, the sheep are just "objects" that are necessary for the business of stockdog training) is not a trainer I'd go to. A good trainer will not only train you and your dog about working stock, but will teach you about stock and encourage you to respect stock as sentient beings deserving of our respect.

 

I know none of that is very specific, but it may give you a place to start.

 

If you want private recommendations, you can PM me. Unfortunately, there aren't scads of trainers right in your area, but there are some within not too great a driving distance.

 

J.

[Rave]

I dabbled in herding briefly with my BCs before I moved away from the sheep I had access to. Mine haven't seen a sheep in years and they are no worse for the wear. Dogs in general are highly adaptable and live in the moment, not lamenting about the past. So try it out and see if it's for you. If not, then your dog will be no worse off.