Mark Billadeau Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 More articles on conditions Report: Immigrant Shepherds Endure Woeful Conditions in Colorado In Loneliness, Immigrants Tend the Flock Some of the conditions the authors complain about seem to me to be just "part of the job" (no electricity and indoor plumbing) while living out on the range. Some of the conditions are just simply employer abuse of an under-protected group of workers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 Hum? My Grandparents were illegals. And my Mother's family had been here in this country for thousands of years. Everyone should visit the backstretch of the local racetrack. They should go watch their food being picked. Cesar Chavez My husband and I in the past both employed illegals. I in the horse buisness He in farming. Why? No one else came forward. Come get me La Migra!!!! The folks we hired were good, hardworking, honest people. Trying like everyone on earth, to have a good and decent life. Oh Jorge...I write this for you! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On another note of why. When you travel to the far north....I mean far north...yukon, northwest territories. People are more helpful, they are tougher in the bush but helpful. Why? There are few of them And they never know when they will need a hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3msmom Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 In good times as a worker, you have the option of looking at a situation and if it's not good working conditions passing it over and looking further. If the boss wants help they're going to have to make the job attractive. In this economy a job is a job and to have one is a BIG deal. That puts the power in the hands of the boss, there will be some one hard up enough to accept the poor conditions so nothing needs to change for the boss to get the job done. Simple suppy and demand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Beautifully said, as ever, Tea. Mark, you've hit the nail on the head. I sigh and kind of shake my head over the, "OMG, no electricity! No running water!" remarks. I've lived weeks and months at a time without either, and done so comfortably. It's part of camp life, on the ranch. So, in that instance, some of these do-gooders are out of touch and needlessly wringing their hands. After all, some or many of these workers may have no electricity or running water back in Mexico, too... And the lack of a day off? It was much the same when we were cowboying. You do the job when the job needs doing, and you get time off when the season's over. However, the repeated remarks that the herders are forbidden to leave the property or can't have visitors puzzle and disturb me. Are they being held prisoner, or is it a misconception by the workers themselves, because they don't have cars or a US driver's license? If they are being deliberately isolated, that bears looking at. Why is it being done, if true? And if ranchers are, as the one article suggests, habitually and as a matter of practice deducting the basic necessities of living from the shepherds' wages ... that is just plain wrong. That IS indentured servitude and the system needs to change. They wouldn't pull that with an American cowboy, and they can't be permitted to do it to a herder who can't speak English, or won't punch them in the eye. I'm still suspicious of too much government intervention, simply because there is a disconnect of perception, between what's genuine abuse and what's just a lack of light bulbs or flush toilets. One is unconscionable. The other is part of the life. I hope whatever powers-that-be can make decisions that help the industry, not just sink it under the weight of over-regulation. ~ Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearse Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Beautifully said, as ever, Tea. Mark, you've hit the nail on the head. I sigh and kind of shake my head over the, "OMG, no electricity! No running water!" remarks. I've lived weeks and months at a time without either, and done so comfortably. It's part of camp life, on the ranch. So, in that instance, some of these do-gooders are out of touch and needlessly wringing their hands. After all, some or many of these workers may have no electricity or running water back in Mexico, too... This is the first argument that is always trotted out to justify the maltreatment of migrant workers "they would be working in worse conditions and for less money back home in Mexico" Really? That's the standard by which we are now judging life in the United States? What people don't realize is that is exactly what some of these companies want. They want American workers reduced to the level of workers in third world countries so that they can make the same kind of profits here that they can make there. They get away with it with migrant workers because American workers have this weird notion that they're not from here so it's OK. Well newsflash people. Today it's OK for migrants. Tomorrow it's OK for you and me. The second specious argument isL "well if we pay these people a decent wage, the cost of food will go up". Again, where does your right to cheap food trump someone else's right to a living wage and humane working conditions? Based on what I see every day, the average American would not suffer greatly from a rise in the price of their food. Quite the contrary. And the lack of a day off? It was much the same when we were cowboying. You do the job when the job needs doing, and you get time off when the season's over. However, the repeated remarks that the herders are forbidden to leave the property or can't have visitors puzzle and disturb me. Are they being held prisoner, or is it a misconception by the workers themselves, because they don't have cars or a US driver's license? If they are being deliberately isolated, that bears looking at. Why is it being done, if true? This isn't about a day off. It's about being required to work essentially 24 hours a day, seven days a week, for an entire season, with almost no contact or support (you can't leave the property if you are hell and gone in the mountains with no vehicle). It's being done because the operators don't want to pay for a relief crew or for the fuel and time to drive out to the sheep camp, bring them into town, and return them to the flock. And if ranchers are, as the one article suggests, habitually and as a matter of practice deducting the basic necessities of living from the shepherds' wages ... that is just plain wrong. That IS indentured servitude and the system needs to change. They wouldn't pull that with an American cowboy, and they can't be permitted to do it to a herder who can't speak English, or won't punch them in the eye. Standard practice in a lot of these operations. Perhaps not in the best of them, because some ranchers see value in getting good people who'll return season after season, but widespread enough. I'm still suspicious of too much government intervention, simply because there is a disconnect of perception, between what's genuine abuse and what's just a lack of light bulbs or flush toilets. One is unconscionable. The other is part of the life. I hope whatever powers-that-be can make decisions that help the industry, not just sink it under the weight of over-regulation. This is NOT about lack of running water or flush toilets. That was just the misdirection that the original article used to trivialize the problem (along with the Posturpedic mattress lie, and the BS figure of $38 billion). This is about men being exploited because they have no recourse. These are NOT illegals for the most part. You can get a work visa to be a sheepherder pretty easily. What this is about is men being asked to do a hard job without being given a fair wage or the basic necessities of life. The sheep camps are often filthy and in poor repair. The food is often crap. They frequently have no communication with the outisde world if they get sick or injured. And they get paid next to nothing. Their basic pay is pretty much below minimum wage to start with, and then a lot of outfits deduct food, "lodging" (aforementioned filthy wagon), equipment etc.. until what little they are making is reduced to next to nothing. I used to work in very similar conditions in tree planting camps when in college. The work was hard, planting on cut blocks on the sides of mountains in wet muddy conditions most of the time. You could make good money if you were strong and fit, busted your ass, and didn't get hurt. We lived in tents and got to town every two or three weeks when we moved to a new site. The good operators provided a tent with a stove for drying gear and getting warm once a day, and a cook tent with a cook so that you ate well. Maybe even a shower tent. The fly-by-night operators low-balled the bids on contracts, you cooked your own food (which meant a lot of people exhausted from the days work didn't eat well and got sick). There was no where to dry gear, and you frequently got stiffed on your paycheck. Word got around, and people avoided those outfits. Over time (after my time) more and more of those outfits started hiring migrants and recent immigrants who didn't speak English. They got more contracts and drove out many of the good operators. Finally, when several camps of sick and starving planters made the six o'clock news, the government stepped in with regulations (ironically, many of these operators were bidding on government contracts which were awarded to the lowest bidder by government policy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Boy, I am afraid I am too cornfused to state much more about this. And also I am speaking about thirty years ago when I talk of these times. But I can relate what I personally saw and experienced first hand. Before I ran my own barn and could help more those who worked for me. I saw some terrible living conditions. I myself lived pretty hard. But I wished to ride and had no money in my family and if something you wish for is difficult you may still do it it with sacrafice. However it is easier when you are young. - I think of Jorge. He was old and came noth because he could make money in the states.Not more money....there were no jobs in mexico at that time. It may help to study the history of Mexico.Jorge sent this money home to his family every month. He was a just and kind old man. Once getting into a fist fight with a drunken cowboy with a pistol and getting the crap beat out of him for his pains. God...those days...glad they are far behind me. He was protecting us. He was at a barn I didn't run. I remember the guys coming to me to ask the Patron to improve their living conditions which were pretty grim. I spoke spanish. The Patron of the facility really didn't care. My crew and I the exercise people and grooms were one tiny step better off. Some of them were illegal as well. We were paid better. However Jorge's crew could play poker better! When I ran my own barn, we advertised, but no one would do the work. Nowadays when folks come to intern, most quit after a week, people are not used to hard work. It seems to be better aquired when you are young, and if you grew up in a more agricultural home. Of course many people do not realize that to some folks from Mexico, many believe California was stolen. I will not get into that aurgument but there you are. As far as laws go, towards the end of my horse career Amnesty had been put in place which helped these folks alot. And it was very controversial. How is it now? Well I watch the fields...... My own Pop's family came from Italia for very similar reasons. Can you legislate morality? I do not know. I only wish that folks would look into someone elses eyes and see themselves there reflected. -------------------------------------------------------- gaps are smaller? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 This is the first argument that is always trotted out to justify the maltreatment of migrant workers "they would be working in worse conditions and for less money back home in Mexico" Really? That's the standard by which we are now judging life in the United States? What people don't realize is that is exactly what some of these companies want. They want American workers reduced to the level of workers in third world countries so that they can make the same kind of profits here that they can make there. They get away with it with migrant workers because American workers have this weird notion that they're not from here so it's OK. Well newsflash people. Today it's OK for migrants. Tomorrow it's OK for you and me. The second specious argument isL "well if we pay these people a decent wage, the cost of food will go up". Again, where does your right to cheap food trump someone else's right to a living wage and humane working conditions? Based on what I see every day, the average American would not suffer greatly from a rise in the price of their food. Quite the contrary. This isn't about a day off. It's about being required to work essentially 24 hours a day, seven days a week, for an entire season, with almost no contact or support (you can't leave the property if you are hell and gone in the mountains with no vehicle). It's being done because the operators don't want to pay for a relief crew or for the fuel and time to drive out to the sheep camp, bring them into town, and return them to the flock. Standard practice in a lot of these operations. Perhaps not in the best of them, because some ranchers see value in getting good people who'll return season after season, but widespread enough. This is NOT about lack of running water or flush toilets. That was just the misdirection that the original article used to trivialize the problem (along with the Posturpedic mattress lie, and the BS figure of $38 billion). This is about men being exploited because they have no recourse. These are NOT illegals for the most part. You can get a work visa to be a sheepherder pretty easily. What this is about is men being asked to do a hard job without being given a fair wage or the basic necessities of life. The sheep camps are often filthy and in poor repair. The food is often crap. They frequently have no communication with the outisde world if they get sick or injured. And they get paid next to nothing. Their basic pay is pretty much below minimum wage to start with, and then a lot of outfits deduct food, "lodging" (aforementioned filthy wagon), equipment etc.. until what little they are making is reduced to next to nothing. I used to work in very similar conditions in tree planting camps when in college. The work was hard, planting on cut blocks on the sides of mountains in wet muddy conditions most of the time. You could make good money if you were strong and fit, busted your ass, and didn't get hurt. We lived in tents and got to town every two or three weeks when we moved to a new site. The good operators provided a tent with a stove for drying gear and getting warm once a day, and a cook tent with a cook so that you ate well. Maybe even a shower tent. The fly-by-night operators low-balled the bids on contracts, you cooked your own food (which meant a lot of people exhausted from the days work didn't eat well and got sick). There was no where to dry gear, and you frequently got stiffed on your paycheck. Word got around, and people avoided those outfits. Over time (after my time) more and more of those outfits started hiring migrants and recent immigrants who didn't speak English. They got more contracts and drove out many of the good operators. Finally, when several camps of sick and starving planters made the six o'clock news, the government stepped in with regulations (ironically, many of these operators were bidding on government contracts which were awarded to the lowest bidder by government policy) Hear, hear, Pearse. Business are sometimes run by moral and just people. More often they are run by people who don't give a damn about anything but the bottom line. I think that we Americans are used to a lifestyle that borders on the palatial, especially when compared to that of most of the rest of the world. We rail at the suggestion that farm and ranch workers be paid a fair wage because it will drive up food prices. God forbid we should have less money to spend on cable TV or a newer car to insure that someone else, who tends the plants and animals we eat should be able to be warm, dry, fed and shod decently. It is we Americans and the people in other countries who are desperate to emulate our standard of living who are destroying this planet with runaway CO2 emissions, and avid for things which are unnecessary and even bad for us. Most of us, myself included, would be s**t out of luck if we had to work that hard to earn even a meager living. We would starve. But we whine that our standard of living will decline if that of those workers who make our food improves. If we began to look at ourselves first and see how much we spend on what is desirable rather that what is necessary, we might not find the idea higher food prices so hard to bear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearse Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Hear, hear, Pearse. Business are sometimes run by moral and just people. More often they are run by people who don't give a damn about anything but the bottom line. I think that we Americans are used to a lifestyle that borders on the palatial, especially when compared to that of most of the rest of the world. We rail at the suggestion that farm and ranch workers be paid a fair wage because it will drive up food prices. God forbid we should have less money to spend on cable TV or a newer car to insure that someone else, who tends the plants and animals we eat should be able to be warm, dry, fed and shod decently. There are lots of Americans right now (about 6-7 million of us) who aren't deciding between cable TV or a new car but rather food on the table or pay the electric bill, or where they are going to sleep next week when their house gets foreclosed on. People who have done the right thing all their lives; gone to school, paid their taxes, worked hard. That's not all of us, but it's enough of us that we should all care about it, and be pressuring our business leaders and elected representatives to do something about it rather than playing games to get/keep themselves elected by kissing the asses of their wealthy benefactors and to hell with us. Most of us are about three or four paychecks from desperation. When you see someone in dire financial straits, remember that there but for the grace of god, good fortune, family, or friends go you or I. A decent politician died last week in Canada. The Honorable Jack Layton (one who deserved the honorific whether you agreed with his politics or not) said in his letter to Canadians published after his death: My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lana Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 When you see someone in dire financial straits, remember that there but for the grace of god, good fortune, family, or friends go you or I. No truer words ever spoken Pearse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Most of us are about three or four paychecks from desperation. When you see someone in dire financial straits, remember that there but for the grace of god, good fortune, family, or friends go you or I. Sadly we live in a culture of blame--one where many people look at people in dire straits and think (or even say) that those people must have done something to end up that way when, in fact, they just happened to be unlucky. It makes me sad that so many people care so little for the plights of the people in their own communities, let alone those whose suffering is even more removed. =============================== When I think about the way food is produced in this country, I am amazed at teh fact that prices are so low. But those low prices come at a cost--a great cost--not only to farm workers, but also to the animals being slaughtered, to the environment that deals with the waste and chemicals used to produce crops, and so on. We may not be paying the price in the grocery store, but you can bet we ARE paying a price, and it's not just what's rung up on the cash register. ================================ I listened to a piece NPR did on Jack Layton this morning. It sounds as if he was a truly honorable man indeed. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 We may not be paying the price in the grocery store, but you can bet we ARE paying a price, and it's not just what's rung up on the cash register. There have been a lot of thoughtful, true, sobering remarks made here on this page. This is just one of them. Thank you, Pearse. Thank you, Julie. Thank you, all. I need to quit my whining when I don't get what I want and be very, very grateful that I do have what I need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Sadly we live in a culture of blame--one where many people look at people in dire straits and think (or even say) that those people must have done something to end up that way when, in fact, they just happened to be unlucky. It makes me sad that so many people care so little for the plights of the people in their own communities, let alone those whose suffering is even more removed. =============================== When I think about the way food is produced in this country, I am amazed at teh fact that prices are so low. But those low prices come at a cost--a great cost--not only to farm workers, but also to the animals being slaughtered, to the environment that deals with the waste and chemicals used to produce crops, and so on. We may not be paying the price in the grocery store, but you can bet we ARE paying a price, and it's not just what's rung up on the cash register. ================================ I listened to a piece NPR did on Jack Layton this morning. It sounds as if he was a truly honorable man indeed. J. It's all true. I see it every day as the manager of a rooming house on SSI. I live fairly close to the curb, and many of the people who hand me their rent checks are closer still. Luckily for me and my tenants, the owner of the property is a kind and understanding man who is willing to wait sometimes for money when his renters hit a bad patch. But he is one of a rare breed. If the tea party types have their way I may have to fill up my little red wagon and check out the accommodations under the local freeway overpass. But for now I feel I have it pretty good - good enough to feel quite lucky, and to feel compassion for someone in a freezing cold Basque wagon in a Montana winter. ========== I don't eat a lot of meat, but my animals do. And although I ask questions about where it comes from, and try to buy organic meat and vegetables. I look for labels that say free-range and humanely certified. It's pricey yes. But I see it as a responsibility that I should not shirk as long as I am able. If only I could know that the meat my critters and I eat was all produced the way Tea does it. That would be wonderful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Pearse, I set myself up for that one. Your rebuttal is well-spoken and informed. Thank you. I regret sounding as if I'm condoning abuse of farm workers. Also, I was unaware that I was repeating a defense used by those who do willfully practice such mistreatment. Thus, I apologize in particular for that choice of words. And I apologize to all and sundry if it seems I excuse or condone maltreatment of migrant workers, many of whom can't even speak English to plead their case. I've worked with migrant workers, I see them all the time laboring at the edges of our everyday lives, and I respect (and value) the sweat, hard work and un-thanked hours they put in, often doing things most Americans wouldn't want to do unless we were on our last dime. (Moving hand lines across a hay field in 95 degree heat comes to mind.) In no way can maltreatment of these people be permitted. My suspicion of gov't intervention clearly led me to an unfortunate train of thought, so I'll bow out of this conversation, before I start looking like I go around with my pockets stuffed full of tea bags. Regards, Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 I will add one more thing. Our project right now is donating half our lamb crop and half our beef to our food bank. We also donate pet food which is donated to the project to help folks feed their animals. The reason I bring this up. Is the folks I see at the food bank on my small island are my friends. Many of them white collar, many in complete shock. We have done this for years. But now it is really needed. My husband and I are unpaid volunteers, we live close to the bone. We teach, butchering and shearing so young people can find jobs. We have never been helped by a big foundation or government grant. We give what we can through our work with the project. Everyone can do something to help. It is by grass roots and helping each other that we will get out of this. Local and slow. I never thought my friend would come up and quietly kiss a lamb and whisper thank you. You guys are great. I Have hope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 why was this on here twice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 I have to share this one other thing. A miracle. At the project the Slaughter guy donates the slaughter and cut and wrap for the food bank. He did this because the project asked him, if we donate the stock will you donate your time? He does. And the local Vet donates his time. These things start a circle. And we don't charge anything to teach. And interns are put up with host families for free. See what I mean? Start small but start something. Thanks......guys. oh Jorge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.