Do you hit?

[Ontario Gordon]

I have only hit my dog Clyde once, and I felt so bad afterwards. We had been moving some sheep around from different fields to get a good group to practice with. I had got about 20 into a small pen, where I was going to take a few out at a time to do different training with the dog. Clyde was supposed to come in and just keep the sheep back and move them to the gate slowly, but for some reason he started to chase, which caused the sheep to panic. For the safety of the sheep (which aren't mine) I had to hit him on the ass to get his attention and lie him down. It worked, but I felt so bad afterwards.

 

I am a firm believer in positive and negative reinforcement. Positive being praise and letting the dog do what he would like to do. Negative being the opposite, which I take away what the are wanting to do. Physical force with the dog will usually be counter productive, as this could damage the bond between you.

 

As for trainers hitting your dog....I was going to a very well respected woman trainer, who has some strange ideas. I am new to sheep herding, but not new at training dogs. Because my dog wouldn't stop putting pressure on her sheep, she told me to get him to lie down and hold his collar. The training tool she had was a basket ball inside of a sack with the handle taped up. She used it to throw at the dogs if not doing what she wanted. She came over to me and the dog, and whacked him 3 times with the ball. She actually caught me on the back of the hand with the ball, which hurt like hell. I was told that her hitting the dog, it wouldn't hurt my relationship with my dog since it was her that hit him. But I was the one holding him on the ground letting this woman whack him. It happened so fast I didn't see it coming. Clyde wouldn't go near her after that, and neither did I.

 

I do believe that there is nothing wrong with giving a dog a quick smack to tell it off in certain situations, mainly just to get it attention or break its focus on something, but never hit your dog, especially while training as this is so counter productive. I am lucky to have found a local farmer which I am learning from and I can practice with his sheep when ever I want. He is a very mellow man and I am learning so many things from him. So it has been a good thing that I found out that not all "top" sheep trialists, are not all good trainers.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Mr. Gordon writes: "So it has been a good thing that I found out that not all "top" sheep trialists, are not all good trainers."

 

Sorry. Not true. Whether a top trialist buys his/her "trained/started" dog or trials his own pup that trialist must be a top trainer. Creating a winning team requires a deep physical understanding of how the sheepdog's mind works and how it can be influenced. Nobody but a top trainer can get the assurance and subtlety winning trials requires of a dog.

 

That said: while most top trialists are gentle, I have known a few brutes. Whilst one might hope the brutes would be penalized by poor results, such hasn't always been the case. I suspect, that like the abused human athlete, the abused top trial dog is swept up in its coach's passion for the work. As Vince Lombardi put it "Winning isn't everything. It's the only thing."

 

In sheepdogging, the brutes are rarer than they were when I started and they have little influence but that's an effect of our culture's evolving conscience (and, perhaps the presence of so many brilliant woman handlers) not whose dog wins or loses.

 

A minor point: Mr. Gordon writes of his "top trialist": "The training tool she had was a basket ball inside of a sack with the handle taped up. She used it to throw at the dogs if not doing what she wanted. She came over to me and the dog, and whacked him 3 times with the ball."

 

Ontario has some very fine sheepdoggers. I don't know any who would use such a whackadoo tool to train a sheepdog.

 

Donald McCaig

[geonni banner]

Dear Doggers,

 

Mr. Gordon writes: "So it has been a good thing that I found out that not all "top" sheep trialists, are not all good trainers."

 

Sorry. Not true. Whether a top trialist buys his/her "trained/started" dog or trials his own pup that trialist must be a top trainer. Creating a winning team requires a deep physical understanding of how the sheepdog's mind works and how it can be influenced. Nobody but a top trainer can get the assurance and subtlety winning trials requires of a dog.

 

 

Donald McCaig

I must respectfully disagree, though I would ordinarily bow to your superior knowledge of all things sheepdog, I cannot accept this. The trainer may be very knowledgeable and be good at getting the dog to do what's needed when it's needed, but no one who needlessly badgers and batters a dog can, in my estimation, be called a good trainer. Effective, yes, perhaps, in many ways. But lacking a critical element - respect for the animal.

 

Having seen a video of a trialist bellowing at his charge throughout its run, and seeing that dog, when returning to the stands area with his owner, fleeing off camera at a run - tail clamped and head down. I might have admired some of the work done on the field, but not the relationship between the dog and its handler.

 

True, that handler did not win that day, the dog was called in before finishing his run. But I understand the handler has done a great deal of winning. I don't remember his name, and wouldn't repeat it here if I did. And perhaps the dog was of an anxious and fearful temperament. But if that were so, why would a seasoned trialist have run such a dog?

 

As for the OPs experience - it's only my opinion, but anybody who bashes a dog while it is lying down, held in place by its owner is not a good trainer. I don't care how many sheepdog trials he or she has won.

 

I don't believe dogs should necessarily be mollycoddled, and there are times when stern measures may be called for. But even many of those folk with lots of experience with working dogs could not condone this trainer's actions - yet this person is apparently accorded by some the designation of a "top trainer."

[Ontario Gordon]

What I was getting at when I said not all top trialist don't make good trainers was, just because you can train your own dogs, doesn't mean you can train other people to train their own dogs. And this is true in all aspects of life. Not always the best peole at their job etc make good teachers of that work. It takes a special person to train others. It can be very difficult to try to get someone to do something that you find so easy and they just cant do it.

 

As for the trainers in Ontario, you are right Donald. There are a huge amount of excellent trainers and trialists also. But some people can be extreme in what they do. I could name the person who beat my dog, but I wont, because I do respect them. I just wont go to them for lessons. Its one thing being a perfectionist with your own dogs to win competitions. But its another to go to the extreme that I witnessed first had. I have also never seen such a training tool "ever" used by anyone else, but I assure you, it is use by one person.

 

I know I am a beginner at training dogs around sheep, but I am not new to training dogs and also people.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

When I said top trailists must be excellent trainers, Mr. Gordon corrected me thus: ". . .when I said not all top trialist don't make good trainers was, just because you can train your own dogs, doesn't mean you can train other people to train their own dogs."

 

He is, of course, correct. I shan't belabor the original topic but remark how this terminological misunderstanding points up another difference between the commonplace understanding of dogs and human/dog interactions (derived from the dog fancy) and sheepdog culture's understanding.

 

When Mr. Gordon wrote about a "trainer", he meant the person who helps civilians learn how to train/work with/live with their (usually) pet dogs. In the sheepdog world, the closest fit for that job description is "clinician" or, less commonly, "coach". Many/most open handlers formally or informally coach novices. Every open sheepdogger I know has or has had a mentor or "coach" and most, myself included, still employ coaches and/or clinicians. When sheepdoggers speak of a "trainer" we mean that person who trains his or others' dogs. Period. Some top trainers- especially in the UK - take their sheepdog satisfactions from training and rarely if ever trial.

 

To be sure, some dog fancy "trainers" will take in problem dogs for "board and train" - as do (a few) sheepdoggers. But only a reckless pet dog trainer would simply return the "trained" dog to its "untrained"owner. Usually owner training is part of the package.

 

On the contrary (and perhaps to our discredit) trained sheepdogs are very often sold to new owners who barely know a dog's head from its tail.

 

 

Donald McCaig

[Sue R]

Dear Doggers,

 

Mr. Gordon writes: "So it has been a good thing that I found out that not all "top" sheep trialists, are not all good trainers."

 

Sorry. Not true.

Mr McCaig - Mr. Gorder used the word, "good", as I have emphasized. A brute, as you describe the occasional abusive trainer, is not a "good" trainer (of any sort) even though the results may put him/her at the "top" at times. And, of course, as further pointed out, being a good or top trainer of dogs, does not mean someone is a good or top trainer of handlers, as I think we all agree.

 

JMO. And you know I respect your opinions.

 

And, yes, there are working dog people who sell to whomever has the money, whether they deserve the dog (or pup) or not.

[Tea]

I have shook the ruff of a lead dog on my sled team for fighting...gotten down and growled at him at the same time. (I am not a trainer.) But fighting cannot be allowed ever.

 

Once my sled passed my balled up fighting team down a steep hill.

 

most of the village type sled dogs love a good fight.

 

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But the Sheep dogs. No- I feel bad if I raise my voice- vowing to be like the quiet handlers that help me.

 

 

It is a dance.

 

 

 

Xenophon said 'A dancer cannot be taught with whips and chains' He said this over 2000 years ago meaning the training of the war horse.

 

 

 

And these dogs must love me- and forgive my many errors or we simply cannot get our work done.

 

 

 

Today I was impatient- Telling little Taw go out that way....into the woods and you will find them.

 

 

 

My horse, young and restless was bothering me.

 

 

 

Taw went out and then stopped and turned off. And I saw a single little glance my way.

 

'they are not there.'

 

 

 

I was about to yell. But then bit my fool tongue. She may be right I thought, wait.

 

 

 

And she did bring the erant loose ram lambs minutes later from an altogether different place out of the deep woods surrounding Doan's land.

 

300 acres

 

And I would have yelled, I would have yelled.

 

 

 

Old Pop used to tell me this, of course he was talking about horses

 

'They only know what you have shown them, what you have taught them.'

 

 

 

it Seems the Sheepdogs know the steps but we provide the dance floor, the music and the partners. And hopefully the floor is solid, the music rythmic and the partners full of grace.

[geonni banner]

Amen, Tea.

[Gloria Atwater]

Tea, I do love you. Thanks for that.

 

~ G

[D'Elle]

Lovely little bit of writing, Tea. Thanks.

[Sue R]

Wonderful, as always, Tea.