What is typical for a dog new to sheep

[Shetlander]

I hesitate to pester you working folks with my very ignorant question, but I am curious about what you can tell from a dog's first exposure to sheep. I took my sports bred collie to an agility person's home today and there were 9 sheep on her property. When Quinn saw them from a distance, he went stock still, very transfixed. As we walked towards the sheep, he became more excited than I've ever seen him lunging, barking and yelping.

 

The person we were visiting took him in the pen on leash and he really wanted those sheep, but I mainly saw a desire to chase, possible kill. Do brand new dogs ever act more like herders than wolves? She was able to get him to lie down and he even began to lie down on his own whenever they stopped.

 

Is Quinn's behavior pretty normal (15 months, first time to see sheep) or was it just a diluted chase instinct since he is sports bred? Thanks and if I should be pointed to the general discussion section, please just tell me and I'll move on

[Keegan's Mom]

Liz,

 

I have seen that many times in my newbie experience. Keegan still has a tendancy to chase and grip if nervous. Tess on the other hand has always gathered and NEVER gripped. Of course all Tess wants to do is gather the sheep. So I guess dogs are different.

 

Keegan has worked his chasing out for the most part...until we are some place new...but that is a different story.

 

Not that this answers your question, but just wanted to state my experience.

[kelpiegirl]

I think the first time is just that- it is all new, and some dogs just don't engage their brains at first. I wouldn't make any judgements at this point- just get him on the sheep several more times and go from there

Julie

[Bill Fosher]

Sounds like there's still a border collie under his bandana to me.

[Shetlander]

Thanks for the feedback. That instinct is pretty powerful stuff. I'll see what I can do to find Quinn some sheep A friend had one of her sports bred dogs along as well and this is a bitch who has some very problematic snarking at dogs and lots of control issues. A couple of people (sports folks, not working ones) have commented this is because of the dog's strong working lines. So we thought she'd be the one who was nuts to see the sheep but she was actually frightened of them. Meanwhile my goof, happy go lucky dog turned into a wolf.

[Skye]

I'd like to echo the feedback already given. My older BC (now 13+) was instinct-plus from day one. He first saw sheep at age 5 months and immediately was "all work, no play" about the whole thing. He saw them (in a small paddock, through a fence), went into an amazing crouch, and did the most incredible instinctive walk-up as a pup. He's always been like that, and HOT HOT HOT when on the sheep (and hard-headed at times! LOL). The hardest part of working with him is slowing him down because he's so strong-eyed and eager. I never got him beyond the novice level because I never had easy access to sheep, and now he's got a bum shoulder, but he would have been an amazing trial dog if I could have worked him regularly (he was also amazing at flyball and agility when he could do those - now we do "dull-roar" activities *g*).

 

My second BC (who is now 11+) was a polar opposite. He saw his first sheep when he was around 6 months and was a complete maniacal fool. Tail up, spastic, I think even barking (my #1 dog *never* barks around sheep, ever). He was, without doubt, interested in them (very interested), but he didn't "get it" ... he just thought it was a fun game. I kept taking him with me to sheep whenever I worked my #1 dog, but he was always the same - tail up, prancing around, acting the fool.

 

Then one day we went to an island muster to get semi-wild sheep off of an island near Nova Scotia. I kept this dog tied at the mustering station while using my #1 dog to help find the strays. When the sheep were back in the paddocks awaiting transport to the mainland, milling around, my #2 dog was barking away and the other shepherds were teasing me about my "barking sheep dog" (very embarrassing!). I was getting fed up with him, to be honest. I finally let him off leash and he sped around the paddocks acting his usual fool self (around sheep - don't get me wrong he was/is a smart dog, just more whacky than my einstein-thinking version of a #1 dog). Then it happened. It was as if someone reached into his 22 month old brain and switched his "I'm a sheep dog" swith to the "ON" position. He went into a crouch, eyed a sheep that was eyeing him, and ever since then he's been turned on and in working mode!! It's amazing - it literally happened all of a sudden. His tail went down, he shut up, and he got to work. He is a weaker-eyed dog and works at a distance (hard to get him to go between stock and a fence in tight quarters, for example), but nice style and again would have been a good trialler at novice level had I had easier access to sheep on a consistent basis.

 

Moral of my (long - LOL) story? Every BC comes to sheep in his/her own way, and in his/her own time. Some never will and don't have a strong enough instinct, so people have to be reasonable and realistic about the dog they have and, if they are new to this, get an experienced person to watch their dog on stock to see if there is any glimmer of talent/instinct under the surface waiting to come out. But if you're willing to be patient and your dog is showing interest, even if he/she starts out spastic and foolish and tail-up/playing/stupid with the sheep, give time for maturity and experience to kick in and you never know what might come to pass! Then again, when you start with a dog like my #1 dog who shows strong talent from day 1, it's pure pleasure (but also like trying to channel the energy from a lightning bolt - ROTFL!!!) and amazing and gives you tingles to watch the poetry in motion (and the chaos when the novice pup flies in for the first few times!) hehehehe.

 

Cheers!

Skye

[Black Watch Debatable]

[Shetlander --- I'm not rolling my eyes at you! I'm ranting about those "sports folks."]

A friend had one of her sports bred dogs along as well and this is a bitch who has some very problematic snarking at dogs and lots of control issues. A couple of people (sports folks, not working ones) have commented this is because of the dog's strong working lines.

 

A picture is worth a thousand words, so I'm off to Kinko's to scan an old photo: it's a snap of Queen, my Bracken's dam, at the Montgomery ranch watching Open runs during the Porterville Spring Trial, close to twenty years ago. Queen isn't leashed, and no one had told her to sit and stay. She was tagging along with her handler before their run, and she stopped for a minute to watch something that caught her eye. (As for "strong working lines" --- Queen was an imported daughter of Templeton's Roy.)

 

"Control issues"?! "Snarking at dogs"?! Those sports folks need to attend a USBCHA trial. Take a look at the dogs off lead, all of them well behaved --- there are no control issues and precious little snarking. Honestly, how do people come up with this stuff? I imagine if all you do with a working border collie is take it to agility classes a few times a week, you might have some issues with that dog. But that would have far more to do with management than DNA.

 

If you love golf, you're going to do more than play mini-putt on the computer once or twice a week. And what golf fan would turn down a chance to spend a day on the local course with Tiger Woods? I seriously don't understand how anyone can claim to know the first thing about border collies without attending a number of USBCHA trials. It reeks of Katz, actually:

[Katz] says the show breeder from whom he got his border collies, whom he portrays as supremely knowledgeable, "thought some of the herding partisans were plain fanatics, breeding needlessly hostile, undomesticated dogs." This is an absurdity, and yet, since the book was published, I have noticed a number of border collie newcomers posting here -- as if it were a known and accepted fact -- that working border collies are bred without regard to temperament, that they are wild and aggressive, and that if you want a dog you can live with and who won't kill your cockatoo you must go to a show breeder. I'm sure that, thanks to Katz, this is widely believed now. [Link to Eileen's original post.]

Oh, and Liz --- ye gods, you and Quinn need to find a good sheepdog trainer! You both will love working sheep. It's perfectly normal for a working-bred dog to look like a heat-seeking missile the first few times out, intent on death and destruction My Bracken (to cite just one example) was like that, and she matured into a calm, infinitely keen worker, very kind to her sheep.

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by Black Watch Debatable:

"Control issues"?! "Snarking at dogs"?! Those sports folks need to attend a USBCHA trial. Take a look at the dogs off lead, all of them well behaved --- there are no control issues and precious little snarking. Honestly, how do people come up with this stuff?

Oh, gee. I'm hoping that's a rhetorical question I'm so new to BC's and really while I've learned a lot during the past year with Quinn, much of that is how much I really don't know about these dogs. The fact is a lot of BC's in sports are snarky and/or try to control people and other dogs. This is typically described as herding instinct. As you know, the working and sporting worlds are pretty separate. At least they are around here. For instance, until I found these boards, I never heard the argument for getting a dog from working lines only.

 

Oh, and Liz --- ye gods, you and Quinn need to find a good sheepdog trainer! You both will love working sheep. It's perfectly normal for a working-bred dog to look like a heat-seeking missile the first few times out, intent on death and destruction

 

That's kind of a relief to hear! I knew Quinn had a lot of prey drive, but I was amazed at his intensity. I mentioned in another post yesterday that the thought bubble above his head seemed to be "killthesheepkillthesheepkillthesheep." Watching him, blood and mayhem danced in my head.

 

Quinny's breeding is everything these board deplore so I don't know that he has what your wonderful Bracken does. I'm going to see if I can find a trainer within reasonable distance who'd be willing to give my dog and his clueless owner a chance around sheep. The good news is I really never had any interest in having Quinn work stock so if he can't move out of what seems to me to be a chase and kill mode, I won't be crushed. On the other hand, if this is something he can learn to do a least semi-decently and he loves it (which I think he would), then I'd be very happy.

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by Skye:

Moral of my (long - LOL) story? Every BC comes to sheep in his/her own way, and in his/her own time. Some never will and don't have a strong enough instinct, so people have to be reasonable and realistic about the dog they have and, if they are new to this, get an experienced person to watch their dog on stock to see if there is any glimmer of talent/instinct under the surface waiting to come out. But if you're willing to be patient and your dog is showing interest, even if he/she starts out spastic and foolish and tail-up/playing/stupid with the sheep, give time for maturity and experience to kick in and you never know what might come to pass!

This is all so interesting! Thanks for sharing your experiences. I hope I can find someone close enough to work with and see how Quinn develops with exposure and lessons. At this time, I can't imagine wanting to ever compete, but if he has any ability and would enjoy working sheep (that seems to be a given), then I'd like to let him have the experience. And as far as being patient, I'm so ignorant and expect so little, I'm pretty sure I can accomplish that .

[Sue R]

Quinny's breeding is everything these board deplore so I don't know that he has what your wonderful Bracken does. I'm going to see if I can find a trainer within reasonable distance who'd be willing to give my dog and his clueless owner a chance around sheep.

It's the breeding and not the dog, as you are well aware, that is deplored. That said, you can get a dog with wonderful instinct and ability from a non-working background, and a dud as a stockdog from the most illustrious lineage possible. The odds are against it, but it happens.

 

Absolute best wishes in finding a trainer who is capable for you two to work with, at whatever level you both might be interested, and enjoy!

[Joe Anne]

Beware of the Herding Bug! There is no turning back once ya start~~~~~~~once it bites ya.... BAM! yer done fer!

My Phoenix was one of those "whacky/snarky", little bully boys, til we started herding lessons. Hmmm , I can tell you it straightened his little act out real quick (and mine too, actually).

He was 18 mos. old when first put in the pen/corral with sheep, just to see what his reaction would be.

At first he was very interested from outside the pen but didn't seem too interested inside with the sheep, then as we walked him closer...BAM, there he went. He appeared to be a "wolf after sheep", to me too.

We have gone to only 1, 3 day clinic and practiced a half dozen times or so with sheep and an experienced handler, and Phoenix is definately showing improvement, BUT, he still is lacking confidence, which I am sure will come.

Actually, I believe I am more the problem than my dog by a long shot.

There are days when he is pretty on target and does pretty dern good for a newbie, and some days he acts like the big bad wolf, but just let even 1 sheep turn around and stare him down, and Phoenix is done, done, done for the day and outta here!!!

It's like the food chain reverses itself or something. I mean it is like someone just turns off his switch, and he will go sit by the gate to let us know, I want OUT! NOW!!!!

He is still working in the corral, but I am hoping someday, (soon????) Ha, Ha... he will be in the field.

Anyway, it is soooo much fun, and the occassional adrenalin rush is good to keep ya young!

Go Fer It!