Caesar, a Rottie and herding?

[Pam Wolf]

They should be trying treiball instead!

[Pearse]

They should be trying treiball instead!

 

Touché!

 

The title of this thread illustrates two of the problems, in my opinion. Using "Border" when you mean Border Collie and "Rotti" when you man Rottweiler infantilizes the dogs, makes them perpetual puppies in people's heads. That makes it easier to excuse bad behavior.

 

It's a lot easier to get away with "the Rottie was playing a bit rough with the sheep" when what you mean is "That Rottweiler was mauling the sheep".

 

It's the same reason a lot of us dislike "herding" when what is supposed to be meant is "stockwork". "Herding" is a game where the dog is central. Stockwork is a way to move stock efficiently and with the least amount of stress on the stock. The stock animals are central. It may appear trivial, but it's the attitude "take my Rotti herding" that leads to travesties like this. Words matter as they convey an attitude and ethic.

 

Anyone who thinks it's ok to let a dog "drain himself" by chasing livestock around is guilty of stock abuse. Idiotic that someone would advocate that on National TV.

 

 

[Sue R]

It's the same reason a lot of us dislike "herding" when what is supposed to be meant is "stockwork". "Herding" is a game where the dog is central. Stockwork is a way to move stock efficiently and with the least amount of stress on the stock. The stock animals are central. It may appear trivial, but it's the attitude "take my Rotti herding" that leads to travesties like this. Words matter as they convey an attitude and ethic.

 

Thank you, Pearse, I thought yours was a great post and especially this part as this is something that frustrates me particularly.

 

Anyone who thinks it's ok to let a dog "drain himself" by chasing livestock around is guilty of stock abuse. Idiotic that someone would advocate that on National TV.

 

Whether it's "trains" or "drains" himself in 15 minutes, both ideas are equally ludicrous. ***Livestock are not dog toys!***

 

If you want to tire out a dog, work his mind with something like tricks or toys, not livestock. You won't be stressing and abusing the stock, and will be developing a closer bond with a dog that will benefit from the activity.

 

Your comments on how we use language are spot on.

[Maralynn]

and "Rotti" when you man Rottweiler infantilizes the dogs, makes them perpetual puppies in people's heads.

 

Or it means you're like me and are never quite sure how to correctly spell the word "Rottweiler" without the crutch of spell check...

 

But yup, I pretty much agree otherwise

[Debbie Meier]

Anyone who thinks it's ok to let a dog "drain himself" by chasing livestock around is guilty of stock abuse

 

Much the same as the many for fun and title seekers that refuse to do what it takes to correct their dog and hold them to the requirement of self control and proper work.

 

Recently I was speaking to someone that said they were not willing to abuse their dogs like we do, that they viewed the training that would need to be done to get their dog to the next level as abuse.

 

I pointed out to them that they need to totally give up exposing their dog to livestock as their dog is abusing the stock, the dog runs through, slashes and dives if the opportunity arises. IMO that person who was viewing training as abuse was still being an abuser and actually IMO a worse form, allowing it in the name of entertainment and personal gratification.

[juliepoudrier]

Debbie,

I'd be curious as to the response you got to your comments. It's funny how people don't want to correct a dog because that's mean, but see nothing wrong with the dog being abusive to the stock. More of our disconnected (from our agricultural roots) culture I suppose.

 

J.

[Sue R]

^^^ What Debbie and Julie said!

[geonni banner]

When I have voiced objections to livestock being abused by dogs or by poor husbandry I often hear people say, "What's the big deal? They're going to die anyway."

 

People don't want to look at the suffering of animals they routinely eat. It makes their complicity in cruelty "too real." Most people are happy with the bizarre mindset that steaks are born in cello-wrap & styrofoam, and that milk and eggs are somehow magically created in a carton. Deep down they know it isn't so, but the overwhelming evidence that is usually before them supports this notion.

 

People don't want to know. And the majority of those who have a guilty inkling that they should know are to lazy or squeamish to find out how the animals they eat are treated so they can make better informed choices about where to buy meat that has been raised using methods that are humane for the stock and produce more wholesome and nourishing meat and dairy products.

 

They can smile at a cartoon drawing of a pig wearing a chef's hat and apron, smilingly brandishing a carving fork. But that's not real. And for them, real pigs, sheep, cows and chickens are not real either. They are pleasing constructs of 19th century pastoral art.

 

It's no more disturbing to the average person to see a Rottweiler sink its teeth into a sheep's butt than it is for them to stick a fork into an anonymous hunk of meat on a plate.

 

I think Pearse is spot on. It's easy to trivialize the inappropriateness of a large heavy, aggressive dog glomming onto the backside of a sheep if you think and speak of it as a Rottie, just as it is easy to trivialize the pain of the sheep when you have no clear idea of what a sheep is, except the cute little ball of fluff with legs that is depicted on your pajamas. To contemplate the notion of good stockmanship, you have to think of livestock as living things that can experience pain and stress. The average person simply won't go there.

 

To most of you who work stock with your dogs, not stressing the stock with the dogs or anything else is only simple logic. But you already think of sheep and cattle as living things that have minds and nerve endings. And it is not only in their best interests to keep them as un-stressed as possible, it's in yours too. It affects your ease of handling with them and also their slaughter weight.

[Debbie Meier]

I'd be curious as to the response you got to your comments. It's funny how people don't want to correct a dog because that's mean, but see nothing wrong with the dog being abusive to the stock. More of our disconnected (from our agricultural roots) culture I suppose.

 

Responses are mixed, a rare few have a "Ah-ha" moment others just think I'm being a bitch and don't want them to come work dogs here continuing to feel that getting in a dogs face is abusive or that the dog has to be enjoying the encounter and that chasing is a sign of having fun.

 

I've had some that have elected to discontinue stock work with that particular dog or all together, others just move on to take their dog to a place that tells them that chasing and bitting will eventually lead them to good work or that justifies the chasing and bitting by blaming it on the livestock. Then they wonder why they never get past knee knocker sheep in a small arena and on to driving out in the open.

 

People don't want to know. And the majority of those who have a guilty inkling that they should know are to lazy or squeamish to find out how the animals they eat are treated so they can make better informed choices about where to buy meat that has been raised using methods that are humane for the stock and produce more wholesome and nourishing meat and dairy products.

 

 

Actually the worse offenders that I have seen are ones that would feel that animals are mishandles and mismanged during slaughter. They for some reason believe that the dog which is supposidly working bred by virtue of it's breed designation is making the right choice by the livestock. You hear it all the time, "My dog knows more about herding then I do", they believe that the sheep split as an evasion tactic to elude the dog, just because that is what sheep do and the dog had to bite the stock because the stock desirved it, basically the dog wouldn't do it if it wasn't the right thing to do.

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

 

How absolutely idiotic for someone to justify stock abuse by saying that "it is going to die anyway". Using that logic, it would be perfectly acceptable to smack that person over the head with a club for their comment, as they are going to die anyway.

 

My demo partner and I provide working sheepdog demonstrations at various events in this area, the largest being the Maryland Sheep & Wool Festival, which draws thousands of spectators each year. During our demos, we always sress the proper handling of the sheep, both by the dogs and by the handlers. We make certain that the message we convey is that sheep need to be treated with respect and that all handling should be done in a calm, quiet manner. While some in the crowd may take delight in seeing the sheep raced around the arena by an out of control dog, the majority understand and truly comprehend that the sheep are definitely not "dog toys".

 

Because we provide public demonstrations, we often are asked if someone could bring their dog to the farm to "let it chase the sheep, just for fun". We quickly let them know that "chasing" and "for fun" are not components of proper stock work, so no, they may not bring their dog to the farm for that purpose. I am sure that I could make a lot of money providing this service for pet owners, but it simply isn't going to happen at my farm.

 

Regards to all,

nancy

[Pearse]

When I have voiced objections to livestock being abused by dogs or by poor husbandry I often hear people say, "What's the big deal? They're going to die anyway."

 

 

 

 

The correct response to this is to punch them in the nose, or poke them in the eye. When they object say "what's the big deal, you're going to die anyway, or offer to have your dog chase their children around and bite them when they fall down because after all, they too are all going to die some day.

 

In the word from the infamous sign - "Morans!" (sic)

 

Pearse

 

 

 

[Tea]

At a properly managed USDA slaughter yard. There is a vet present. And having worked the yard with my dogs. I can tell you that the dog must be very powerful and quiet. And able to work close quietly and ignore all distractions but the job at hand. And you better be able to call them in to you quickly.

 

The last thing you want is having stock upset in that situation. Not only is it inhumane which hurts all the way round the circle. It can spoil the taste of the meat and wreak equitment and the yard.

 

and get you or your dog killed.

[Sue R]

...that the dog has to be enjoying the encounter and that chasing is a sign of having fun...

Not surprising in a society where "if it feels good, do it" is the mantra of many. For too many people, "having fun" is the goal of life and justifies an awful lot of unjustifiable behavior.

[Pearse]

Not surprising in a society where "if it feels good, do it" is the mantra of many. For too many people, "having fun" is the goal of life and justifies an awful lot of unjustifiable behavior.

 

I don't think it has anything to do with the permissiveness of society or lack thereof. I believe it stems from a fundamental lack of understanding of dogs and dog behavior, and a profound ignorance of livestock as living creatures deserving of proper care and handling. Some of it comes from an unwillingness to train dogs to behave properly and a misplaced belief that letting them tear around after someone else's sheep will somehow transform an ill-behaved dog into a properly behaved one.

 

Pearse

[Debbie Meier]

"Some of it comes from an unwillingness to train dogs to behave properly and a misplaced belief that letting them tear around after someone else's sheep will somehow transform an ill-behaved dog into a properly behaved one"

 

Many don't recognize that the dog is misbehaving, they are the same that have dogs acting like idiots at agility, the dog park and even allow the dogs to act out towards them. If you told them that their dogs were aggressive they would be shocked and deny the sweety-pie-muffin doesn't have a mean bone in his body and is great with kids and the elderly, see he has is CGC certificate

 

eta: I was cleaning up my computer desk and found a photo from about 6-7 years ago of our old red cattledog and a goat. I remember being proud of that shot, showed the dog really working, he was getting with it. I remember posting the shot to a different group and folks congratulating me on such a great worker. I look at the shot today and I am repulsed, the dog was being cagey and looking for the right place to take hold in an effort to take the goat down. That photo that I had saved is now in the garbage to be burned.

 

Guess I've been there, at the place where many others are totally not understanding, yes I had livestock background but not when it came to working dogs.

 

I was one that followed the thinking that if the dog was engaged and moving stock that he must be right, he's a herding dog after all, that was the thinking that was rewarded and confirmed by others.

 

It's amazing the number of people that had expirence beyond my own that told me that we would get there, that we could have what they have. Looking back, I don't want what they have, they are still struggling with a Novice course fetching sheep around a small pen. Back then it looked impressive, to a novice that knew nothing it looked like they had it all.

 

I believed them when they told me that they had trained a dog to double lift and outrun 300 yards. I had never seen it done, who was I to question their expirence.

 

I'm sure that someone that knew what they were looking at would have said "bull-s**t", but I didn't know what I was looking at and believed what I was told, until we ran across someone that was willing to speak up and expose the lie.

 

I think the only reason we listened was because we were seeing that what we were told was not working, but so many refuse to see the light or are not willing to walk away from the circle of friends that they have made all drinking the same kool-aide

[Tea]

eta: I was cleaning up my computer desk and found a photo from about 6-7 years ago of our old red cattledog and a goat. I remember being proud of that shot, showed the dog really working, he was getting with it. I remember posting the shot to a different group and folks congratulating me on such a great worker. I look at the shot today and I am repulsed, the dog was being cagey and looking for the right place to take hold in an effort to take the goat down. That photo that I had saved is now in the garbage to be burned.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

 

I think all of us have been there. And I am probably still there.

 

 

I appreciate your integrity and insight in saying this.

 

 

 

Because this is how the forum does a good job teaching!

 

 

 

Thanks!

[Debbie Meier]

I think all of us have been there. And I am probably still there.

 

Gosh Tea, we never stop learning, sometimes we amaze ourselves when the dogs accomplish something that we never thought possible.

 

I don't think that the average dog owner has seen how a dog should work properly or has seen what is possible. If they have, unless they were looking for it or had it explained they may not know what they are looking at or how to relate it to practical work in the case of seeing it at a trial. Once you understand and gain an appreciation it's easy to see how the work at a trial translates to practical on the farm work.

 

Thinking back before we moved to Iowa we knew two border collie breeders that used their dogs on stock (cattle), this was before we had border collies. As memory serves both were raising biters and chasers, we never saw them exhibit an ability to position their dogs or to drive the livestock to a specific place, basically the dogs job was to put pressure on the stock until they were told to stop.

 

That expirence greatly shaped what our vision was of a good working border collie. In part I think it is why Wayne never was impressed with border collies, from his perspective they were harder to call off then his cattle dogs, basically his cattle dogs were eaiser to handle and caused less trouble. Looking back I think what we were seeing was drive, ability and possibly talent out of control, the reason the cattle dogs were easier and appeared more useful to Wayne was due to them having less drive, ability and talent.

[geonni banner]

As a person with no experience with dogs working stock I can say that even when I watch video of good dogs working well I often don't get what is happening. It's why I bought the finals video from the Nationals last year. It is helping me to "get" what's going on between the sheep-dog-handler. The fact that there are many dogs doing the same course one after another is helpful - at least I know where the sheep are supposed to be going.

 

But even I can see that the Rottweiler in the video was harassing the sheep, not working them. Yes, it was his first time, and folk here have said their dog did no better the first time out. But this dog is not on job training. He isn't going to be trained and used to do stock work. He is there to wear him out, to blow off energy that could be blown off in other ways that don't involve biting and chasing sheep to no purpose.

 

If someone had an Afghan Hound or a Pekingese that was being trained to work stock in some useful way, under the guidance of someone who knew what they were doing I would say fine. But this Rottweiler, while he may have been under the eye of someone who is competent to train a stock dog, will never be trained with a goal to be useful for bringing the cows in to be milked or shifting 50 sheep from one paddock to another. And the people in the video standing there beaming and saying, "Look! He's herding! is going to be taken as an endorsement for stock harassment for those who know no better, and encouragement for them to take the Labrador Retriever or Soft-Coated Wheaten Terrier that they can't handle out to do the same. That is why I find the video depressing.

[coyotecreek]

When I have voiced objections to livestock being abused by dogs or by poor husbandry I often hear people say, "What's the big deal? They're going to die anyway."

 

 

I dont care if the animal is a breeding animal or destained for Camp Freezer, they get respect.

[2 Devils]

So I saw this episode (I rarely watch CM - don't like him). I guess I did not have a problem with the dog trying out herding but with the fact in many of the views of the dog throughout episode it seemed to have blood on its neck area. At one point it even looked like CM had blood on his hand from touching the rottweiler.

 

I don't herd with my dogs. I tried but my dogs are herding dropouts. It is sad when I can say my toy poodle showed more instinct than my eldest acd, bc mix, bc and borderjack. The rescue ACD has not been to sheep yet. She has impulse control issues but a neighbor now has sheep nearby and offered to allow me and my dogs to try herding with her sheep once she has everything setup. I will be on guard once I take the rescue in with the sheep as I suspect she will be a jerk.