Border Collie Nationals

[Eileen Stein]

I'm curious. Do those who refuse to sale to only certain homes. Is it a standard question for any potential homes weither or not you compete or in any way associate with a kennel club? Or what have you done with your past dogs? What clubs have you competed in? What IS your dog FULL name? Etc... 0.o

 

Not getting into the rest of it.

 

Not sure exactly what you're asking. If I have pups for sale -- which is pretty seldom -- of course I'm going to be talking a lot to anyone who is interested in buying one whom I don't already know. I want to make sure they are a good home. I want to know all about them -- what they're looking for in a dog, their past history with dogs, their lifestyle, how they see the dog fitting into their lives, what they plan to do with it, etc. And I expect them to have lots of questions for me. It's not an interrogation, it's just a cordial, wide-ranging conversation, or series of conversations. During the course of it, I'll tell them that the pups cannot be registered with the AKC, and explain why. They come to see the pups, and often I will visit their home. If things end up that they want to buy a pup and I want to sell them a pup, by the time they are signing my contract they are not surprised by the registration restriction, because we've already discussed it, and if it were a deal-breaker from their point of view, they would have already gone elsewhere.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Oh, I have the folks sign contracts for their pups too....and put Limited Papers on them as well.

[SS Cressa]

I know people who compete in KC activities but don't consider it as a main focus of their life with their dogs. And they might not think to bring what venues they compete in. Also I remember being almost aghast some threads ago the length some breeders would go to verified a potential buyer had no dealing with KC.

 

And just thinking, the people who are against spay/neuter are probably being turn down from a lot of sport breeders since that is generally one of the requirements. And the pups are sold on a limited registration.

[Flamincomet]

Because of the way you phrased this, I wasn't sure if you know that the ABCA does issue non-breeding papers. It's not an idea, it's a reality. Some breeders don't choose to use them, but some do. You may know this, but in case you don't, and for the sake of others who might not know, I thought I would clarify.

 

Having no experience with registering a litter with the ABCA, no I did not know that there were non-breeding papers. Knowing that now, I have to ask, why the hell aren't people using these more if they ARE available? Seems like that would cut the problem down of ABCA BCs being bred into AKC lines substantially, while still being able to sell to people who compete in AKC events (by registering or ILP).

 

 

 

Well,no, I can't say you're especially important to me, although I'm happy to engage in discussion with you, and to defend you when I think you're being treated unfairly or give you credit when I think you deserve it. But it was very easy to locate and quote that recent post where you described your plans for Link, none of which included sheep. Now, in this post, you are saying that you've been planning to buy property and sheep for three years, starting well BEFORE a breeder sold you a working-bred dog and thereby supposedly changed the direction of your life. Who knows what the reality is. But yeah, it isn't that important.

 

No one knows what truly happened with Ghost besides myself and my husband. So anyone trying to say rude things against me or about me in regards to that situation can **** off too for all I care, they have no background to even be making those comments and are nothing more than bored internet lurkers who seem to take great pleasure in other people's pain. As for giving me credit for not allowing someone to abuse my dog... I would hope anyone in their right mind would do the same thing that I did. No one treats my dogs like that, I don't care if they're a big hat, or think they are, that is MY dog, and I will NOT allow that kind of treatment, period. So basically, while it sure was nice of you to make those comments, I don't see why linking them is relevant to this discussion (or why you would link an old thread that is still a painful subject for me just to prove a point in your mind). My point was that you claimed to be "recalling" what I said those 4 months ago, when you obviously looked it up and quoted me directly, at least be honest.

I also have another border collie, a rescue, Spirit, who is the one I have the most experience working. I took her to a Patrick Shannahan clinic well before I bought Link, and even before that is when I started to form these goals. The reason I didn't include plans for trialing Link at that time is because I was having great difficulty finding a trainer I could go to consistently (despite much effort). OT I think it is completely and utterly ridiculous that I have to defend and prove my goals and ambitions against you, but that seems to be the nature of these boards.

 

I don't see why they wouldn't. Why would you be in a club for social reasons if the people in it didn't accept you? Or does the AKC club you're in for social reasons not have any AKC border collie people in it?

 

There are *gasp* AKC club members who do not believe in conformation breeding besides myself, and also have different opinions on the AKC. I have met some wonderful people and had great discussions through these clubs. And yes there are some AKC border collie people in this club, I don't want to cause drama with them so I tend to keep my mouth shut. The AKC BC people do not accept my opinions on the breed, let's be clear about that. There are some people you can tell will never change their opinions, I keep my eyes and mind open for people that will.

 

 

 

You seem to be saying in this post that you have only competed in three AKC shows in your entire life? Am I reading that wrong? I certainly had gotten a different impression from your previous posts.

 

Yes, competed (with my own dogs and not including fun matches). Due to illness, bad timing and other factors I have had a hard time actually competing in events. However I have gone to many dog shows, volunteered at many different events (conformation, obedience, agility, earth dog, CGC, etc). I do not volunteer for the conformation portion of shows anymore, my focus is performance and socializing with my friends.

 

 

Well, let's review what happened. Somebody posted that several RedTop dogs had placed well in obedience at the BCSA nationals. The Good Shepherd asked whether it was considered okay to register dogs with the AKC and enter them in AKC events other than herding and conformation. I responded, giving my opinion that it is not. Since the focus was on RedTop dogs, and since RedTop does not register with the AKC or enter AKC events (as far as I know, and I think I do know), and since it was suggested that people were reluctant to answer this question because it would involve criticizing a Big Hat, I went on to respond to the implicit question of whether it's okay for a breeder to sell dogs to people who will register/enter them in AKC. I said that while it is not as bad as registering/entering, IMO it is detrimental to the best interests of the breed -- it's not okay. I did not call this breeder out or attack him. I like the man personally, and have the greatest respect for him as a breeder, trainer and handler. But what kind of a coward would I be if I was not willing to answer those questions?

 

As you say, we all have our opinions on how to preserve this wonderful breed. You expressed yours. I expressed mine.

 

You are certainly entitled to answer any questions you want, however and again, I feel you crossed a line, and I also disagree strongly with your opinion on this matter. I think Journey summed up the issue at hand very nicely

 

"I don't think anyone wants to answer this due to the implications....draw your own conclusions but understand they (ideals) change with the wind and or handler/breeder."

 

There was no reason to get as nasty and condescending about this topic as I feel happened. And personally I feel much more confident and place my faith more freely in the hand's of the breeders being attacked (and it is attacking when you start to bring abortion comparisons into it), having met and worked with some of them personally, while I have only had experiences with you and others with your same opinion online. Let's just say working with these people in real life has been an eye opener. Not all working BC people are what I thought when I first came to these boards, and that's definitely a good thing.

 

[juliepoudrier]

Just a point of clarification for anyone reading this thread who might actually care about the distinction, attacking an idea is not the same as attacking a person, even if that person was held up as an example of the idea.

 

J.

[PSmitty]

I have students who do agility and flyball. They have gotten dogs from me. They are on spay/neuter and they are fine with that. Epic, who does flyball is the 10th fastest flyball dogs and I think the 4th fastest this year(or something close to that)....he is a nice herding dog and they hope to do Novice soon. Logan and Courtney won Jr Agility Handler of the year. Neither did sign them up for AKC but if they did, I would be fine with that based on certain restrictions.

 

Why, as they do herding, they see the AKC as for what it really is, their sports are offered via AKC in some timeframes/etcs and they are not interested in the conformation. The loves their dogs and provide excellent homes for them. They have boarded and sent their dogs for training with me.

 

They will never be interested in Open level but at the lower level due to children, other dogs sports and so forth. But they dutifully come out and work their dogs. I do sell to non-herding home but I screen the hell out of them

 

One of them told me that some flyball folks wanted to get dogs from me and they told them. Don’t bother as she will NOT sell to you as you will not fix your dogs and you will not do any herding with your dogs. And you are not for the good of the dog.

 

I found it quite amusing that they screen the folks now….I did tell them if someone was a good as they were, I would.

 

Both have been my herding students for over five years.

 

I have converted agility AKC, agility, etc folks to USBCHA herding…one is an Open handler now, the other one just won PN Handler of the year. I, myself was a former AKC handler…..

 

If a person is open to being educated and learning about the true stockdog, I am open to them.

 

I think this is a refreshing attitude, Diane.

[Mark Billadeau]

I wonder... Did you choose a working bred pup because it was working bred, or did you stumble onto the litter? Did you know the difference at that time, between working bred, show bred or sports bred? Were there sports bred Border Collies 15 years ago?)

Here's our story.....

 

Right after we got married we wanted to get a dog (18 years ago). Renee found this breed which seemed to fit our active lifestyle but was smaller than lab. When we started looking for a pup we sought out working breeders because we both felt that working breeds should be bred for work (had we gone with a lab we would have looked for a field bred lab). We were turned down by the closest working breeder because he didn't (still doesn't) sell to pet homes (he is now a friend) but he did put us in touch with other breeders who sold to pet homes. We got our first border collie (Duncan) as a pet and then promptly had him neutered because we were not going to work him therefore we would never breed him.

 

We started with obedience training which he quickly got bored with.

We did agility (UKC) for several years.

Our first house put my commute past Nancy Starkey's farm and seeing her dogs work peeked my interest until eventually I had to try it.

Once I tried it I was totally hooked.

 

Mark

[Journey]

Autumn, using ABCA NB papers means nothing to ACK, they do not recognize them nor honor them.

 

You still haven't answered my question though "how does breeding extensively, and selling w/o restrictions, benefit the breed"?

 

Your alliance is coming through loud and clear (as well as some unsavory language) I just have to wonder if you truly know or understand the whole picture. Or is it a misplaced allegiance due to origin?

[PSmitty]

<snip> If the AKC evaporated tomorrow, it would have little or no effect on the worst of the sport dog breeding and the doodle and designer mix trends.

 

Yes, this. Several people here have said that they feel the sport collie breeders are more a threat to the working border collie than show bred dogs. Or are you all referring to sport collie breeders when you say "AKC breeders"? If AKC disappeared tomorrow, sport collies and USDAA would be the big thing. In fact, in my area, it pretty much already is.

 

 

Honestly, the anti-AKC rhetoric, and the attempt to minimize sport dog people to wannabes or shove them in with the barbie collies just trips my "yeah, right" trigger. When I read threads mocking another venue's nationals, or minimizing a health concern specific to a given sport, or saying a color pattern should be bred out because it's popular in another venue, it makes me think there is no hope. I love and respect real stockdogs. I find stockdog trials fascinating. One of the main reasons I mess around ineffectually teaching my dogs herding is to learn and grow my appreciation of the level of skill involved. But, I don't particularly want to own a stockdog. I never plan enter a USBCHA trial and this kind of childish "tee hee, they suck 'cuz they don't have real stockdogs" reminds me of junior high cliques.

 

Do youtube videos and education. That is what will teach people about stockdogs. Show them what you have, don't taunt them because they don't. Otherwise, you just alienate your potential support base as they go back to their show dog and sport dog friends and never even see a real outrun.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Not all, but lots of stuff there I agree with, too.

[Eileen Stein]

Autumn, I wasn't claiming to have recalled the exact words you used about Link in your post a few months ago; I recalled the post, and then I looked it up and quoted the words. And I included those links to the Ghost thread and the hitting thread because you seemed to be personalizing this, and feeling that I was attacking you, and I wanted to point up that I'm not your enemy and don't regard you as my enemy. I used those posts -- which, for all I know, you may never have seen before -- to illustrate that. Obviously, it backfired.

 

It's pretty clear that continuing this particular discussion would be equally unproductive. Let's end on a note of agreement: You and I both agree that breeders should use NB papers more, and both of us feel that saying so does not amount to "attacking" those breeders who don't use them.

[Eileen Stein]

Demon Puppy,

 

If you have read the READ THIS FIRST post, and I'm sure you have, you know that this is a forum with a particular philosophy about border collies. You are free to participate here if you don't share that philosophy. You are free to advocate for the AKC because it meets your personal wants and because there would still be puppy mills and doodles and sport breeders if it disappeared. You are free to express your resentment, as a sport dog person, at being "shoved in with the barbie collies." (No problem with looking down on them, I guess?)

 

But you can't seriously expect those of us who are concerned about the future of the traditional border collie, bred for work, to refrain from "anti-AKC rhetoric" because you don't like to hear it. I know that AKC people generally don't like it to be pointed out that working instinct and ability are diminishing in the AKC Border Collies, and that this diminution is inevitable and will continue because of the very nature of AKC. (That was the OP's point, as I understood it.) You may perceive comments about that as "childish 'tee hee, they suck 'cuz they don't have real stockdogs'," but to us it's a serious matter that we are well aware of, and want others to be aware of. It IS education, just as much as a beautiful video of working dogs is education. Not everyone is open to education about that -- I understand that you're not, and you want us to know that it turns you off and has reduced your "sympathy for the plight of saving the stockdog collie" -- but many people do find it educational, and find themselves realizing for the first time the emptiness of the AKC's claim that they are preserving the working heritage of the border collie and that their trials and shows determine which are the best border collies.

 

So, in short, some people will be turned off by what they read here, and some will have their minds changed. We know that -- we have seen plenty of "catch more flies with honey" posts and "you've opened my eyes" posts. But whatever the percentages of those in each category may be, we are entitled to use these Boards to express our views (and even our frustrations) about the AKC and the future of the border collie, and I trust we will. Posts from AKC adherents along the lines of "I think you're mean and silly, and I don't like what you're saying, so you should say this instead" are not likely to change that.

 

ETA: On rereading your post, I see that you refer to having read a thread here "saying a color pattern should be bred out because it's popular in another venue." That would be a very odd thought -- one I don't recall ever being expressed here -- so if you or anyone else can provide a link to that thread I'd be very interested in reading it.

[geonni banner]

For anyone who has doubts about the AKC's policies and involvement with puppy mills:

http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2008/02/akc-loves-puppy-mills-and-naive.html

[mum24dog]

That said, I came to this board with more sympathy for the plight of saving the stockdog collie than I have now. Honestly, the anti-AKC rhetoric, and the attempt to minimize sport dog people to wannabes or shove them in with the barbie collies just trips my "yeah, right" trigger.

 

I totally agree.

 

There are people on here I guess make money out of training hobby herders - and what is hobby herding if not another sport? You either need a dog to help with your business or you don't. If you don't then you're playing at it just as people play at agility, obedience etc. We all work with the talents our dogs have.

 

How come sport versus working breeding is so important now? I've been aware of it happening since I was a child 50 years ago and my mother was competing in Obedience and Working Trials here in the UK. Some of her friends bought Obedience bred dogs, others got them from farms. I don't see any difference now, except in scale and there are a lot more rescue dogs around as well. Not many sport people choose conformation bred dogs.

 

50 years of the practice of breeding for sport hasn't destroyed the working dog here and I can't see why it should in North America.

 

I'm not in favour of sport breeding but it will happen whether I approve or not. No amount of hot air generated on sites like this will alter real life. Noone who needs a working dog is going to buy one and if someone fancies having a dabble with stock work and gets a sport bred dog to do it in ignorance they won't make the same mistake twice.

 

And I really don't care what delusions the conformation people are labouring under. I don't have to listen and I don't have to have anything to do with them.

[geonni banner]

So, my experience with AKC is that they have good training clubs, that they have venues my dogs, including pound puppy specials, can compete in, and that they have some good ethical breeders. Isn't that what we want AKC to be?

 

I don't think AKC is a particularly good organization. I just think they are irrelevant. My only interaction with them is as a sanctioning body that provides a training club and venue for me to compete with my pound puppy specials in one of my sports. I have never bred a dog.

 

That said, I came to this board with more sympathy for the plight of saving the stockdog collie than I have now. Honestly, the anti-AKC rhetoric, and the attempt to minimize sport dog people to wannabes or shove them in with the barbie collies just trips my "yeah, right" trigger.

 

It would seem to me that even if the AKC never even noticed that the Border Collie existed there would be ample scope (and need) for anti-AKC rhetoric in a country where the average person - even the average dog-owning person has bought into the notion of the AKC as the source and guardian of all things good about the American dog.

 

The AKC mindset and organization has done more to harm the genetic and physical well-being of the pure bred dog that any other single entity. They have undermined the health and sanity of millions of dogs by endorsing the pursuance of increasingly extreme physical characteristics and narrowing gene-pools of the purebred dog, and by not only not moving to eradicate puppy mills, but actually sanctioning many of them.

 

And now they have their hooks in the Border Collie. Will you wait until the AKC's Border Collie product - for that is what it is - is so extreme and inbred that it can't reproduce without assistance or routinely falls to the ground writhing in a seizure to lose you apathy regarding the AKC's involvement with the breed? Will that be enough to offset their generous unbending to allow little pound-puppy events, and convince you to stop supporting them with your participation in their events?

[juliepoudrier]

Mum24dogs,

I'm not even sure what your point is?

 

J.

[Eileen Stein]

How come sport versus working breeding is so important now? I've been aware of it happening since I was a child 50 years ago and my mother was competing in Obedience and Working Trials here in the UK. Some of her friends bought Obedience bred dogs, others got them from farms. I don't see any difference now, except in scale and there are a lot more rescue dogs around as well. Not many sport people choose conformation bred dogs.

 

50 years of the practice of breeding for sport hasn't destroyed the working dog here and I can't see why it should in North America.

 

I've visited the UK quite a few times and have several friends and other contacts there. I'm familiar with a lot of border collie history over there, and based on all that I have learned some things and formed some impressions and conclusions. Still, I'm well aware that it's impossible for me to truly understand the situation of the border collie in that or any other foreign country in sufficient depth for my opinion about what is happening and will happen to the breed there to be worth much. That's why I don't try to tell UK folks what is or is not going to happen to their dogs and what they should or should not do about it, and that's why I pretty much discount anything overseas people tell me about what is or is not going to happen to our dogs and what we should or should not do about it.

[Pearse]

. I don't see any difference now, except in scale and there are a lot more rescue dogs around as well. Not many sport people choose conformation bred dogs.

 

The difference is the scale.

 

If the numbers of workings dogs (ie dogs working on farms and ranches) >> sport-bred dogs, then the sport bred dogs are going to have minimal impact on the breed. That's the way it has been.

 

If the numbers of sport and/or conformation bred dogs >> working bred dogs, then the sport/conformation dogs are going to have a significant impact on the breed. This is where we are heading.

 

We are nearing the latter case. It's called a tipping point It's why we are concerned. Just because something hasn't happened in the past 50 years, doesn't mean it isn't going to happen in the next 50 years.

 

Pearse

[Sue R]

I believe that there is one major difference between the situation in the UK and in the US - with a long tradition of working sheepdogs, I don't believe there is either the blurring of the breeding or the lack of knowledge of the difference in working-bred versus otherwise-bred in the UK. In other words, there is much more recognition of what a working sheepdog is in the UK, versus a Border Collie that has been bred to be a show dog, an obedience or performance dog, or a pet. The same is not the case among the vast majority of people in the US, who have no idea of the difference (and the AKC has no interest in educating them about the difference - their dogs are "versatile" and the show-ring winners are "the best of the best").

 

In the UK, there are working sheepdog breeders who have dual-registered some of their dogs with the KC, simply because KC-registration is required for dogs/bitches/semen to be used in certain other European countries, where dogs must be registered FCI in order to compete in working sheepdog trials (which are administered by FCI).

[geonni banner]

I believe that there is one major difference between the situation in the UK and in the US - with a long tradition of working sheepdogs, I don't believe there is either the blurring of the breeding or the lack of knowledge of the difference in working-bred versus otherwise-bred in the UK. In other words, there is much more recognition of what a working sheepdog is in the UK, versus a Border Collie that has been bred to be a show dog, an obedience or performance dog, or a pet. The same is not the case among the vast majority of people in the US, who have no idea of the difference (and the AKC has no interest in educating them about the difference - their dogs are "versatile" and the show-ring winners are "the best of the best").

 

In the UK, there are working sheepdog breeders who have dual-registered some of their dogs with the KC, simply because KC-registration is required for dogs/bitches/semen to be used in certain other European countries, where dogs must be registered FCI in order to compete in working sheepdog trials (which are administered by FCI).

Isn't it also true that you can't swing a dead cat on the BBC without hitting a sheepdog trial - a real one, not like the pretend ones the AKC does? So more British people will have seen proper sheepdogs doing what they do?

[PSmitty]

 

If the numbers of sport and/or conformation bred dogs >> working bred dogs, then the sport/conformation dogs are going to have a significant impact on the breed. This is where we are heading.

 

 

 

I believe we are, too. So, if that's the case, why wouldn't working breeders sell their dogs to people who want to do sports with them (on a spay/neuter contract, of course)? If the goal is have more working bred dogs, then they're going to have to go somewhere, and the demand for sport dogs is high.

 

I'll never buy a dog from any breeder, so I'm really just trying to wrap my head around it.

[Journey]

I believe we are, too. So, if that's the case, why wouldn't working breeders sell their dogs to people who want to do sports with them (on a spay/neuter contract, of course)? If the goal is have more working bred dogs, then they're going to have to go somewhere, and the demand for sport dogs is high.

 

I'll never buy a dog from any breeder, so I'm really just trying to wrap my head around it.

 

Paula, you'll need a head shaped like a spaghetti noodle to succeed

 

I can't expain it coherently - it deals with morals, values and beliefs. It's about the essence of the breed, imo, and quite frankly here in the US people could give a rats a** about them, they're disposable, and it won't effect them so who cares...get what you want, where you want, when you want....that thought process, or lack of, is hard to educate. Many, if not most, sport buyers, want it all - all their way. I know plenty who scream and are outraged that a *farmer* wants a contract, albeit verbal, afterall *they do something* with their dog whereas the farm dog doesn't go many places, therefore it's inferior, yet they want a pup. Makes me think they think they're a better home, not necessarily. I'm beginning to think that selling to sport homes is worse and worse, they require lots of feedback and lots of energy. And for what? A dog that will not prove itself on the field or make a positive contribution to the whole.

 

Dang....got caught rambling

[juliepoudrier]

Well I've said it before in this thread and I'll say it again: in past threads like this there has been a significant contingent of folks who have said they and/or their friends would not buy on a S/N contract. Maybe that's changed, and if it has, then I see no problem with selling to a sport home. I do see a problem, however, with selling intact dogs that are then allowed to be bred on the basis of their sports performance (even if they stay within the ABCA fold, but there's always the AKC registration thing lurking too). But if *past* discussions are any indication, that just won't happen. Why would someone who wants to do sports buy a pup they can't breed from a working breeder when they could buy a pup they could breed from a sports breeder? That's the argument that's been made here in the past.

 

For the first time, someone said in this thread that many sport breeders are now selling with a S/N contract. Is this indeed true? If so, then it shouldn't really matter to the buyer whether the farmer also wants a S/N contract, right?

 

And if those statements are true, then there really isn't an issue because the sport person could go to a working breeder, agree to spay or neuter, and get themselves a pup, which in turn would presumably encourage working breeders to produce at least some more pups to meet that market (keeping in mind that they also need to prove those breedings with stock work, so at least some pups from each litter need to go to working

homes <--by that I mean homes in which the dog will be given a fair evaluation on stock, even if the owner never decides to trial).

 

J.

[PSmitty]

I do recall that being said in past threads, Julie. Otherwise, yeah, it sounds good to me, too.

 

Not overlooking the fact that I'm one of those amoral sport peoples...I must not know the right crowd. I don't know anyone who breeds their agility or flyball dogs (and therefore would have a problem with a S/N contract), but then again, I'm not super competitive, nor do I hang with anyone really like that. So, my small sample is possibly not accurate.

[geonni banner]

I do recall that being said in past threads, Julie. Otherwise, yeah, it sounds good to me, too.

 

Not overlooking the fact that I'm one of those amoral sport peoples...I must not know the right crowd. I don't know anyone who breeds their agility or flyball dogs (and therefore would have a problem with a S/N contract), but then again, I'm not super competitive, nor do I hang with anyone really like that. So, my small sample is possibly not accurate.

I think you know exactly the right crowd, with exactly the right attitude. It gives me the cold shivers to think about all those dogs belonging to hard-core competition types who get dogs that are "like kamikaze freight trains on crack." And live live with "a bottled tornado ready to explode at any minute from lack of exercise."

Agility is fine. I know dogs that love it. But they don't compete much, if at all, and they don't go all bug-eyed and yap their heads off the whole time. But then they have names like Sierra and Sophie; not Humvee and Cobra and Chaos.

My dog gets really jazzed when the Frisbee comes out, but she sprawls in the sun and naps with the cat when it doesn't.

[Journey]

I think you know exactly the right crowd, with exactly the right attitude. It gives me the cold shivers to think about all those dogs belonging to hard-core competition types who get dogs that are "like kamikaze freight trains on crack." And live live with "a bottled tornado ready to explode at any minute from lack of exercise."

 

Love it! Hahaha