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Time for a new Pam thread


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I am very very happy to let everyone know that Pam will be down in the "Land of Enchantment" or "State on Fire" in 2 weeks :lol:

As many of you know, everytime Pam leaves Kansas a major weather event happens :rolleyes:

She will be just in time to really really help me with my little Elsie, since we are in direct competition with not only Liz and Debbie from this very board, but also from Elsie's "evil" B) sister "Gruntz - aka Meg" who lives in Santa Fe with Mary Starr, who just happens to give lessons at me place. "Gruntz Aka Meg" was under house arrest :blink: 2 weeks ago because her mother droped the longline due to the lack of better judgement hence giving "Gruntz AKA Meg" her first ride hanging of a woollie :o:rolleyes::o:rolleyes:

Sooooo, I am thinking maybe there is hope for me and sweet Elsie yet :lol:

 

In any case Pam, I am very excited to see you in 2 weeks, I even bit the bullet and bought a HUGE portable Swamp Cooler to keep you in the humid air you are used to in Kansas LOLOLOLOLOL

 

But all kidding aside, I am very happy that you are coming down! Eat your heart out people, we will have a fun time in Albuquerque

 

(Pam always gives lessons, just to make her day and torture us and then she makes us go out one night and eat Sushi at an "All you can eat Sushi" place. Now, mind you we are in the desert here)

 

Anyone what to joins us?

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Can you get Pam to leave sooner...we are in need of a major weather event...this rut we are in right now sucks...107 right now factoring in humidity...walk outside and your glasses steam up. It's cooler in Florida and Southern Texas.

 

Now..as for the competition...photographic evidence of the puppy mutten busten please.

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Hi Debbie :lol:

 

Hey its 98 down here, but its only 8% humitity. We need rain soooooooo bad, we are in a 100 year draught. So I am hoping that as soon as Pam is down here and we want to work dogs it wil start raining Cats and Dogs :blink:

 

As far as the Rodeo, I had to practically force it out of Mary. "Gruntz AKA Meg" is a little spitfire and she looks like a Berner or an ACD instead of a BC. I will have to take pics to post, but not until after October 1 and 2 because Mary Starr and her hubby are judging the JHD we are holding at me place, Would not want to upset the Judges :rolleyes::P:rolleyes:

 

How are this with you? Why don't you come down here and "Cool" off B)

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These threads are so weird...

 

 

A little explaining:

 

I am your neighbor down in New Mexico. A mutual friend of ours passed from breast cancer 3 years ago to this very day. Pam and I reconnected last year at a trial she was judging down here. I was lucky enough to talk her into becoming the mentor and teacher for our little herding group down here. The first time she came to NM was in Feb during the big freeze (-30 windchill), the second time was last May(when the flodding in the midwest started) and now its the heat:)

 

She is also "Grandma" to my puppy Elsie and Mary's "Gruntz AKA Mge".

Debbie, Liz and I decided to see who could be the first on in the trial arena, just a fun competition.

 

So yes, I guess this is strange, but it is also fun ;)

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Doing ok..working dogs in the mornings but only as needed, yesterday we had to shut it down before 9:30 am, just not fair to the livestock.

 

I have two dogs here for training that need to get worked and then Patty, everyone else is on siesta until the heat breaks. I was thinking of entering Patty in P/N this coming weekend at one of our clubs arena trials but I might skip it, just not able to get her the seasoning that I had hoped to get her prior to the trial.

 

Wayne's in Colorado right now with Jake, Ricky and a pup (Flash). He was able to work the dogs at a dog client's place, they have a ranch near Burlington, CO on Saturday and Sunday. The pup they bought is 2 now, Jax, they love him, Wayne says he is doing a nice job for them.

 

Today he is visiting with John & Ed Duvall, old friend of his from college, wouldn't be surprised if they are working dogs and comparing dog breeding/selection notes.

 

Thursday and Friday he has cattledog trials in Nebraska before heading home. Hopefully coming home will be less eventful then getting out there, he broke down in Jennings, Kansas on Saturday afternoon, luckily they are in the middle of wheat harvest and he was able to get help and back on the road. Travelling in this heat with dogs scares me.

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Doing ok..working dogs in the mornings but only as needed, yesterday we had to shut it down before 9:30 am, just not fair to the livestock.

 

I have two dogs here for training that need to get worked and then Patty, everyone else is on siesta until the heat breaks. I was thinking of entering Patty in P/N this coming weekend at one of our clubs arena trials but I might skip it, just not able to get her the seasoning that I had hoped to get her prior to the trial.

 

Wayne's in Colorado right now with Jake, Ricky and a pup (Flash). He was able to work the dogs at a dog client's place, they have a ranch near Burlington, CO on Saturday and Sunday. The pup they bought is 2 now, Jax, they love him, Wayne says he is doing a nice job for them.

 

Today he is visiting with John & Ed Duvall, old friend of his from college, wouldn't be surprised if they are working dogs and comparing dog breeding/selection notes.

 

Thursday and Friday he has cattledog trials in Nebraska before heading home. Hopefully coming home will be less eventful then getting out there, he broke down in Jennings, Kansas on Saturday afternoon, luckily they are in the middle of wheat harvest and he was able to get help and back on the road. Travelling in this heat with dogs scares me.

 

 

ou know, I really don't know how you guys do it, it must be brutal on you , the dogs and the stock. How do you keep the dogs from overheating? I have heard on the Tending Board that the humitity is worse on the dogs then the heat? Does it get cool at night?

 

You should haver told Hubby to swing down here since he was in CO

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It's been staying in the 80's at night, coolest in the morning as the ground has finally cooled down and there is a heavy heavy dew or even fog.

 

The dogs seem to adapt well, all of our dogs are smooth coats, we ferminate them so they are not carrying any old undercoats and we also keep their weights down. The high fat high protein diet seems to help to, it's not unusual to look out and see a couple of dogs playing out in the sun in the kennel runs rather then camping in the shade, they seem to be doing well, atleast the ones that stay outside 24/7.

 

I just shagged my recently weaned lambs out of the barn and let them loose in the yard so that they could access shade trees, their lot does not have any shade. I am worried about running into respritory issues with them wanting to lay around inside the damp barn with little air flow. Moved the calves to a new pen and pasture yesterday also, they had a nasty wet spot in the barn that they were hunkering into.

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The forecast looks better for the rest of the week, 99 plus today but only 91 tomorrow with rain possible.

 

We have a window AC unit that keeps the main part of the house at about 78.

 

I ran into one of the guys from the feedlot next door, they have lost a couple of cows right after transport, they are getting dehydrated and not recovering. I've not heard of any other losses, but that doesn't mean that there haven't been any.

 

Sharon was up this morning and we worked dogs until about 10am, not as bad as yesterday, we had more breeze this morning, but it's getting hot now.

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For all of the people that are able to communicate with the warm fuzzies dripping with political correctness, can you please post something on this thread for me? I don't want to seem confrontational or anything, but I seem to have a knack for being ... well ... not so fuzzy ... and I know people here don't like that. So maybe someone can ask what is being taught in the two training videos that occurred at the last clinic Pam held. Don't these methods sort of remind you of the mass producer in Washington and her 8 week old puppies on a long line?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3Kp33dSfZE

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKIFD8Cx2WU&NR=1

 

And the other question I have but can't seem to figure out how to fuzzy it up is ... why is this trainer being put on a pedestal as a trainer when she is a supporter (judging as well as running dogs) of the AKC - an organization that is clearly contradictory to the general philosophy of these boards? So how should I ask it? Or can someone ask it for me?

 

Thanks!

Jodi

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Not a comment on the method per se, but more a comment on the dog in the first vid. I see a dog who is uncomfortable with the pressure of the stock--every time the dog hits the edge of the bubble, the dog slides off the pressure and then the guy lays it down. You can see when the sheep accidentally get too close when the dog is in its "down stay" it does this weird little spin around the guy--turns away from the stock and looks like it's trying to get out of there, but the leash keeps it there. It is also being taught to lie down right there at the edge of the bubble, so, unfortunately, I don't see how it will ever get a feel for its stock or learn to walk into the pressure. But then again, since it will probably only ever work "trained" stock at ACK trials and such, it may not ever NEED to really walk into the pressure, as those sheep tend to see any dog and flee,

 

I had a comment on the second one, but I have already forgotten it,

A

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Thank you all for your very kind comments and remarks to this novice person who has begged and pleaded the last 3 years for someone to come to New Mexico and help us! We are not as lucky as some of you who live on a 30 acre farms with 50 sheep and all the "Big Hats" just 1 hour away and a trial or two every month! Pam, I am very sorry you got dragged into this, we all can't wait to see you in a couple of weeks!

 

Jodi, since you went through considereable trouble to find the u-tube clips I want to personally thank you for posting them, (and here I thought you would be out working your dogs the proper way)since I have not been able to find them.

 

But please, don't worry, we will not pollute your trials for a long time since we are only getting started working dogs!

 

So much for helping out Novice people - what a disappointment!!!!!!!

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It looks like these dogs will soon be able to walk any field with sheep in them and completely ignore them. The dogs are so confused as to what is being asked of them. Their instincts are being shut down constantly. How will they ever bring out the dogs natural instincts with stock if they are constantly pulled back. It seems to me that the trainer, which I don't know, doesn't give a hoot as to whether these dogs will ever be useful on a ranch or able to run a trial. Let's just go play sheep herding, so you can tell all your friends your border collie is a real stock dog! B)

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Claudia, I must take exception to what you wrote. The trainer I used with Jackson was over an hour drive away. But her daddy is a well known handler, at least in these parts, and she is very good. I don't go to her any more because she has been seduced by the money she can get from ACK. And there are not any other trainers close by. Any way, Jackson did NOT have years of training, all said, probly about 40 hrs worth. He was never professionally trained to work chickens, we did that together. I have as much training as he does. But, right now, I could use him to help in a pinch on a ranch. He knows the difference between working baby chicks in a close invironment compared to the wild things that free range. Why? Because he was left with his natural instincts and abilities. Say what you will, but all the training in the world will not make a good worker if you "train" the instinct out of them. Sometimes no training is better than bad training. But of course this is JMHO, from someone who ain't even got a little hat!

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I think it is always tricky to handle a situation in which novice handlers need help but don't know the help they need (the very definition of a novice, of course). You can't know what you don't know and you try and do the best you can. Everyone who starts with stockwork starts exactly there. It's what makes it so difficult and doubly so when the nasty politics of the Border Collie Wars is involved.

 

Maybe one way to ask Jodi's question is how can we discuss methods in the absence of full observation.

 

One mechanism might be for Pam to come and discuss what she is doing in these videos or what her general aims are with these specific dogs--or for those of you who are being trained with this method to provide the context for what's happening and how you understand what you and your dogs are learning.

 

What it looks like from just what is shown in the video is what Linda and Anna said--that neither the dog nor the handler is really being allowed to feel or read or react to the sheep. Is that the case?

 

If it is the case, is that mitigated by the fact that it's difficult to find trainers in New Mexico or that we "know" who the trainer in the video is?

 

ETA: I don't think this is in any way about "polluting trials." Where did that come from?

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We had a long discussion about this training method a couple of years ago. I did not go back and read this long thread before posting the link here, but IIRC both pro and con arguments may have been presented, along with the usual side discussions. At any rate, I think it would give newer members who don't remember the discussion a place to start. Just ignore the acrimony....

 

J.

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Most folks here believe AKC herding is antithetical to promoting actual working dogs. AKC's program features courses that are much easier than the ISDS-style courses sanctioned by the USBCHA (that have long been used as a way to evaluate the work of border collies who are candidates to pass their talent along to the next generation of top-quality working dogs), and training dogs to get around these AKC courses often actually inhibits the natural instincts of talented border collies.

 

If it is difficult for you to find trainers in your area, Claudia, perhaps you might consider traveling to clinics. Most of us actually don't have Big Hats living an hour away--I travel 14 hours one way to see the Big Hat I've trained with; I regularly travel 8-15 hours (one way) to attend clinics given by others. This is a very difficult thing to learn--I've been at it for a little while now, and I have certainly struggled. But I've found that there is no real way for me to shortcut the process of truly understanding how to work livestock with a dog. Just miles and a willingness to do what I have to do to keep learning from the best.

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I'd like to see a video of what the dogs were like prior to Pam's first visit and then again after the 5-10th lesson before passing judgement as to whether or not the approach is working both for the dogs and the students. There still is the issue of how much the students want to grasp a different way of thinking and if the dog has the talant, drive and ability to be useful under the working conditions presented.

 

I've visited with Pam in person many times over the last year, most recently when she spent four long days volunteering as a scribe at the National Cattledog Finals.

 

We have talked about selection, breeding, instinct, traits, training and I have heard no evidence that she subscribes to the AKC philosiphies.

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In watching both vids I never saw the dogs allowed to even attempt to control the stock. I saw them corrected for "trying" though. In one of them the dog appears to be corrected when trying to cover though its hard to say. From the looks of it he was not affecting the stock at all. Also, he had stock about in his face due to the handler, again he tries to cover only to be corrected. Since you say this is a nov dog handler team then why all the correction instead of allowing the dog to work and feel out the situation?

 

There have been lots of excellent videos on the boards (Denise Walls May?) and others. Nothing in these two is remotely similar. It is imo ACK training. Is it acceptable because the handlers don't know any better?

 

If you have a group then why not bring in a "big hat" instead of complaining about your area being void of them. Travel to other areas with clinics ? Not everyone is fortunate but if you really want it you find a way to make it work, and make it work for the dog as well.

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We have talked about selection, breeding, instinct, traits, training and I have heard no evidence that she subscribes to the AKC philosiphies.

 

Here Debbie

 

http://www.akc.org/events/herding/herdsman/ssc_of_memphis_herding.cfm

 

http://www.akc.org/judges_directory/index.cfm?action=results

 

Subscribing, participation, judging - to me that is endorsing.

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