Root Beer Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 So Kristine, if I go find info (such as JP posted) that provides nothing more than speculation and based on observations, you'll reply that *that's not what I'm referring too*. If you go find the most current info and that is your response, that really is between you and those who are doing the work. Why not take it up with them? That strikes me as the reasonable thing to do if you have concerns. You continue to demand answers of someone who is not affiliated with the studies in any way. I can give you no more information than what has been made public. Access the information for yourself, or don't. I am not going to do that for you. You made a statement, a very broad one, and now instead of answering questions related to it you're sending people on a snipe hunt. Unless you can provide documentation to validate your statement I'm inclined to think it's just more hot air. Why can't (or won't) you back up your claim, here in writing, unless it's not possible. Because the work is not mine, nor am I an official representative of those who are doing the work. If the article were available, for free, online, I would happily provide the link. But it has just recently been published, and it not yet available online. Therefore, if you would like more information, it is up to you to go get it. If you choose not to, and would rather just dismiss the whole thing as "hot air", that's your choice. Honestly, if your opinion, based not on examination of the information that has been made public, but on the fact that you are unwilling to seek it out is that it is "hot air", that is no more to me than my position on the work being done is to you. Get the info, ask your questions of those who are actually doing the work in question, or continue to guess. Or don't. It is not my responsibility to do your research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 From your assertions, I thought that you had an "in" with the research group. Had you asked the question much earlier instead of making that presumption, I could have cleared that up for you. Is it clear now? I'll spell it out, just in case. My position on this issue is based solely on information that has been made public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Article written 12/11, not 12/01 Thanks! I fixed it in my post. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdawgs Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Had you asked the question much earlier instead of making that presumption, I could have cleared that up for you. Is it clear now? oh yes, things are very clear to me. And to others as well, I think. I'll spell it out, just in case. And let me spell something out as well. Speaking as a scientist, that is. What has been described in Clean Run in no way constitutes "formal" research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Because the work is not mine, nor am I an official representative of those who are doing the work. Therefore, if you would like more information, it is up to you to go get it. So let me understand this. You make a statement "things have been learned". You can provide no basis for this, you then say look it up yourself, then you say it's not available online and oh, you're not involved with it. Why did you originally say "things have been learned" if you can't provide what *things* are? I think all your comments related to this supposed syndrome are tainted and you simply say whatever to disagree with whomever. Please do not respond to this question/comment unless you can actually point out *what* has been learned. Your circle game is publicly displayed. JQ Public may get the wrong impression reading this thread, if you can't validate your claim maybe you should edit (delete) it as right now it appears to be false. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Hum....don't know why I'm posting this...probably because Pete is picking up lamb and isn't home yet. And nobody wants to listen to me talk about horses. We had an old saying in three day. 'Every jump you take- thats one less jump the horse has in him.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 So let me understand this. You make a statement "things have been learned". You can provide no basis for this, I can, but I choose not to. You are perfectly capable of getting the information for yourself. Do so or not as you choose. Why did you originally say "things have been learned" Because I have read the article in the magazine that I purchased. If you would like the information in that article, you will need to purchase it for yourself, or wait until it is available online. if you can't provide what *things* are? I can, but I choose not to. Get the information for yourself. You are capable of it. You can keep asking me to provide it to you over and over, but my answer will remain the same. If you want to know, you will have to get the information for yourself. I think all your comments related to this supposed syndrome are tainted and you simply say whatever to disagree with whomever. Tainted. Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine. My position has remained the same, and the main disagreement that I have had was not over information contained in the article. My position is, and has ever been, that the work being done to study this issue (and if you choose not to believe that real information can only be gained from one type of study, that is your affair, not mine) has the potential to be beneficial to dog and handler teams that struggle with this issue, or will do so in the future. It is straightforward. It is simple. It is based on information that has been made public. I have read the information available, considered it, formed a position based on it. If you have a problem with that, there really isn't much I can do about it. I am not going to lie to placate you, or anyone. And I am not going to take it upon myself to distribute information online for free that is not yet available in a free online format. The information is available for purchase. Do so if you wish. Or don't. It's really up to you. Please do not respond to this question/comment unless you can actually point out *what* has been learned. Your circle game is publicly displayed. I would say the same to you. You demand the same information over and over, refusing to take an answer at face value and then attempt to throw it back on me. JQ Public may get the wrong impression reading this thread, if you can't validate your claim maybe you should edit (delete) it as right now it appears to be false. JQ Public is as capable as you are of following the links, and getting the information. If anyone doubts that study is being done, and there is updated information, he or she is more than welcome to seek the information from the only source that can be validated - the actual, original source. That you are unwilling to do so is your responsibility, not mine. My position remains the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Ok somebody else post a witty old saying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdawgs Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 We had an old saying in three day. 'Every jump you take- thats one less jump the horse has in him.' And then there is the ticket book. Every horse (dog) is born with a ticket book. One ticket must be removed for every jump. When the book is empty, the horse (dog) is done. I HATE watching people drill their agility dogs over jumps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 I HATE watching people drill their agility dogs over jumps. Pigs are flying high!!! We agree!!!!! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdawgs Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Ok somebody else post a witty old saying If you can't dazzle them with science, baffle them with bullshyt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 My Coach used to say this when asked if that was a good spot over a fence. 'If you made it, it was a good spot.....if you didn't it was a bad one.' One of my other coaches used to say "It is braver to fall than to stop." (This was a chew glass and die kinda coach.) So ends my witty sayings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 I've always wondered how dogs can get so screwed up, mentally. Now I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 It seems to me that if a person has a point to make and knows that the information they are privy to is not available to everyone else generally then there is nothing wrong with providing your own synopsis of it. Otherwise, why bring it up? It would certainly promote discussion. But apparently the goal is not to promote discussion I guess. For example, when Mark B. has contacted Mark N. for information on EOD, he doesn't make claims about that research and then tell us to go call Dr. Neff ourselves; he shares what he's learned in his discussion with Dr. Neff. That's pretty much the normal way research is shared. No, Mark B. doesn't give us every little detail, but if he says "Dr. Neff's group has made progress," he doesn't leave us hanging or go tell us to find it out for ourselves; he shares, at least in summary form, the information he's gained. Why is that such a difficult concept? Otherwise, what's the point in bringing up that information at all? It reminds me of my sister when she used to say "I just found out something." We'd say, "What?" and she'd say, "I can't tell you." Yep, that's real helpful. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 First, Julie, I want to say that I appreciate the objective tone of your post. You and I have exchanged our share of sarcasm over the years, but I say that seriously. I appreciate that you did not demand the information and you gave me a fair chance to clarify several things. It seems to me that if a person has a point to make and knows that the information they are privy to is not available to everyone else generally then there is nothing wrong with providing your own synopsis of it. Otherwise, why bring it up? It would certainly promote discussion. But apparently the goal is not to promote discussion I guess. I certainly had no ulterior motives in bringing it up (not saying you think so!). I can honestly say that when I did mention recent information, I did not realize that the information to which I was referring was not yet available online. I actually searched for a link to share, and realized at that time that the latest update article is only available at this point by purchase. I'd love to take part in an objective discussion of the work that has actually been done. Gloria asked fantastic questions and if this discussion were being held in that vein by the majority of posters, I may have been willing to give at least a general synopsis of the recently published information. However, given the most recent tone of this discussion, and the manner in which the information has been demanded over and over, I have decided not to share the details of this article. It is publicly available. Anyone can access it through Clean Run. If someone else is interested in continuing the discussion of ETS through sharing of and discussion of that information, that can happen if someone cares to do so. For example, when Mark B. has contacted Mark N. for information on EOD, he doesn't make claims about that research and then tell us to go call Dr. Neff ourselves; Of course not, but the situations are not exactly the same. I do not know Ms. Mecklenburg personally and I did not speak to her. If I knew her, had stated that I would contact her on behalf of the board, and told her on whose behalf the questions were being asked, I would have been happy to share the information if she were willing for that to happen. Mark B. did not read a recently published article by Mark N. that was not yet available online and then turn around and share the information, online and without permission. From my point of view, there is a distinct difference between the two situations. No, Mark B. doesn't give us every little detail, but if he says "Dr. Neff's group has made progress," he doesn't leave us hanging or go tell us to find it out for ourselves; he shares, at least in summary form, the information he's gained. Why is that such a difficult concept? It is not. But again, the situations are not quite the same. Taking into account that I do not know Ms. Mecklenburg and that I do not have her permission to post the published information on this forum, all I am willing to share about the article is a very general outline. - There is updated information since the latest article that is available online - In the article Ms. Mecklenburg identifies the most widely accepted cause of early takeoffs (Please take note of the wording here - "widely accepted", not "definitively proven". No, this information is not in peer reviewed journals yet) - She identifies three broad categories that dogs with early takeoffs usually fall into and details and draws distinctions between those categories - She outlines advice to handlers of affected dogs to obtain the recommended veterinary testing - After the article proper there is a blurb about what constitutes an early takeoff There is an "Author's Note" at the end of the article that the many among you might find interesting. I will quote this one thing since formal scientific research has been such a hot button issue . . . "Scientific research by qualified individuals is needed if definitive cause and treatment is to be determined. If you would like to help facilitate such research, please contact me at awesomepaws@aol.com" Sounds like, as I have stated many times, the nature of these studies, and the status of peer reviewed journal articles should be addressed to Mecklenburg herself, or to those with whom she works on this matter. For more details, I must refer you to the article proper. I would expect that at some point it will be available online. And just a note to anyone who may challenge the veracity of the outline given above, anyone who feels the need to do so can validate my synopsis of the information published can do so through reference to October 2012 Clean Run Magazine, Pages 41 - 43. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Here's a link to a blog which has a pretty interesting take on the subject. It's about 1800 words. http://speedoggie.blogspot.com/2011/10/another-way-of-looking-at-early-take.html In the comments section the author says this: "As I mentioned in the article, if people are breeding dogs specifically to produce agility prospects, they may well choose to not breed certain animals until more is known about the nature of ETS, whether it has a genetic component, etc. Comparing ETS to hip dysplasia or cardiomyopathy, however seems a bit extreme. Those conditions affect the dog’s quality of life and longevity. ETS only affects one thing, a dog’s ability to compete in agility, and therefore really only affects the owner, not the dog. Is it heartbreaking to raise a dog in hopes that it will excel as an agility dog, and have the dog end up with ETS? It is certainly not ideal, and all things being equal, of course anyone would rather not have that happen, but it is not heartbreaking in the way that having a dog crippled by hip dysplasia or some other serious health issue is." Although I don't approve of breeding Border Collies for anything but stock-working ability I think that this says it all for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickif Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 http://www.awesomepaws.us/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/BreedingConcernsFinal.pdf Once again I will post this, for anyone who cares to read it. I just skimmed the written article but it says much of what this doc says that is from her website, missing are the diagrams of the jumping styles. On phone so did not make it a link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickif Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Well it made it a link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Hum....don't know why I'm posting this...probably because Pete is picking up lamb and isn't home yet. And nobody wants to listen to me talk about horses. I do, I do! Also this tread can use some "off topic" (why on earth was it resurrected in the first place...?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brndlbc Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 There are many people who believe in God despite the lack of physical evidence supporting his or her existence. There are those who don‘t. Believers and non believes. Thousands of years after the death of Christ, people are still looking for the physical evidence to prove that existence. Nothing verifiable has yet to be found. Science has yet to be convinced. Still others wait for the second coming…of something that hasn’t been shown was there in the first place. Non believers say "show me" while the believers continue to follow in their beliefs. So who is right? The believers who follow an entity without any physical or scientific evidence or the non believers who, because of the lack of evidence, choose not to believe? Or could it be the ones who believe in one thing on blind faith but not another due to lack of evidence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 It is good to investigate the epistemic basis for our beliefs, but given a draw, I don't think Pascal would have bothered to lay his wager on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Hum, Cool Salamander lets talk horses! BTW Some of my relatives believed a gaint Elk created the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Probably means I am going to the 'hot place' when I die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderHill Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 I dunno about the Giant Elk, but I try to keep an open mind. As has been said about the possible existence of the Universal Cosmic Engineer (possible partial paraphrase from R.A. Heinlein), "I don't care who's cranking as long as s/he doesn't stop." I'll take the heat if it's my fate but if my dogs aren't there I'll definitely be d*mned. LizS in central NY Probably means I am going to the 'hot place' when I die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Probably means I am going to the 'hot place' when I die. In Iceland they say, no matter, I´ve got friends in both places.. NB. Oh yeah, Tea, If "Salamander" is here to stay I will from now on address you as "Coffee" . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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