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New BC behavior issues, suggestions please?


Cyn

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I know you said you are not fond of clicker training, so please do not take this as pushy. But my experience is that people who do not like clicker training usually do not understand it. This was true of me, until I learned enough about it to understand how and why it works, and the perfect beauty of it. If I may, I would like to recommend that you read "Reaching The Animal Mind" by Karen Pryor. It will explain to you how and why it works, how it empowers the animal and teaches the animal to think, and how it improves the relationship between you and the animal you are training. It is an easy and entertaining read, too. Just try a few little things, maybe, and see if you get results. You can start with the click of a ballpoint pen, followed by food treats, and work up from there.

 

The main thing that you need to work on, it seems to me, is the relationship between you and this scared dog. He needs to learn to trust you and to believe in you. from there, all training will come more easily. I would work for now on your relationship, and let more formal training wait a little while until he trusts you more. Another great book, specifically about the relationship between people and dogs, is "Bones Would Rain From The Sky" by Suzanne Clothier.

Good luck

 

I second this. I used to "hate" clicker training. It was only because I didn't know how. Once I learned, I loved it!! It works wonders for behaviors and is a great tool for shaping. I too recommend Karen Pryor's book. She is amazing, her book is amazing, it's a great read!

 

I also agree with not putting pressure on him. Don't add to his stress by using this method. That could be a disaster! If I put pressure on my fearful dog when she was afraid or not understanding a command, it would make her fears heightened. She would be an aggressive dog today if that was the way I worked with her. I would definitely keep it positive. Make the world an exciting place. This will take time, but be patient.

 

Check out Karen Pryor's blog. She posts great advice on all sorts of behavior problems.

http://www.clickertraining.com/blog

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/2462

 

Susan Garrett has amazing recall games. It's worked wonders for me.

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/

 

I have always been amused by this website. Fun with clicker training.

http://www.useyourclicker.com/

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I'm going to have to stick up for "barefoot" here...in the age old world of stockdog training I have seen hundreds of dogs, pup, adolescent(many of them very shy and under-confident)and adult trained using simple pressure and release methods..I think one of the biggest problems I see in dealing with dogs today is people OVER ANALYZING them and trying to project "human type" psychological issues onto these dogs....I work as a trainer at a facility and I can't TELL you the past few years how many people try to blame there dogs issues on fear, or the fact that there dog is "soft"....these issues are increased by the owners taking pity or not-knowingly encouraging the behavior...but the biggest connection novice people don't undertsand is that "soft" or under-confident dogs need leadership and clear-cut expecations even more well minded pups, and that due the intelligence of the border collie especially, given the opportunity can be extremely manipulative. I have seen dogs turn personalitys from night to day once they came into class, I was able to work with them and put there owners on the right track...did it take awhile...sometimes, they're used to getting there way and when the "party is over" there can be a bit of a tantrum..but with my experience the dogs ended up confident and happy. I have found in my years of experience trainin dogs and working with top trainers there are very few dogs that were TRULY fear based cases...people want to seem to jump to that conclusion right away because it seems to be the easiest explanation for there dogs behavior..it also allows them to feel sorry for the dog...and to not put to much "pressure" on the dog or cause them to be un-comfortable..or help give them the leadership there dog desperatly needs..

 

A solid recall is a MUST...it is a matter of safety for the dog...it's a non negotiable asset...ALL my pups learn this from day one using the good ol stockdog method...long line. Pressure and release. VERY simple. They learn is REEALLLYYY fast. Coming is not optional. High value food rewards help also ;) Set up proofing, make the dog understand they must come no matter what, period. The more you let your pup mess around and ignore you the more you are re-enforcing that behavior and teaching him it's ok to blow you off, that's not being a leader.

 

 

The recall I teach dogs for competitive obedeince is different and they know the difference and is composed almost entirely of high drive and highly rewarding games...but that's what it is.. a game...

 

A rock solid recall in normal settings, in my case it's my "that'll do" is a NON OPTIONAL deal...

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I can agree with the two points of vies.

 

Shysheperdess, one of the first things my trainer asked me when he met my very reactive

"new" adult dog was, "Can you be a strong, consistent leader?" Absolutely, my dog's skittishness in his new world was helped by my being able to give consistent, clear expectations and have them met. My being wishy-washy wouldn't have helped him at all. (I could write a book about the human students I've had whose parents were so afraid to lay down any boundaries that they created helpless or - worse - manipulative, bullying adolescents.)

 

However, I don't think that's different from clicker training and other similar methods. The whole point of the clicker is to give immediate, clear feedback that the dog can recognize about what he's supposed to do in a given situation. And knowing expectations and outcomes is what leads to calm confidence in a dog, fearful or not.

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I completely agree that there are times when pressure is needed and beneficial, and also that skittish, flighty dogs NEED leadership. However, pressure is not the only way to lead a dog.

 

You don't need pressure to train a dog to come. You can train a reliable come without a leash and without reeling it in. I've never taught "come" with a long lead. But they still picked it up fast, and my adult dogs will stop on a dime mid-chase, turn around and come back if they're called. No pressure needed.

 

Clicker training/positive training is not wishy washy.

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Putting pressure on a fearful or under-socialized dog has never worked for me, at least not in the way you're talking about. I might make them deal with the pressure that's already there by not letting them back off and rewarding them by going away when they're calm, but I personally have found that adding more can make the problem worse or turn it into a game chase, then you're really in trouble. That's what my llama analogy was trying to illustrate, changing a mindset through progression of stages. I'd leave off the recall until the dog is more comfortable being around me. That's just IMHO and experience, but hey, if it works for you.

I would never ask this dog for a recall in a place where a game of chase was a possibility. That said, I have used pressure with fearful and under socialized dogs to great success. Fearful dogs are in a constant state of feeling pressure and most people tend to try to acclimatize a fearful dog to that constant feeling instead of showing them how to move through that pressure to achieve a complete release from it.

 

I don't lower my expectations for a fearful or under socialized dog. I find that most people are happy if they achieve a dog that is a little less fearful and has a modicum of socializization. My goal with any dog is that it's comfortable and confident in any setting, not moderately socialized and less scared than it was at some point in the past; it's an approach that has been successful for me, and a number of dogs I've worked with.

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I can agree with the two points of vies.

 

Shysheperdess, one of the first things my trainer asked me when he met my very reactive

"new" adult dog was, "Can you be a strong, consistent leader?" Absolutely, my dog's skittishness in his new world was helped by my being able to give consistent, clear expectations and have them met. My being wishy-washy wouldn't have helped him at all. (I could write a book about the human students I've had whose parents were so afraid to lay down any boundaries that they created helpless or - worse - manipulative, bullying adolescents.)

 

However, I don't think that's different from clicker training and other similar methods. The whole point of the clicker is to give immediate, clear feedback that the dog can recognize about what he's supposed to do in a given situation. And knowing expectations and outcomes is what leads to calm confidence in a dog, fearful or not.

I don't disagree with the concept of clicker training; I just think it's more useful for simplifying things for the trainer than it is for clarifying things for the dog. I am confident in my ability to give immediate, clear, feedback using my voice, body, space, time, and I can fine tune that feedback and make it far more wide ranging and customized to the dog and the situation than a simple click which has one tone, one one volume, and often lacks context for the dog. To me it reduces training to a one dimensional interaction; I believe working with a dog is a four dimensional practice.

 

I don't condemn the use of a clicker, but I do think it's extremely limited in it's uses, and tends to lead to complacency and an over reliance on the part of the trainer.

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I completely agree that there are times when pressure is needed and beneficial, and also that skittish, flighty dogs NEED leadership. However, pressure is not the only way to lead a dog.

 

You don't need pressure to train a dog to come. You can train a reliable come without a leash and without reeling it in. I've never taught "come" with a long lead. But they still picked it up fast, and my adult dogs will stop on a dime mid-chase, turn around and come back if they're called. No pressure needed.

 

Clicker training/positive training is not wishy washy.

Simply asking a dog to come is adding pressure.

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