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Well the one gal compared breeding for looks and breeding for working ability as doing the same amount of damage to the breed , and that working breeders were guilty of breeding to extremes, I called her on it and asked her to show me an example but of course she didn't reply....

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I think that many show people feel that if you are breeding "for working ability alone" (as we often put it), they do not realize (or admit) that that includes temperment, soundness, instinct, focus, biddability, intelligence, stamina, health, and all those other *necessities*. That's because they don't understand working ability and what it means and requires, IMO. And I'm not sure they want to understand because that would not support their position that breeding to a physical "standard" is the ultimate in responsible breeding.

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Well the one gal compared breeding for looks and breeding for working ability as doing the same amount of damage to the breed , and that working breeders were guilty of breeding to extremes, I called her on it and asked her to show me an example but of course she didn't reply....

Nope, didn't she say she was done with the discussion?

 

I have myself been blind about more than one issue over the years - but I think this woman takes that to an extreme by being determinedly blind to reality.

 

PS - Geesh, talk about wasting the day (or big chunks of it) when I have lots of work staring me in the face (and not even the excuse of a party night last night...)

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That one caught my attention, too, Sue. Mostly because it captures exactly the process through which instinctual abilities are lost in human controlled breeding programs. All kidding aside, at least some (maybe most) folks involved in conformation breeding sincerely believe they can preserve instinctual ability this way. That group has over 1200 members.

 

Yes. Most conformation breeders of any working breed believe this. Its such an ingrained part of their culture and its caused the ruination of so many dogs.

 

 

Those same people can take a photo of a useful dog from decades back that resembles the show standard and proudly proclaim that there is the proof! (And, in the case I saw on that group, not even spell the dog's name right when it's right there on the photo, along with other famous dogs that certainly do not meet any sort of arbitrary show standard.)

 

I spend a lot of time on the PDE blog site and it happens regardless of teh breed. I saw one dedicated person explain how the excessive wrinkles and drooping eye on today's Neo Mastiff are required based on a photo from way back who didn't have said extremes.

 

Don't these people realize that they are going about it all backwards? The work defines and proves the dog, not the "look" or the written "standard" that someone has sat down and written (most likely, with little real understanding of what makes a dog useful).

 

They don't. They have convinces themselves that function follows form, not the other way around.

 

 

.It's like looking at Fabio, and expecting him to be able to frame up a house, or hang sheet rock all day, just because he has bulky, shiny muscles.

 

OK, I spewed coffee... :P

 

Oh, because people like that think that breeding for the work is only breeding for one single aspect, instinct, perhaps? How could someone be so ignorant? The comments on that group are only good for a laugh, and only if you don't realize how many people totally believe in them.

 

Thats it in a nutshell. The whole culture has convinced so many people that this is how it works...its so hard to break through that mentality. I have pissed off so many people at various dog events by stating what I think is the obvious...I wrote in another thread about how I tried to explain why my BC looked different from the show BC standing next to me at tracking group (to a person with a Visla who asked), and I even tried to do it politely, and I haven't been invited back to tracking group since. :(

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I just read through some of that pathetic crap, and what's baffling to me is that none of the excuses have changed in all the years I've been doing this. You'd think they'd come up with something new by now.

 

"It's not that show dogs can't work, it's that they don't work. Not everyone is a farmer and has access to sheep, you know."

 

I loved the sheer rocket scientist that came up with this one:

"I would like to draw attention to the name of the group, especially STRUCTURE EVALUATION. It's nice with all the people evaluating the pictures but the discussion of working dogs against show dogs are not relevant."

 

Now someone please tell me how the working end of the dogs is not relevant when talking about structure. The Barbie folks' big claim to fame is that they know how to build a better dog that can work all day long. So if they're not evaluating the show dog on how they should look to be able to WORK, what is the point? (<--- rhetorical)

 

And the lovely Cathy Saxon pipes in: " hobbiest who think they know it all"

 

And I love the way the owner of the group goes and changes the purpose of the group now to (typos are not mine):

 

"A group created to help people learn more about evaluating the structure of Border Collies. This group is provided so that individuals can upload "stacked" or photos of Border Collies in motion that relate to the structure of Border Collies for constructive evaluation by others in the group.

 

Please be prepared to receive both good and "not so good" comments....but please remember to be kind, no arguing. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. In the end the dogs all have loving homes and that is what counts!!!

 

Memebers will be REMOVED if posts are not kept flame free or if someone is consistanty going off the topic of structure.

 

This group is NOT here for people to argue about AKC vs ABCA/ISDS/CBCA BC types. ALL types and ages of Border Collies are up for evaluation."

(emphasis mine)

 

Unfortunately, there is nothing anyone can say to convince any one of the fluffy owners to get off their duff, drop the excuses and go work their dogs on stock (beyond chasing three dog-broke sheep in a round pen) to see how far from reality their theories are. And that, in my opinion, would be the only way they'd see it. It will never happen.

 

Some are talking about a breed split. What's there to split? Show dogs and working dogs have been shown to be genetically different ... but don't tell the show people that. They'd come unglued.

 

Just like every other show discussion, if you bring in the working end of the discussion, everyone quits. Imagine that. heat, kitchen, etc.

 

 

 

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How about the second quote below, in answer to a person who works and trials his dogs in Europe, who stated that (with reference to a photo of his very stylish dog working):

"This dog will work forever, this is a shot of a well focussed, intense dog. A short legged heavy boned dog would never be run the hills all day long. Many show dogs would never be able to keep up. These are the dogs that started this breed and in my opinion show dogs are spoiling the breed"

 

And the reply (from the same person who decided to no longer address the issue with Betty, which we both referenced in earlier posts here) with my emphasis:

"I disagree with your comment about show dog's spoiling the breed. It's breeders that have lost sight of what the BC should look like that are spoiling the breed. I've seen photo's of dogs on here from both extremes, from the short legged, heavy boned/coat type, to the over-sized, lanky, short coupled, light boned coyote type. In my opinion the breeders of both types (show and working, my comment) are equally at fault for spoiling the breed. Your dog is a lovely example of what the BC should look like, and breeders from both camps (again, show and working, my comment) should take a long hard look at him."

 

And yet again, from this same person, "Yes I know, it gets me down too. There's none so blind as those that refuse to see." Duh?

 

And yet another gem, from a different contributor to a different thread there: "The Breed Standards are devised to give guidelines for the most balanced, effective and suitable specimine for the job... it you want to show it off iun the ring then that is what you should be aiming for..." (only one typo corrected, joy to job)(again, my emphasis)

 

I need to quit doing this - there is enough there that is either silly enough or deluded enough that I could go on for hours, and I have much more important things to do - why do I let myself get so wrapped up in such a frustrating never-ending circle of stupidity? I know, that was mean-spirited but I've run myself into it just considering all these ridiculous comments - and that people believe in them!

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Sorry, I couldn't pass this one up:

"Go back and read your Breed Standards folks. The answers are there. Every word is carefully chosen and every phrase is relevant. DON’T miss bits out because it doesn’t suit you. That’s why things go wrong.

If your dog isn’t deep & muscular in the loin, but is cut up behind, then it’s wrong. If your dogs tail is high set or is straight and doesn’t have the required upwards swirl, then it’s wrong. If your dog is cow hocked then it’s wrong. If your dog’s ears are big &/or heavy, then they are wrong.

It doesn’t matter what you do with your dog… show-sheep-agility-whateve​r… a dog bred to the Breed Standard can do it all." (again, emphases mine)

 

How my dog looks is not what gets the job done on thirty head of mama cows with small calves at side. And has done for the last (almost) eight years. And the same for my working-bred Aussie who did the job for about 12 years before that.

 

Please, if I waste more time looking over there and posting on this topic here, PM me and tell me to quit wasting time and emotion, and get some work done. That's what the dogs would do.

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You won't have to worry about it, Sue.

 

Kim Russell - This group will be deleted shortly...as soon as I figure out how to do so...Sad I need to so but to be honest, this is not what I was hoping to create. Diversity in our breed, as with humanity, should be embraced, not slammed to the ground.

 

See? If it's not easy, quit.

 

"Diversity." Yeah.

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(Not Sue's words, but those she quoted) . . .

 

If your dogs tail is high set or is straight and doesn’t have the required upwards swirl, then it’s wrong . . . It doesn’t matter what you do with your dog… show-sheep-agility-whateve​r… a dog bred to the Breed Standard can do it all."

 

Oh dear. I must remove Dean from Agility at once. His tail is high set and he holds it up most of the time in a big swirl. Surely he can't run, jump, climb, weave, or tip a teeter properly with that darn tail being all wrong.

 

Drat.

 

Sorry, Sue, I removed the note that the emphasis was yours, but it still is. :D

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"Diversity." Yeah.

Not if one believes in adhering to "the breed standard" - isn't that the antithesis of "diversity"?

 

On the other hand, breeding for the work encourages a reasonable level of diversity, because the work itself is diverse - different landscapes and farm/ranch situations; different livestock; different jobs to be done.

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Now they are considering keeping the group, but the theme is ... "remove the troublemakers." I imagine their definition of a troublemaker is anyone who thinks these dogs should be bred to a working standard, and not the ridiculous crap they breed for.

 

Same old, same old. Yawn.

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It was very interesting while it lasted ;-) I'll be curious to see if I'm labled a trouble maker LOL I really did try to be diplomatic...I imagine that that Tony guy will get the boot ;-) he was a bit obnoxious about the tail thing IMHO.

I find it rather curious how insecure these folks (the show collie peeps) are about their dogs. They are offended by being referred to as Barbie collies, yet that's what they seem to aspire to. People can refer to Stella all day long as a coyote Border Collie, or hyena or whatever, doesn't bother me in the least, as I know what she's capable of, and that she's a good example of what a Border Collie should be, therefore I have nothing to be insecure about. I find it very frustrating that these folks can't connect the dots and see that breeding for physical attributes like coat color, eye color etc...is not a good idea and/or good for the breed, and that they can't see the diff. btwn breeding for looks and breeding for working traits....just makes no sense to me.

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So has the entire FB group been deleted then? Or am I blocked? Maybe all these submissions of unstacked dogs were too much for the group.

 

I'll bet that group was chuggin' along just fine until members of these boards got wind of it. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

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You folks sure have fun with this :D

Bonnie once got a "very good" (instead of "excellent")at a show because she is supposedly too leggy and has lots of height, length but no breadth, poor two-dimensional thing! But in the male category there was a Killibrae dog who also got a "very good" only. So it made my day :D: obviously we are going in the right direction :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: . Now if only Julie would send Ranger my way...

 

Maja

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I've been lurking here off and on for some time, this has finally brought me out of the woodwork.

 

I'm not a BC 'expert' as many of you in your clique claim to be, however I have had a border collie since 1981, the first one I found as an 11 month old pup in the pound. Since they were not being registered with AKC back then, she was not a 'Barbie Collie'. She was however a wonderful dog that suited me well. When she passed I got another pup, this time a BC mix (3/4 BC, 1/4 heeler.) This dog came from a ranch and working parents. She was a good dog too, but had many issues, some related to temperament, some healthwise structurally, but overall she was a great dog, so much so, in her last 3-4 years when she went diabetic and blind, I gave her insulin shots every day, was her 'seeing eye human', and despite these issues, she continued to enrich my life.

 

A year after she had passed, I decided to get another dog, this time a full blooded BC. I did a lot of looking around, but all I could find within a day or two drive of my location (I wanted to see the pup for myself, I don't like the idea of crating a young pup I've never seen and sticking it on a plane) were dogs from working lines, which I don't have a problem with except I DID want it to resemble my first BC, and some of the working lines, frankly don't. But the biggest hindrance I found was all of these breeders I found, insisted on the pups going to a working home, which I am not. The other options I found were BYBs which I was also wary of, especially since my previous dog had a number of health issues. And I didn't want to rescue a dog, I wanted to start fresh with a pup, to train and mold to my lifestyle.

 

So, in my search someone steered me to someone who had <GASP!> a litter of AKC pups from show lines. I looked at them, was impressed by the work the breeder put into them as far as socialization and health testing. Also, they seemed very intelligent despite what you claim about dogs coming from showlines so I got one and he's perfect for me. He acts and looks VERY much like my first border collies, is very athletic, intelligent and nice looking to boot.

 

I understand where you are coming from in regards to show dogs, how a breed can indeed be ruined by the show ring. And I've read "Dog Wars", but from what I've seen so far with these BCs, at least with the lines my present BC came from, I don't see that. Many breeders of AKC BCs do seem intent on keeping the breed intelligent, capable and that word that many here seem to despise, VERSATILE!

 

I'm sure I'll REALLY get slammed for mentioning this...you would claim he wouldn't be able to herd, but you don't know that. He does outruns and the creeping stances and gives his toy's 'the eye', so it's possible he could, but in all likelihood, he won't have the opportunity because I didn't get him to be a herding dog. Which by that statement, I'm sure a lot of you will say then what do I have a BC for? Somehow that makes me 'unworthy' of owning one apparently.

 

No doubt I will be raked over the coals thoroughly for writing this, but so be it. I was enjoying looking at the pictures and comments on the Border collie structure group of all the types of BCs, and let's face it, no matter what you claim is THE Border Collie there will always be different types besides the coyote collies and that won't be changed. From what I've read here, you're doing little to help your cause in promoting the working BC, especially for people such as myself who don't have sheep or run stock and just want a BC as a (horrors!) pet.

 

Further, I've seen people disparaged for being 'trolls' here and yet, you go and do the same thing elsewhere. If you don't like or agree with that group, then why not just live and let live and not go there just to stir up trouble, because despite what you may feel is 'educating' is frankly, far from.

 

So, go ahead flame away and tear my post apart with all your 'rationale' and continue to preach to the choir & pat yourselves on the back for all your wisdom and my ignorance. No doubt you will. In the meantime, I'll continue to enjoy my dog and people that are more open minded, tactful and without an agenda.

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