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I can give 2 examples of the public's reaction to sheepdogs working. Two years ago I was lucky enough to get to go to Soldier Hollow, as my dog was being handled there by my teacher and her trainer Suzy Applegate. Being the only non exhibitor connected with the trial through my dog I spent a lot of time in the stands . I spoke with numerous folks and asked them questions and they asked me some as well. I found that many many of these folks are returning spectators drawn back because of the work these dogs can do. Year after year they were in awe and learned what was good work pretty quickly. These were "city" folk , many coming from Salt Lake City.

 

This Labor Day I went to Pleasanton CA for the 146th Scottish Games and entered their arena trial. The spectators filled the stands and standing room around the end of the arena. After the close of the trial I took a walk through the Games and had my dog Lyn with me. I was stopped time and time again by people asking about the Border Collies , the sheep, etc. I gave out the web address of the USBCHA so that these folks could watch the Finals on line. But mostly the overwhelming reaction was one of awe for these wonderful dogs. These people may not have been educated on work dogs, but many got a pretty good take on them by watching. I also found that upon explaining the difference between these working Border Collies and show ones they got it.

 

So education can take place with every day a chance for us to explain our dogs and what they do. Heck I do it daily at work with my Bet( Proudly the dam of Buzz and Dot , 2 of this yrs natl's finalists) as she is a wonderful example of what a Border Collie can be.

 

I got to see Buzz run in the finals. As buzz made an incredible turn back to pick up the second lift, I commented "I LOVE this dog"! The handler next to me piped up: "what's not to love?" Beautiful work from that one. Bet should be proud!

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If you just automatically decline a puppy buyer just because they want to compete in AKC sports events but have no intentions of breeding, what are you doing? Driving them to an irresponsible breeder who does not keep the original purpose in mind, but more importantly missing out on an opportunity to educate, which is what we need to be doing to keep this breed thriving.

 

I can't agree with this. If a doctor refuses to write a prescription for xanax to Fred who wants to get high off them, is he driving them into the arms of a street drug-dealer?

 

No! He's making a decision on ethical grounds, (and possibly in fear of getting in trouble for doing something unethical.) If Fred then goes and buys drugs from some guy on the street, it is his decision. There are always options. Don't take xanax, have a beer. Figure out a way to have fun without getting high.

 

I hear this from people all the time. Oh, I have to do agility with the AKC because there's no one else around. Wrong! You (the rhetorical you) may have no other local option for competing in agility trials. But there's nothing that says you have to have the AKC in on your activity with your dog. I'm sure most dogs don't give a hoot if they are competing in a trial or barreling around a course set up by you (and possibly a like-minded friend or two.)

 

If you (rhetorical you again.) really have that much of a need to do something competitive, take up tennis or volleyball, jousting or iron-man races. I don't think the argument that you have to embrace the AKC to do something rewarding with your dog holds any water. It isn't the dog that wants to win trials, it's you. The dog just wants to engage and have fun. And he doesn't need the AKC to do it.

 

I don't do sheepdog trials, but I'm quite sure the dog doesn't give a damn about competition or who's hosting the event when he starts his outrun. He barrels out there because he's a sheepdog, and he's working with his partner.

 

I was all set to get a PAL number for my rescue Border Collie when I discovered the Boards, and read "Mr. McCaig's "Dog Wars." I had thought of competing in obedience with her, and the AKC puts on most of the events around here. But when I learned what a monster the AKC is, I tore up those papers - never sent them in. I trained my dog and found stuff to do with her. She's happy; I'm happy. No AKC needed. And, no conflict with an ethical working breeder.

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I got to see Buzz run in the finals. As buzz made an incredible turn back to pick up the second lift, I commented "I LOVE this dog"! The handler next to me piped up: "what's not to love?" Beautiful work from that one. Bet should be proud!

 

 

I sent Suzy a congratulatory email and she said that she was so proud of how all her dogs worked , and especially how Buzz handled his sheep. She was excited to win Best Gather as well. He is a special dog to her, being by her adored Hap and out of sweet Bet. I will pass along your thoughts to her tomorrow at my lesson!

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This is what I keep hearing from my AKC friends: that border collies are just too crazy. I don't know any show ring bred dogs but I can see where they might just might be mellow couch potatoes with lots of hair. But I think some of those sports bred dogs are just plain wild.

 

.

 

 

I'll see if I can wake my working four sleeping Border Colies up and ask them if they are in that group of "crazy Border Collies". An ignorant stereotype if I have heard one.

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I sent Suzy a congratulatory email and she said that she was so proud of how all her dogs worked , and especially how Buzz handled his sheep. She was excited to win Best Gather as well. He is a special dog to her, being by her adored Hap and out of sweet Bet. I will pass along your thoughts to her tomorrow at my lesson!

 

 

Yay, she's home and checking emails! :) Suzy had me down for this Sunday, so I emailed her my congrats and a double-check what I'm still on the same time-slot. Have a great day tomorrow!

 

~ Gloria

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Yay, she's home and checking emails! :) Suzy had me down for this Sunday, so I emailed her my congrats and a double-check what I'm still on the same time-slot. Have a great day tomorrow!

 

~ Gloria

 

 

Thanks Gloria,

 

I desperately need a lesson with Lyn! Poor Gwen was supposed to stay to start her training tomorrow, but she came into her first heat ( sad face here) so she has to wait a few weeks. Suzy will work her though after my lesson.

 

Have fun Sunday.

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I can't agree with this. If a doctor refuses to write a prescription for xanax to Fred who wants to get high off them, is he driving them into the arms of a street drug-dealer?

 

I understand your passion, but this is a silly comparison. You may not like what the AKC does but its not illegal as prescribing drugs inappropriately does.

 

Refusing pups to people who plan to engage in AKC performance events will do nothing to help convince people to get dogs from working breeders.

 

I was all set to get a PAL number for my rescue Border Collie when I discovered the Boards, and read "Mr. McCaig's "Dog Wars." I had thought of competing in obedience with her, and the AKC puts on most of the events around here. But when I learned what a monster the AKC is, I tore up those papers - never sent them in. I trained my dog and found stuff to do with her. She's happy; I'm happy. No AKC needed. And, no conflict with an ethical working breeder.

 

And that's your choice, and its a good one. Its a choice I am struggling with myself...I'd like to do agility with my peers at the trials they attend. I'd like to do a tracking test with my dog and see if I can do it. But I also feel like I don;t want to give the AKC my money.

 

But your choice might not be someone else's. And if working bred pups are not available to people who have a chosen hobby, in many cases the basis of their social life, their friends, they are going to get their puppy from a sports breeder. A working bred dog on a non-breeding contract is a better choice.

 

(Edit I totally messed up my wording, sorry)

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I understand your passion, but this is a silly comparison. You may not like what the AKC does but its not illegal as prescribing drugs inappropriately does.

 

Perhaps it is a tad silly, it's the first one that came to mind after a very long, difficult day. Things that the AKC does may not be illegal, but that doesn't mean they're not unethical. I'm sure you would agree that supporting puppy mills in the way that the AKC does is, while not illegal, (at least not so far) is certainly unethical.

 

Refusing pups to people who plan to engage in AKC performance events will do nothing to help convince people to get dogs from working breeders.

 

Perhaps if you just slam the door in the prospective buyer's face, you will teach them nothing but that working breeders are an irascible lot. But if you invite the person inside, give them a cup of tea and explain why you have made the choice not to sell to an AKC-aligned home, you may give them a new perspective.

 

When I came to the Boards I already had a pup - a 6 mo. old rescue, and I was taken aback by the "passion" that came with some of the replies to my rather naive questions. (And now, here I am baring my teeth with the best of them.) ;)

But they were compelling answers which changed my outlook on a number of things - Border Collies in particular, and a more global sense, dogs in general. There is no reason a breeder could not plant seeds for a better understanding of why the prospective puppy buyer should reconsider their plan to get/stay involved in AKC connected venues/ activities.

 

ETA - And anyway, why should I as a working breeder compromise my ethics by selling a pup to a home I feel is ethically unsuitable? (Especially if I have given a well-reasoned explanation for my decision.)

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I have been through this delema, in my area there are a lot of AKC agility trials, a few NADAC ones and very few USDAA. My choice would be able to compete in USDAA as I enjoy the competive environment but most of the trials are a lot of driving. So wanting that competive environment I toyed with ILPing most of my competive friends and trainers all run AKC so I was having an internal debate about it, mostly leaning towards not. The decision though was made for me due to the spay/neuter requirement as I am not ready to fix my young man. But fundamentally I would be very uncomfortable if I had made that decision.

I do though at agility trials finding myself minding my P and Qs as I really do not want to start issues, but my biggest sales pitch is my backyard farm bred cast off, who is really mellow until it is time to run. When people comment on his attitude versus their tightly would sports collie, I just smile and point out that most farm dogs do not work all day and spend a lot of time ridding around in the truck, and in Yorkshire going to the pub at the end of the day. They just have to be ready and willing to work all day when needed.

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I understand your passion, but this is a silly comparison. You may not like what the AKC does but its not illegal as prescribing drugs inappropriately does.

 

Refusing pups to people who plan to engage in AKC performance events will do nothing to help convince people to get dogs from working breeders.

 

<snip>

 

But your choice might not be someone else's. And if working bred pups are not available to people who have a chosen hobby, in many cases the basis of their social life, their friends, they are going to get their puppy from a sports breeder. A working bred dog on a non-breeding contract is a better choice.

 

(Edit I totally messed up my wording, sorry)

 

Agreed.

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I understand your passion, but this is a silly comparison. You may not like what the AKC does but its not illegal as prescribing drugs inappropriately does.

 

But in geonni's example the doctor was not refusing for legal reasons, but for ethical reasons. The legality was only an incidental issue, at most. There are plenty of legal things that some people would refuse to facilitate on ethical grounds, aren't there? Some people think abortion is wrong, though it's not illegal. Some people think smoking is harmful, though it's not illegal. If I offered to pay one of these people for help in facilitating my getting an abortion, or getting cigarettes, and they did facilitate it, what would be the "education" I received from them? I would have learned that they talk as if they think these things are wrong, but that it's nothing but talk. When it comes right down to it, they're not really opposed. They don't think it's a big deal at all. It's no big deal.

 

I'm into educating, but I'm not into that kind of education.

 

Refusing pups to people who plan to engage in AKC performance events will do nothing to help convince people to get dogs from working breeders.

 

If you are going to engage in AKC performance events, despite everything, obviously I would just as soon you did NOT get your dogs from working breeders. And why would you want to? If you're going to support the AKC, then isn't it appropriate you get your dogs from what has been produced through the AKC? Reap what you sow. If you don't think it's a poisoned well, why aren't you drinking from it?

 

But your choice might not be someone else's. And if working bred pups are not available to people who have a chosen hobby, in many cases the basis of their social life, their friends, they are going to get their puppy from a sports breeder. A working bred dog on a non-breeding contract is a better choice.

 

Better for whom?

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If buying a working bred dog and paying entry fees to participate in AKC events is bad, isn't buying a conformation bred dog and paying AKC entry fees even worse?? Paying entry fees is one kind of support, but buying from an AKC breeder is a whole 'nuther kind...

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I'm guessing that Eileen's point is that if you are invested enough in the AKC to want to participate in (pay for participating in) their events, then you (the general you) might as well support their "product" too. In other words, it's a bit odd to take the stand that you wouldn't have what AKC produces and yet you'd be willing to support the organization that produces that product you don't want (the conformation-bred dog) by paying entry fees to their events.

 

J.

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I want to chime in on the favorable comments about Buzz. A lovely run, highlighted by that beautiful turnback, on a field where the turnback was particularly difficult and challenging. I know Suzy is proud of him, and she has every reason to be.

 

To segway from how impressed we were with Buzz to the working-breeder-selling-to-a-sport-home question...I was so impressed with Buzz's beautiful work at the Finals that, when I got home, I looked up Suzy's web site. Lo and behold; there were puppies by Buzz and Nan. I wanted one so badly I started calculating how long I could survive on Top Ramen. When common sense kicked in, I realized that my having one of these pups would be not unlike my buying an F1 Ferrari to commute to work....except the Ferrari doesn't have a thinking brain and the senses, needs and feelings to go with it.

I probably could keep one of Buzz and Nan's pups engaged, happy and sane, but it would still be like driving a 1500 HP race car in stop and go traffic. That puppy was bred to be one of the best herding dogs in the world. It should be allowed to be that dog.

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If you take the time to look at all the AKC Sports Breeders and the pedigrees of their dogs how many would turn up from strictly working lines? As a working line breeder you must have a good idea what your puppy/dog will be used for if you sell to a sports breeder.

 

On a sidenote why would an AKC sportsperson buying a puppy from a wellknown working breeder want to advertise where the dog came from by using the kennelname in PAL/ILP? Granted the dog has to be spayed/neutered to be PAL/ILP, but what if the dog get a full registration with AKC hence the Kennelname?

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I'm guessing that Eileen's point is that if you are invested enough in the AKC to want to participate in (pay for participating in) their events, then you (the general you) might as well support their "product" too. In other words, it's a bit odd to take the stand that you wouldn't have what AKC produces and yet you'd be willing to support the organization that produces that product you don't want (the conformation-bred dog) by paying entry fees to their events.

 

J.

 

Yeah, I know to some it's odd, to some it's not. What seems odd to me as well, is saying "Fine, if you want to do AKC stuff, just go buy a show bred dog". I still thought the bottom line was encouraging working breeders and people to buy from them.

 

More and more lately, I find myself not able to stuff my square peg in a round hole around here, though, so who knows? ;)

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Paula,

I guess the oddness is just the nature of the beast? I personally would not participate in AKC events and if someone wanted to buy one of my pups (theoretically) to participate in AKC activities, said pup would be sold on a NB or spay/neuter contract. I think in the past, though, these discussions have then turned to the reality that many sports enthusiasts don't want to be told they have to neuter their dogs. So a Catch-22. I personally disagree with giving money to the AKC for anything, but I understand how people can rationalize. For example, I abhor the way hogs are raised in cofinement in this country and if I really wanted to be ethical I'd never eat ham or bacon, and certainly not Smithfield ham or bacon. But sometimes I do eat it. So I can see how people who dislike an entity can still be involved in some ways with that entity. Ideally (and keeping the fact that some people *will* do AKC events, no matter what), if people simply must participate in AKC activities, I would like to see them buy dogs from working breeders, *neuter* those dogs so that they can't become part of the AKC gene pool, and then go back to the breeder for another pup when they want a new dog. But that's a Pollyanna world that doesn't exist, unfortunately.

 

J.

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If buying a working bred dog and paying entry fees to participate in AKC events is bad, isn't buying a conformation bred dog and paying AKC entry fees even worse?? Paying entry fees is one kind of support, but buying from an AKC breeder is a whole 'nuther kind...

 

Julie's right about what I was saying, but I'll try to answer your question directly. Yes, in a sense it is certainly worse to buy a conformation bred dog. But in terms of ultimate harm to the working border collie, I think we probably have more to fear from blurring the lines than we do from conformation dogs. It's easier to hold the line the more distinct the line is. It's easier to help people understand the difference between x and y the clearer the lines of demarcation are between x and y. If all the AKC dogs were conformation bred dogs, IMO it would be much easier to safeguard the working breed, despite the fact that the two breeds confusingly bear the same name. If I could, I would make the membrane between working-bred dogs and AKC dogs impermeable. I can't do that, but I will at least use my best efforts to reduce its permeability, because I think otherwise the osmosis created by the attractions and dominance of the AKC will ultimately lead to the bleeding out of our breed's essence. And no matter how often I hear, "Oh, I just want to educate those AKC people about how good a working-bred dog is" or "Oh, I just want to do what's best for my dog--he enjoys it so," I can't help thinking that when someone takes the wonderful product of our working breeders and makes it a part of the AKC, thereby enhancing the fortune, power and prestige of an organization which could not be more philosophically incompatible with the traditional border collie, it's a case of placing self-interest over the long-term interests of the border collie breed. How could I be okay with that?

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Paula,

I guess the oddness is just the nature of the beast? I personally would not participate in AKC events and if someone wanted to buy one of my pups (theoretically) to participate in AKC activities, said pup would be sold on a NB or spay/neuter contract. I think in the past, though, these discussions have then turned to the reality that many sports enthusiasts don't want to be told they have to neuter their dogs. So a Catch-22. I personally disagree with giving money to the AKC for anything, but I understand how people can rationalize. For example, I abhor the way hogs are raised in cofinement in this country and if I really wanted to be ethical I'd never eat ham or bacon, and certainly not Smithfield ham or bacon. But sometimes I do eat it. So I can see how people who dislike an entity can still be involved in some ways with that entity. Ideally (and keeping the fact that some people *will* do AKC events, no matter what), if people simply must participate in AKC activities, I would like to see them buy dogs from working breeders, *neuter* those dogs so that they can't become part of the AKC gene pool, and then go back to the breeder for another pup when they want a new dog. But that's a Pollyanna world that doesn't exist, unfortunately.

 

J.

 

Thanks, Julie. This is along the lines of my thinking.

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I can't help thinking that when someone takes the wonderful product of our working breeders and makes it a part of the AKC, thereby enhancing the fortune, power and prestige of an organization which could not be more philosophically incompatible with the traditional border collie, it's a case of placing self-interest over the long-term interests of the border collie breed. How could I be okay with that?

 

And that's your choice.

 

The thing is, not every person involved in various dog worlds sees the AKC as the evil entity you do. There's good people doing fun things and being involved with a social club that is affiliated with dog shows and dog sports events. They see the AKC in a different light, and they are not interested in the politics of the Border Collie world. They just want to do agility with their friends.

 

So its totally your right to explain how you feel about the AKC and not sell to someone who does AKC performance events, and a few people may be moved enough to change their mind about doing AKC events.

 

But most won't, because your passion is not theirs, and then they will get a dog from somewhere else.

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I think most people realize it's a choice. But that doesn't mean that they should take the "Oh, well, they're going to do it anyway, so I might as well join them" attitude (and by join them, I mean cater to them, sell dogs to them, whatever). You might not like or agree with Eileen's beliefs/choices, but you can say that at least she's consistent in them.

 

 

J.

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