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Early Takeoff Syndrome?


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And what Mark cannot see is that there is more to the picture than he personally knows, and that there is potential benefit to handlers of ETS dogs if further testing and study is done and more answers are found.

 

I think Mark understands that there is potential benefit to handlers of ETS dogs if someone can figure out why these dogs don't jump optimally.

 

In fact, I believe that is his main point; that the only benefit of solving the ETS riddle is to the handlers of ETS dogs. Solving ETS will have no benefit to Border Collies as a breed.

 

No doubt that some people will continue to investigate the issue. I doubt there'll be any real science done on it because it's almost impossible to get funding to do real science on actual health issues in Border Collies. so getting money to study a performance issue in a small subset of Agility dogs will not be easy, but that may be irrelevant since this is likely a training or psychological issue and not a physiological issue, so it may not need real scientific studies, just the right trainer with the right insight.

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And what Mark cannot see is that there is more to the picture than he personally knows, and that there is potential benefit to handlers of ETS dogs if further testing and study is done and more answers are found.

 

Oh for goodness sakes, we are talking about transforming crappy jumpers into good jumpers, not a cure for cancer. How does jumping in an agility context enhance a dog's quality of life outside of agility? The only benefit is that this will allow dogs to compete that perhaps should not. If this were soley about fun and relationships and overcoming obstacles, these folks would move to an easier venue and drop the jump heights, even if it meant showing "for exhibition only". But, then there would be no que's.

 

This is about breeding a super agility dog and not being stuck with a fast dog with good "structure" and "drive" that can't jump per the STANDARDS OF COMPETITION. Period.

 

If your dog can't safely jump a tire or a triple, move to a venue that doesn't have those obstacles or go around them. Since this is only about fun and relationships and overcoming obstacles, that is.

 

 

Testing and study, I might add, that is being done, and will continue to be done, and taken seriously by those who are studying the matter, regardless of whether anyone objects to it or not.

 

Who is "testing" and "study"ing the matter and who is taking this seriously other than people with ETS and people who have a vested interest in dogs cleanly jumping at the required height? Really, if there is a test, I want to know about it because I am going to test my puppy right now, so I don't waste any time training a puppy that will grow up to have ETS <heavy sarcasm>.

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. . . this is likely a training or psychological issue and not a physiological issue

 

Hi Pearse - I'm wondering on what, exactly, you base this position?

 

What evidence have you seen, in working with these particular dogs, that has led you to consider it a training or psychological issue?

 

What physiological possibilities have you ruled out, and how?

 

Is this based on hearing about the issue second or third hand, or on work that you have actually done with these dogs?

 

And if it is based on what you have heard second or third hand, why do you consider that information more reliable than that being presented to the public by those who are actually working with the dogs (and vets, and highly experienced trainers who have worked with both horses and dogs extensively, and veterinary opthamologists, etc.)?

 

How is basing one's point of view on second or third hand accounts, along with various guesses from those who have never even seen the problem first hand, more scientific?

 

This might sound sarcastic or very blunt, but I really am trying to see the logic of it. So far I simply cannot.

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. . . who is taking this seriously other than people with ETS and people who have a vested interest in dogs cleanly jumping at the required height?

 

Who would you expect to study the matter? Those who are not affected by it? Of course those who are invested in some way are the ones studying it seriously.

 

I want to know about it because I am going to test my puppy right now, so I don't waste any time training a puppy that will grow up to have ETS <heavy sarcasm>.

 

You know, you say that sarcastically, but if such a thing were possible, wouldn't it make sense to do exactly that?

 

I know quite a lot of people who get hips checked before starting Agility. Some of those people decide not to pursue Agility, and begin, from the start, with their dog in something else, based on those tests.

 

To my way of thinking, that is a very logical thing to do.

 

Right now there is no test that will indicate the possibility of ETS when a dog is a puppy. Perhaps there could be in the future, if the problem is somehow linked to something detectable. And that may or may not be the case - I am not saying it is, but neither do I presume to say that it is not possible.

 

Scoff at it all you like, but there are those to whom simple testing when a dog is young do use the information gained to make prudent training and activity choices for their dogs - earlier rather than later.

 

Even when one is going to do something purely for fun, having such information early in the dog's life can help one make good decisions that can impact the quality of the dog's life overall. That in spite of the fact that it's not cancer.

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Who would you expect to study the matter? Those who are not affected by it? Of course those who are invested in some way are the ones studying it seriously.

 

I don't have cancer (to my knowledge), but yet studied it professionally for many years. I still work in the oncology field-despite not being personally invested in it.

 

In fact, I don't know anyone in academia who is studying a problem because they are personally affected. Things are studied because they are interesting, because there is a desire to help people (and animals) with diseases that affect life or the quality of life...and because the problem is fundable. FRankly, I don't see ETS as being fundable because it only affects dogs who are doing agility.

 

Again, I would like to know who is "seriously" studying ETS in a scientific sense? So far, I only see antedoctal reports and blogs

 

 

You know, you say that sarcastically, but if such a thing were possible, wouldn't it make sense to do exactly that?.

 

I would see such a test as being a waste of my money. And I have no intention of xraying my pups hips unless there is a medical reason to do so. The horse world has a saying: "you don't ride xrays".

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i have not read this whole, long thread, maybe i am repeating. i am an agility junkie and run 2 dogs who "love" agility, really they do, we have a lot of fun and both are fast with good obstacle skills. my aussie takes off early on many jumps (i call him superman :), i do not think he has ETS but i do believe he has a vision issue.

 

one sunday i took them to a fun match to work on a few skills. at one point i looked over at them sitting in their xpen. my thought at the moment was, "i am here for me, not them, they would rather be on their long sunday walk... romping, sniffing, rolling, chasing." i rarely go to fun matches anymore...

 

EGO:

1.the “I” or self of any person; a person as thinking, feeling, and willing, and distinguishing itself from the selves of others and from objects of its thought.

2.Psychoanalysis . the part of the psychic apparatus that experiences and reacts to the outside world and thus mediates between the primitive drives of the id and the demands of the social and physical environment.

3.egotism; conceit; self-importance: Her ego becomes more unbearable each day.

4.self-esteem or self-image; feelings: Your criticism wounded his ego.

5.( often initial capital letter ) Philosophy .

a.the enduring and conscious element that knows experience.

b.Scholasticism . the complete person comprising both body and soul.

6.Ethnology . a person who serves as the central reference point in the study of organizational and kinship relationships.

 

so, i interpret this as, everything is ego.

 

regarding LM/breeding/ETS - link to an article by her. I thought it an interesting read. And no, I do not breed, nor want to.

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Again, I would like to know who is "seriously" studying ETS in a scientific sense? So far, I only see antedoctal reports and blogs

 

It is being studied formally by Mecklenburg. I can't give you the details of the study because I am not privy to them, but she is not exactly taking a look at a couple of dogs and writing a blog about them. I am aware that she has involved several types of veterinarians in the process, and has worked hands on with many, many dogs, and with other professional trainers. While that may not be all lab coats and academia, it is formalized study through which a great deal has, in fact, been learned.

 

If you are more interested in what they are doing, I suggest you contact them.

 

I would see such a test as being a waste of my money. And I have no intention of xraying my pups hips unless there is a medical reason to do so. The horse world has a saying: "you don't ride xrays".

 

Do you really not see that others have a different perspective? Do you really think that all people see the matter exactly as you do?

 

I find that surprising, but if that really is your point of view, it explains quite a lot of what I have heard from various posters in this thread.

 

People are different. No, you don't ride x-rays. However, it is possible sometimes to be aware of potential injury, and sometimes even see that here is an issue in time do something about it when the dog is young (if it is something treatable) by taking a look through an x-ray.

 

It is not something that I have done myself (with a young dog), but I have known people personally who have done so and been glad for it.

 

Where you would consider it a waste, it has been valuable to others.

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It is being studied formally by Mecklenburg. I can't give you the details of the study because I am not privy to them, but she is not exactly taking a look at a couple of dogs and writing a blog about them. I am aware that she has involved several types of veterinarians in the process, and has worked hands on with many, many dogs, and with other professional trainers. While that may not be all lab coats and academia, it is formalized study through which a great deal has, in fact, been learned.

 

If you are more interested in what they are doing, I suggest you contact them.

 

Well, then. I eagerly await the results of this "formal" study. To be clear, by "formal", I mean a controlled scientific study that will be published in a peer-reviewed journal. A study that has withstood the scrutiny of one's peers.

 

There's that pesky defination thing again.

 

 

 

Do you really not see that others have a different perspective? Do you really think that all people see the matter exactly as you do?.

 

Of course not. I never said that I do. And if you think that ETS is important, test away, IF, a test should ever be available.

 

 

People are different

 

 

Really? Duh

 

No, you don't ride x-rays. However, it is possible sometimes to be aware of potential injury, and sometimes even see that here is an issue in time do something about it when the dog is young (if it is something treatable) by taking a look through an x-ray.

 

 

You know, hips are a funny thing. I only discovered last year that my pitbull was dysplastic. She was 10. We only took the xray because the vet needed to radiograph her lower spine, so an extra view was thrown in for free. The hip sockets were truly shockingly shallow, but interestingly the amount of arthritis was minimal, more consistant with age than dysplasia.

 

She developed back problems in 2008. At the time and periodically since, I had maybe 3 vets, including an orthopedist at the vet school really crank on her hips. She never reacted. Until she was 10.

 

If I had discovered that she was dysplastic when she was 2 years, I would have wrapped her in bubble wrap and never done anything with her. Instead, I kept her fit and active. We competed lightly in agility for many years. Ironically, her rehab vet says that keeping her fit and active prolonged her becoming symptomatic.

 

The pup will go to the rehab vet in a few weeks and an exercise program will be designed for him. The program would probably be the same whether or not he was dysplastic, so no need for xrays. Unless the vet suspects a problem.

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What's been learned?

 

I contacted her about a year ago. Nothing had been scientific about her study then nor had anything been found/learned scientifically.

 

There was an update article in a recent Clean Run. I'm sure if you are really interested, you could find someone with a copy.

 

There are articles on her website, as well.

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There was an update article in a recent Clean Run. I'm sure if you are really interested, you could find someone with a copy.

 

There are articles on her website, as well.

 

There's nothing new, nothing recent and nothing scientific or peer reviewed. You said things had been learned. What.

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You know, hips are a funny thing. I only discovered last year that my pitbull was dysplastic. She was 10. We only took the xray because the vet needed to radiograph her lower spine, so an extra view was thrown in for free. The hip sockets were truly shockingly shallow, but interestingly the amount of arthritis was minimal, more consistant with age than dysplasia.

 

She developed back problems in 2008. At the time and periodically since, I had maybe 3 vets, including an orthopedist at the vet school really crank on her hips. She never reacted. Until she was 10.

 

If I had discovered that she was dysplastic when she was 2 years, I would have wrapped her in bubble wrap and never done anything with her.

 

If that was your choice - I agree, it would not have been the best one for her.

 

But wrapping a dog in bubble wrap (figuratively) is not the only choice one has if the dog is diagnosed with something very young.

 

In contrast, I found out that Speedy had quite a bit of arthritis very young. There were things that I did refrain from doing with him because those things aggravated the condition (such as, of all things, Agility style jumping), but I went out of my way to keep him active, especially in Freestyle, which is particularly good for keeping many dogs with joint issues mobile.

 

I credit the fact that I kept him active with the fact that he is still dancing today (along with Adequan, which he began to get somewhat early on, and pain meds to take the edge off).

 

I am glad I had a relatively early diagnosis because I could think out my training choices for him, and balance avoidance of things that would aggravate his condition (although I have not always been perfect in that regard) with keeping him active, fit, and mobile.

 

At 11 he moves better than he did when he was 5. He runs every day of his life. He swims as often as I can get him to water. He dances. He plays ball. He hikes. No bubble wrap here, although I do think about his activities and refrain from those that would hinder rather than help him.

 

I maintain - knowledge is a very good thing to have.

 

I kept her fit and active. We competed lightly in agility for many years. Ironically, her rehab vet says that keeping her fit and active prolonged her becoming symptomatic.

 

Why is that ironic? That is what one is supposed to do. Every vet I have ever discussed joint issues with has advised keeping the dog as active as possible.

 

In addition, the canine chiropractor that I use advises the same thing.

 

I have never heard any canine health care professional advise keeping a dog with arthritis or dysplasia from being active.

 

The pup will go to the rehab vet in a few weeks and an exercise program will be designed for him. The program would probably be the same whether or not he was dysplastic, so no need for xrays. Unless the vet suspects a problem.

 

On the other hand, I found having a definitive diagnosis, via x-rays, very helpful. Knowing exactly what his problem was alleviated worries that I had that some other problem might be at the root of his stiffness/lameness. It also let me know that it was safe for him to be active.

 

Knowing helped me make appropriate choices for him. I simply cannot see where not knowing would have been of any benefit to him whatsoever.

 

In fact, I can't think of a single time when not knowing some issue that was going on with one of my dogs would have been better than knowing.

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You said things had been learned. What.

 

Since you can't find the info for yourself, I suggest trying the Clean Run list. Anyone can join. I am sure you would find people there who would be more than happy to help you - possibly even people who are taking part in the work that is happening with their own dogs. Mecklenburg posts there, as well, so you might be able to make contact that way.

 

You could ask there, also, about any possible plans for peer reviewed literature.

 

It's always better to go to the source than to get information second hand. Right now that is: the trainers who are working with these dog and handler teams, the vets who are working with these dog and handler teams, and the handlers who are working with the dogs. They are the best resource you are going to find for any info there is to be had.

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No, I'm sorry Kristine. You specifically said "things have been learned" please identify what. I've no inclination to go and try to find what your speaking of since I can't possibly know as I'm not a mind reader. Please list *what* has been learned as you originally alluded to earlier.

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Kristine,

 

Specifically what is the source of your information regarding the ongoing "formal" studies? Have there been private communications between you and the involved veterinarians and/or research personel? I am not asking you to post the contents of personal email(s)--a simple yes or no, or a link/citation to a publically available source would suffice.

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No, I'm sorry Kristine. You specifically said "things have been learned" please identify what. I've no inclination to go and try to find what your speaking of since I can't possibly know as I'm not a mind reader. Please list *what* has been learned as you originally alluded to earlier.

 

No, I'm sorry. You can go to the source yourself. I am not interested in passing along information second hand that you can get for yourself from those who are actually engaged in the work being done.

 

I don't expect you to be a mind reader. I expect you (or anyone who is interested in learning more facts about this) to go get the information for yourself.

 

You can get the information for yourself. You can make your own list.

 

Or, you can just presume that there there is no new information to be had because I am not going to go get it and spoon feed it to you. That's up to you.

 

I am simply not doing your research.

 

ETA: Here, I went and got you the link to the Clean Run group. If these folks can't help, I am very sure that someone there will point you in the right direction.

 

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CleanRun/

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Kristine,

 

Specifically what is the source of your information regarding the ongoing "formal" studies? Have there been private communications between you and the involved veterinarians and/or research personel? I am not asking you to post the contents of personal email(s)--a simple yes or no, or a link/citation to a publically available source would suffice.

 

I only know that information that has been made known to the public, which isn't exactly hidden. I don't know the people who are doing this work personally, so I cannot provide you with any info that has not been made public. I don't have any.

 

I posted the link to the Clean Run list in my last post. That is the best place I know of to network with people who can probably get you to the kind of contacts that you are looking for.

 

As I told Journey, you can go get the information for yourself.

 

If you truly believe that study of ETS is not being done, I suggest you go directly to those who are making the fact that they are doing such work public and ask your questions of them directly.

 

I suggest you join the Clean Run list, post a description of the information that you are looking for, and see if anyone there can get you in touch with a first hand source.

 

Beyond that, I have nothing to give you. You are capable of getting a copy of the recent update in Clean Run for yourself. Find someone in your area that has it or purchase a digital back issue from the publisher. I believe the most recent update was in the September 2012 issue.

 

ETA: My bad - it was October 2012

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FWIW, Karen, in the article Mickif linked to, which was published in Dec 2011 [edited after my typo was pointed out!] (I don't know if there's a more recent article and am not going to spend the time searching), Mecklenberg repeats over and over that the things she's talking about are her personal observations and not scientific. Here are some relevant quotes from the article, which is about ETS and breeding, hence all the talk of breeding. But it is eye-opening in the sense that she is advocating not breeding dogs who exhibit this problem. She also notes that people who still breed dogs for their intended purpose (that purpose which does not involve jumping) wouldn't be aware of, or concerned with, the problem.

 

At the very least it would seem that Mecklenberg is advocating breeding specific lines of sport dogs for whom ETS and perhaps temperament/self-control issues would be of major importance.

 

I believe early takeoffs are caused by a vision problem...

 

However, as time went on I worked with so many dogs with this problem, I started to make observations that could not be the result of training or physical pain. I suspected that vision was the cause, regardless of what the veterinarians said. A veterinarian myself, I knew that vision testing in dogs was not quite as sophisticated as it was in humans.

 

Note that what she's saying above is that other vets did not agree with her. She claims this is because the vision testing capability isn't up to human standards, so it can't be proved to at least some veterinarians' satisfaction that it *is* a vision problem.

 

The incidence of early takeoffs in jumping appears to be increasing (note this is purely my personal observation)[her amphasis].

 

My answer to this would be that scientifically one would say that once you become aware of something, you notice it more often. That is, she's introducing her own bias into her observations.

 

Today, most breeds in agility are still bred for a purpose other than agility, which creates a problem if that other purpose does not involve jumping. ... A breeder that focuses on producing top herding dogs is understandably not going to be concerned about jumping ability.

 

Hmmmmm...I take this to mean that if you want to sell to the sporting folks, you need to not concern yourself with breeding for any purpose other than the sport in question. Otherwise, you may inadvertently be using dogs who would produce ETS in their offspring.

 

Based on my own personal, unscientific evaluation of the data available to me, [her emphasis]I believe breeding an affected individual is inadvisable, as is breeding an individual that has produced it in more than one litter, particularly when bred to a different individual each time.

 

Based on my own personal observation, [her emphasis] it appears that dogs affected with “classic ETS”, those for which all tests are normal, are the ones that seem to be more at risk for genetic transmission.

 

There have been arguments that more research is necessary as to the cause of early takeoffs before changes in breeding programs are considered. I fully agree that more research is needed, and that is exactly why I have taken the time to write these articles. But if one identifies a dog that has early takeoffs that cannot be resolved, is it appropriate to potentially produce more of these dogs, no matter what the cause?

 

So she's disagreeing with the folks who say research is needed to prove the problem really exists and instead saying dogs who exhibit those jumping problems should not be bred from now.

 

Some individuals feel that early takeoffs may be caused by behavioral problems such as lack of impulse control. There is no doubt that the temperament and behavior of the dog can exacerbate

early takeoffs. But this raises the question as to whether it is appropriate to breed dogs with temperament and behavior problems for performance?

 

Here she admits that lack of impulse control (overexcitability) could play a role. The same thing a number of us have said just on observation and with no direct experience. Those dogs shouldn't be bred either, though I know that at least some of my agility friends actually encourage excitability because they think it makes for a better sporting dog.

 

In this article I have tried to present the facts as I know them and where statements are my personal opinion, I have tried to make that clear. This is not a scientific journal article, I am simply trying to share my observations, raise awareness and let people know why I feel there is a cause for concern. Until we learn the actual cause of ETS, the only way to deal with it is prevention. Hopefully more breeders will realize that until the veterinarians 1) recognize that the problem exists, 2) determine

the cause, 3) determine a diagnostic test, and 4) devise an effective treatment; it may be they that are ultimately responsible for what happens with ETS because prevention is the only real option I know of at this point in time.

 

Note that again she says other vets have not recognized that a problem exists and that a cause has not actually been determined, which is why she's advocating not breeding from affected dogs because prevention is the only option right now. It would be interesting to see if breeders strictly followed her advice what sort of transformation would occur in the sport border collies (she's largely talking about border collies in this article, though she mentions that the problem is also evident in shelties, hence the comments about breeding for herding). Would times slow a bit. Would some other issue crop up?

 

Of course the problem is that probably not all breeders will follow her advice, so there won't be any real trends that will become evident either way.

 

J.

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You can go to the source yourself. I am not interested in passing along information second hand that you can get for yourself from those who are actually engaged in the work being done.

 

From my perspective, you don't seem to have a problem speaking about how much research has been done to date (even though it is not your research), stating things such as (and these are generalizations; I am not going to sift through 45 pages of posts to find exact quotes, although there are probably several posts from you on each page)... "Many dogs have been studied," "several vets are involved with the study," "training has been ruled out," "physical reasons have been ruled out." Etc...

 

Yet when you are asked for specific information in support of your own statements (ie, "What information has been learned?" among other questions put to you in the last few pages), your out is always "Look it up yourself." or "Ask Linda Mecklenburg directly." You appear--from my perspective--to be rather inconsistent as to whether you have answers or not. How is it that you can make so many claims about the thoroughness, usefulness, accuracy of, and scientific basis of the study, (etc.) and so on...until people ask for facts? Please provide the answers people have asked for. I don't think they are out of line asking you for that information, since you've provided so much information on this syndrome already; why are you holding back now? I'd think you'd be enthused about sharing what's been learned, since--from my perspective--you seem (but maybe you're not) quite intent on proving the usefulness and validity of such a study and the possible development of a genetic test, if ETS appears to be genetic.

 

This is my opinion and perhaps no one else agrees with me, but I'm going to stick to it because I believe it, so it's true (for me). And please don't question my motive for posting, because my motives are my own and no else will understand and perhaps I don't care to share them.

 

But I really do want to know the answers.

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So Kristine, if I go find info (such as JP posted) that provides nothing more than speculation and based on observations, you'll reply that *that's not what I'm referring too*. You made a statement, a very broad one, and now instead of answering questions related to it you're sending people on a snipe hunt. Unless you can provide documentation to validate your statement I'm inclined to think it's just more hot air. Why can't (or won't) you back up your claim, here in writing, unless it's not possible.

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Thank you, Julie, for sharing that information.

 

After all, that's why most of us are here...

 

post-10533-011910700 1350951408_thumb.jpg

 

This info suggests that there may be more than one reason for "ETS". Which was one of my first thoughts on observing various videos of the phenomenon.

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Yet when you are asked for specific information in support of your own statements

 

I have given you all the relevant information you need.

 

Latest Update - Clean Run Magazine - October 2012

 

Get it. Read it.

 

your out is always "Look it up yourself."

 

Yes, my "out" is - go to the source and get the information you are seeking.

 

Funny how nobody is willing to do that.

 

Your out seems to be to demand that I find the answers to your questions, and if I won't do that, you will continue to demand it. That is not "you" only, but all who refuse to take "go to the source" as an answer.

 

There comes a point where second hand reports no longer suffice. Go to the source. Get the answers to the questions you are asking.

 

--you seem (but maybe you're not) quite intent on proving the usefulness and validity of such a study and the possible development of a genetic test, if ETS appears to be genetic.

 

I am not intent on proving anything. This area is not a particular passion of mine.

 

My point has always been that there is that there is potential that information gathered through study of this issue will be beneficial to dog and handler teams who currently struggle with the issue, or will do so in the future.

 

I am all for the work that is being done. I am not affiliated with that work, nor do I represent those who are doing that work.

 

If you are interested in learning about the most recent developments in the work that is being done, or in finding out what, if any, formal scientific studies might be in the works, you have to go to the source.

 

But I really do want to know the answers.

 

Then go to the source.

 

I have made up my mind. If you want it, you can go find it yourself. I have made those resources available to you. If you want to know more, the ball is in your court to go get more.

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Beyond that, I have nothing to give you. You are capable of getting a copy of the recent update in Clean Run for yourself.

 

That's it in a nutshell, isn't it? That YOU have nothing to give me (us) despite claiming that "formal" studies are being done. I already subscribe to Clean Run and I am a member of the Yahoo group, thank you very much. I suppose if I were motivated, I could dig up the earlier Clean Run and compare the 2 articles to determine, if in fact, anything new and exciting has been learned. Instead, I think that the time may be better used playing with my puppy. My bad for the misunderstanding. From your assertions, I thought that you had an "in" with the research group.

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