Maralynn Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Trying to understand, it is Okay to register a dog with AKC and do Obedience, Rally or any other AKC venue as long as it is not Conf. or Herding? Would that not support AKC? I know opinions will vary, but IMO it's not okay. The AKC is a flawed organization at the very top. The bottom line is their bottom dollar and this often comes at the great expense of the dogs they claim to champion. IMO it's not just about herding, it's about an organization that is fundamentally bad for dogs. I think this is the angle to make clear to people. Lots of folks have no clue about herding but they understand puppy mills. Which the AKC strongly supports. Maybe it's time to expand the argument about why the AKC isn't good for dogs as a whole rather than just for Border Collies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Maybe re-education isn't the answer. Maybe it's showing them something beautiful and real and pure that they couldn't imagine existed until they're shown. Yes! For the past two years I've posted a link to the finals webcast over on another dog forum. Some serious dog folks there, but more towards Schutzhund and are rather unfamiliar with the with the sheepdog world. A bit of the AKC perhaps, but nothing at that level. It doens't generate lots of interest, but people watch and are amazed at the dogs. I explain the bast that I can - which isn't that great, but it's showing people who appreciate good dogs what is possible with a well bred, well trained Border Collie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Ms Banner writes, "I don't give the AKC one thin dime." Nor do I. The Dog Fancy and its oligarchies, the Kennel Club (UK) and AKC have, by their policies, caused suffering to tens of thousands of malformed dogs and as many owners who believed that their purebred puppy ("AKC Ch bloodlines)") would be healthier. more rationally bred and in some ineffable sense "better" than a dog from the shelter. While many decent dog loving people can be found in the Dog Fancy, their 19th century quasi-religious beliefs have hurt too many dogs. Donald McCaig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Trying to understand, it is Okay to register a dog with AKC and do Obedience, Rally or any other AKC venue as long as it is not Conf. or Herding? Would that not support AKC? I don't think anyone wants to answer this due to the implications....draw your own conclusions but understand they (ideals) change with the wind and or handler/breeder. I am very comfortable answering this. Would have done so sooner, but I was at the finals and didn't have good access to the Boards. In my opinion, it is not okay to register a border collie with the AKC, no matter what you do or don't do with the dog. That is true no matter who you are. Since your question seems to have been inspired by the fact that obedience people are buying RedTop dogs and then registering them with the AKC, perhaps the question you meant to ask was, "Is it okay to sell border collies to people you know will register them with the AKC?" I suppose this is a "lesser offense," but here again, my answer would be no, it is not okay. But all working border collie people are not in lockstep in their opinions on this matter. There are some who are willing to sell pups to people who will register dogs with the AKC. There are some who are uncomfortable placing restrictions on what a buyer can do with his/her pup. There are even some who themselves register with the AKC. It doesn't surprise me that there is disagreement among working breeders on these points. Human nature encompasses a wide variety of attitudes and behaviors. Most working breeders probably know little about the AKC, and have given little thought to the long-range implications of AKC registration for our dogs. It's entirely to be expected that some working breeders would take the AKC buyers' money, which tends to flow much more freely than other buyers' money. If we had thought that no working breeders would do this, we would have had much less reason for concern about AKC recognition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Shepherd Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Hi Eileen Wish I could have been at the Finals It would be interesting to hear from a Working Breeder who knowingly sells to the AKC people. I have had discussions with serious obedience people the last few days. It seems that some would not want a BC from a "Big Hat" because, in their opinion, it would be a "Herding Wash-out". The other half would only want "Pick of the Litter". My 2 cent worth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 It seems that some would not want a BC from a "Big Hat" because, in their opinion, it would be a "Herding Wash-out". The other half would only want "Pick of the Litter". I don't know which is worse, letting them continue to think that way but then you have to consider where they are going to get their border collies from, or try to change their thinking which leads to more working bred dogs entering into the AKC gene pool.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 If someone is getting a pup from a Big Hat then there's no way to know if it's a herding wash out. And even a young herding "wash out" might not be a true wash out, given the time and attention of a dedicated handler. But seriously, how can one say anything about a well-bred puppy, at least with respect to working ability? It's just not possible to assess a young pup like that. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 I have had discussions with serious obedience people the last few days. It seems that some would not want a BC from a "Big Hat" because, in their opinion, it would be a "Herding Wash-out". The other half would only want "Pick of the Litter". Unless they are talking about buying a 1-2 year old dog, their first excuse is just BS. How on earth could we tell if a pup will be a "herding wash-out"? Their other excuse is just BS too since even in their world only 1 person gets pick of the litter and that is typically an owner of the sire or dam. Both excuses are cop-outs to justify buying from obedience breeders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 If you want to debunk their thought process you also have to be willing to sell them dogs which will be registered AKC, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 I don't need to sell to them to debunk their thought processes; all I need to do is point out the inconsistencies. Now trying to convert a religious zelote takes an epiphany which I am unlikley to be able to find for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 If you want to debunk their thought process you also have to be willing to sell them dogs which will be registered AKC, no? I don't see why. Surely even an obedience person can be made to understand that a puppy is nothing more than *potential* and there's no telling the outcome of that potential until much further down the line. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 justification as to why not to buy working bred, easier then having to be turned down by working dog breeders, which is what a person would be setting them up for if they believed that working dog breeders should not sell to homes that compete/register AKC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Yes, it can be quite the dilemma. We want people to buy working bred pups over other breeding programs. We don't mind these pups participating in other venues as long as they are only bred for work, but they we don't want them to participate in AKC programs. So what do we tell buyers who live in locations where the AKC is the only "game in town" for their preferred performance event? You can buy my pup but you must also start a new local performance club to compete with AKC or change performance event to one with a non-AKC club. Oh by the way UKC is also bad since they have breed ring events. (playing devil's advocate) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 justification as to why not to buy working bred, easier then having to be turned down by working dog breeders, which is what a person would be setting them up for if they believed that working dog breeders should not sell to homes that compete/register AKC I don't follow your reasoning. Just because I think working dog breeders should not sell to buyers that register AKC doesn't mean that those buyers will be turned down by the working dog breeders they might approach. And whether or not they get a pup from a working breeder, there is no way the puppy they get or don't get could be a "herding washout," for the reasons Mark and Julie explained. Julie, I wish you could have been there too. It was a great finals -- beautiful setting, tough sheep, well organized, outstanding food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Running the conversation in my mind as I try to convince a AKC sport or obedience person with the above referenced opinion that the way to go is working bred rather then getting a dog from a breeder that supports AKC. Just get them thinking right and then they ask, "Well you breed working dogs, can we look at your pups?"...."sure...you can look, but I won't sell one to you unless you agree to not compete or support AKC" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Yes, it can be quite the dilemma. We want people to buy working bred pups over other breeding programs. We don't mind these pups participating in other venues as long as they are only bred for work, but they we don't want them to participate in AKC programs. So what do we tell buyers who live in locations where the AKC is the only "game in town" for their preferred performance event? You can buy my pup but you must also start a new local performance club to compete with AKC or change performance event to one with a non-AKC club. Oh by the way UKC is also bad since they have breed ring events. (playing devil's advocate) I really don't see the dilemma. I try to explain to people the real nature of a border collie, and why they should not register a border collie with the AKC. Either they understand what I'm trying to explain and agree with it, or they don't. If they don't want a border collie unless they can register it with the AKC, then I don't really want them to buy a working-bred dog. If AKC is so important to them that they want to be a part of it, why wouldn't they want a dog that's a product of AKC? I do think we do them a service, though, when we suggest starting a new club. (Not "to compete with AKC" -- compete for what? Just to be your club, to facilitate doing things with your dog in interaction or competition with others.) Some dog people just don't realize there can be life outside of the AKC until the idea is voiced to them. Of course, lots of people aren't interested in doing things with their dogs unless they're AKC things, but lots of people are, once they realize it's a possibility. After all, somebody (or rather, several somebodies) formed NADAC, and USDAA, and NEBCA, and every other dog club or organization that's non-AKC. You're about to put on a trial that has no connection with AKC, and people and dogs are going to happily compete at it. I think every person who recognizes that they don't have to support AKC in order to do enjoyable and meaningful things with their dog is a step forward. Enough steps forward and you have a march of progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Oh by the way UKC is also bad since they have breed ring events. That depends on the angle you're working from. I'm not nearly as worried about the breed ring aspect as I am the hypocrtical nature of the AKC and the clout they hold over the dog world. My #1 angle to the GP would be I don't support the AKC because they support and encourage puppy mills. People understand that one, and it's far easier to get across than some of the more complex reasoning. You're not going to be able to convince top level competitors, but then I doubt that they'd be going to working breeders in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 You're not going to be able to convince top level competitors, but then I doubt that they'd be going to working breeders in the first place. Yes and no. Those that know the value of a thinking dog will stick with the working bred ones, those that like the ones that are *easy* will go with show/sport/obed bred, they tend to be less thinkers or less creative in learning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Shepherd Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Mara check the obedience results from the AKC nationals! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 If the organization has a breed ring and a breed standard by which the dogs are judged then that org is promoting the breeding based upon form not function. How is this any different (in terms of breed health) than what the AKC has been doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Eileen I understand and believe what you are saying, however; I also know human nature. There is a strong desire to win year end awards and have high rankings in more than just a independent trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 Eileen I understand and believe what you are saying, however; I also know human nature. There is a strong desire to win year end awards and have high rankings in more than just a independent trial. Oh, I suppose there is. Certainly I see that it's important to many people. But I bet you could fill your trial if it weren't sanctioned by anyone. There are lots of people who love doing it for its own sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Crocker Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 But I bet you could fill your trial if it weren't sanctioned by anyone. There are lots of people who love doing it for its own sake. Boy you have that right. I love trialing for the chance to get out there on the field with my dog. No matter how it goes it's fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 Yes and no. Those that know the value of a thinking dog will stick with the working bred ones, those that like the ones that are *easy* will go with show/sport/obed bred, they tend to be less thinkers or less creative in learning. This is what I keep hearing from my AKC friends: that border collies are just too crazy. I don't know any show ring bred dogs but I can see where they might just might be mellow couch potatoes with lots of hair. But I think some of those sports bred dogs are just plain wild. My working bred dogs aren't wild or hyper. They need to get out every day but they aren't crazy at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flamincomet Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 I don't think there is anything wrong with working breeders who sell to AKC sports competitors (obedience, agility, etc). BTW what about people who ILP/PAL dogs but still compete? Isn't the most important thing for people to get out there and do what they love with their dogs (which is fulfilling to the dog), while also educating this huge population of dog sports competitors about the worth of breeding border collies true to their original purpose? I think Patrick does a great job of that, judging by all the return puppy buyers, when they could try breeding their own litters from his lines. I know Patrick and Dianne's lines have convinced me to never even THINK about getting a border collie from anything but working lines again. If you just automatically decline a puppy buyer just because they want to compete in AKC sports events but have no intentions of breeding, what are you doing? Driving them to an irresponsible breeder who does not keep the original purpose in mind, but more importantly missing out on an opportunity to educate, which is what we need to be doing to keep this breed thriving. And yes putting on independent events and creating other clubs to compete is a great idea, but we need a higher number of people who are interested, which starts with people questioning AKC breeding practices (AKA education) and will lead to them seeking out different options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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