Early Takeoff Syndrome?

[juliepoudrier]

Must satisfy that ego that keeps you posting quite nicely.

Yep, it's the same for ALL of us, you included.

 

J.

[Tea]

As a point of comparison, do these particular horses start off jumping well, do so for a time - several years even, and then develop the jumping problems later on in life?

 

Sometimes you can see it from the first especially if you are very experienced. However it becomes clearer as the fences become more difficult. Or as you begin to have physical problems and go to a good trainer who says...well the horse is doing such and so to compensate for what have you in its conformation.

 

 

It seems to me that if structure is the issue, then jumping would be an issue all along.

 

Perhaps- but the young person in her mid twenties who is a pro that was jumping with me today could not see it till I changed it with the grid work and then she said... aha! However it would have been a terrible surprise if she was allowed to move up the levels with a horse that could get her hurt and hurt the horse. Better not to jump that kind of horse that has such a problem it cannot be simply fixed.

 

Why, with horses, would such a structure allow for the horse to jump well for several years, and then become an early take off problem later on?

 

Because the difference in novice horse trials and advanced three day are so huge. In fact in the sport of three day you must win the right to compete in the highest levels by a point system. This was for safety of horse and rider. But also there is this...the type of course...the line to the fence changes the spot- where the horse takes off. The speed and the degree of engament changes the bascule. A dog jumps pretty flat compared to a horse because its neck is short....but its back seems more flexible.

 

If you were riding a dog that was a poor jumper and you were risking your neck you might think twice.

 

Also a horse whose back hurts will jump flat and fast sometimes the spot will be early. This is to reduce bascule which the horse finds painful if it has an injury in its back.

 

 

I have not seen this dog jumping thing very much but in horses we train to get the back and hindquarters very very strong using the principles of dressage. This helps the horse use its muscles correctly when jumping. (Although the three day horse must gallop flat out then be brought back to jump then gallop again.) Also because we are riding the horse we can set up the line and speed and degree of engagement within a hairs fraction...I do not know if you can do this with the dogs?

 

The horses used in three day followed a particular type of horse. They all were very similar. You guys I believe are working with many types of dogs.

 

I do not think your dog early take off is genetic.

 

 

I am definitely very interested to know how this would work.

[Root Beer]

Not Tea, but I'll take a stab at this.

 

Thanks, but I am interested in hearing about this from Tea, and about what Tea learned about those particular horses.

 

Had they been proficient jumpers for years before developing those particular problems?

 

As I am sure we can all atest to, as we mature and then age, body balance changes. Fat and muscle are redistributed. Scar tissue forms. Reflexes slow, anxiety may creep in, and courage may be lost. And yes, vision changes.

 

Yes, those changes do happen.

 

However, Tea had stated that the cause of the problems that these particular horses were having was identified as their structure.

 

I am interested in knowing more about the progression of the jumping problems in relationship to the structure of these particular horses. If Tea has that information.

[juliepoudrier]

Here's a question related to structure and ETS: If structural problems have been ruled out, then that implies that an ideal structure for agility is known. And yet people run agility with all sorts of dogs, with varying structures, so is there really an true, single ideal structure for agility?

 

And if not, then is it possible that a dog that appears not to have structural problems causing ETS, might actually have such problems, just not obvious because the dog appears, on the surface, to be structurally sound (from an agility perspective).

 

And please, I'd like to hear some actual thoughts on this question, not just the dismissive "don't you think Mecklenberg already thought of that?" type answers.

 

I won't presume to try to answer Kristine's question to T, since only T will satisfy, but I think there are plenty of examples in the horse world of horse with "poor structure" or at least not "ideal structure" who went on to perform brilliantly in their careers, including racing and show jumping.

 

I know what I like when I look at a horse--what I think is athletic, what I think might cause an animal to not perform up to par, but it's always eye opening to see other opinions on the same horse....

 

J.

[Blackdawgs]

There is also this intangible thing called heart that can overcome poor "structure". .

[Root Beer]

Thanks Tea. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

 

Sometimes you can see it from the first especially if you are very experienced. However it becomes clearer as the fences become more difficult. Or as you begin to have physical problems and go to a good trainer who says...well the horse is doing such and so to compensate for what have you in its conformation.

 

This is definitely a difference between the scenario that you observed and the dogs that are considered to possibly have ETS.

 

A dog who jumps poorly due to structure would not be considered an ETS dog, even if the problem manifests as early take off.

 

Also, if a good trainer works with the dog, tweaks the handler's handling, and the dog is able to jump correctly, that dog is also not considered to possibly have ETS.

 

Those things are part of the screening process that takes place before ETS is considered as a possibility.

 

I have not seen this dog jumping thing very much but in horses we train to get the back and hindquarters very very strong using the principles of dressage. This helps the horse use its muscles correctly when jumping.

 

We do this through hind end work. We use ladders and cavalettis, and many of us do quite a bit with pivots. Some jump grids are designed to help build those muscles, as well.

 

Also because we are riding the horse we can set up the line and speed and degree of engagement within a hairs fraction...I do not know if you can do this with the dogs?

 

I'm not sure exactly what you are describing, so I can't say if there is an equivalent with dogs on that.

 

The horses used in three day followed a particular type of horse. They all were very similar. You guys I believe are working with many types of dogs.

 

True - all different types.

 

I do not think your dog early take off is genetic.

 

I don't know one way or the other. I don't believe that the studies that have been done thus far have led to a definitive conclusion at this point.

 

Again, thanks for taking the time to answer those questions. I appreciate it.

[juliepoudrier]

I'm not sure exactly what you are describing, so I can't say if there is an equivalent with dogs on that.

 

The rider is in direct contact with the horse. The rider can use her/his body (legs, seat bones) to greatly influence the movement of the horse: collection, extension, bend, etc., all of which can then be applied to choosing the spot where the horse should take off to successfully clear an obstacle. In this sense, it's more of a team effort because although the horse certainly knows *how* to jump, the rider is directly influencing the horse's movement leading up to and over the jump. For example, if the horse needs to make a sharp turn over the jump to keep the best/fastest line to the *next* jump, the rider can use her own body to influence the horse to turn in mid-air so that it lands appropriately for the next obstacle.

 

I think it would be much more difficult, if not impossible, to do this with a dog because you have no way to directly physically influence the dog. The dog is relying solely on visual cues from the handler to accomplish the same things described above.

 

J.

[Root Beer]

The rider is in direct contact with the horse.

 

Yes, I understood that part. What was unclear was the exact exercise that the horse and rider are doing as they set the line. What is the approach (straight on, from an angle, etc)? How is that varied from one repetition to the next in the exercise?

 

RE: The exercise where the horse gallops, jumps, gallops, and the line is set precisely.

 

While the physical connection between horse and rider cannot be replicated, some elements of the exercise may be. We do set lines with the dogs in Agility, and the position and motion of the handler does affect the dog's line, speed, and degree of engagement, that in spite of the fact that we are not actually on the dog.

[workindogs]

A long time ago I played oboe in an orchestra.

The conductor stopped practice one day because a trumpet player was out of tune. The Trumpet player insisted he was in tune. The conductor insisted that the trumpet player was, in fact, out of tune. The Trumpet player emphatically insisted that he was, most definitely, IN tune. The back and forth ensued...with quite a bit of passion. So, the conductor re-tuned the entire orchestra to the trumpet player.

We all sounded like CRAP!!

[juliepoudrier]

I'm not sure what you're asking? Are you asking what exercises are being done during training, or specifically what is done on the approach to a jump?

 

Just as with agility, you can train jumping at home, varying heights, distances, angles, etc., but I don't think that's what you're asking here.

 

J.

[Root Beer]

. . . but I don't think that's what you're asking here.

 

Correct.

 

Tea wrote:

 

This helps the horse use its muscles correctly when jumping. (Although the three day horse must gallop flat out then be brought back to jump then gallop again.) Also because we are riding the horse we can set up the line and speed and degree of engagement within a hairs fraction...I do not know if you can do this with the dogs?

 

I've bolded the part that I was referring to when I asked about the line and speed, regarding the exercise.

 

Perhaps I misunderstood. Is the flat out gallop - jump - gallop a particular muscle building exercise of which the degree of engagement is a component?

 

I understood it that way on my first reading of Tea's post, but perhaps that is not what Tea meant?

[juliepoudrier]

I think Tea was speaking specifically of cross country competition (as part of a three-day event). In that, time is a factor, so between jumps the horse is allowed to speed up--gallop--but when approaching a jump the horse is recollected to give it a better opportunity to jump safely and correctly. Consider the water jump, for example, where the horse goes over a jump, lands in the water, canters a stride or two or three through the water and then has to jump back out. That's definitely the sort of jump that is tricky enough on its own, so you'd want the horse's approach to be correct going over and into the water and then jumping back out. On the line from the previous jump to the water jump, the horse will be galloping (for a fast time), but at the approach to the jump, the rider will ask to horse to collect, take the jump, and once the jump has been negotiated successfully, then the horse will be asked to gallop out again. Gallop--jump--gallop. Collection doesn't need to be but for a stride or two, so you're not greatly affecting your overall time, but by doing that collecting before a jump you're definitely increasing the likelihood of a safe jump.

 

As for the collection--extension aspect of that, it can be taught/practiced on the flat (the dressage foundation Tea mentioned).

 

Tea may have a different explanation of what she meant, but this is how I read it.

 

J.

[MrSnappy]

 

I know what I like when I look at a horse--

 

I know what you like when you look at a horse too, because you post them all on FB and drive me crazy! I want a pony!!!

 

RDM

[G. Festerling]

See, here is where we go back to this structure thing again. Which is in one other word conformation. And in many people's eyes the end all and be all in breeding.

We as humans have become so arrogant to think that we know and can control who can do what. One of the most successful jumpers was a rather unassuming and far from structurally correct horse by the name of Deister.

Heart is as important as being able to function physically.

And it is foolish to think that any athlete can maintain the same level of performance past a certain stage/ae. Structural changes due to aging. Mental changes due to aging and experiences (and no, once again, many are so arrogant as to believe they can control anything).

Do these competitors actually truly believe that they are perfect? That they can beat normal wear and tear forever instead of just for a bit longer than the average team? That a "syndrome" has to be the cause for what appears to be perfectly normal?

If, in many years ETS proves out to have an actual genetic root, feel free to remind me of this post. But in all honesty, I grew up in a world where my own experiences and knowledge make me not lean towards believing it one bit. Sorry.

[juliepoudrier]

I know what you like when you look at a horse too, because you post them all on FB and drive me crazy! I want a pony!!!

 

RDM

That chestnut Welsh pony would be perfect for you! Maybe I'll get to the point where I can afford a horse again and then I won't torture folks with horses in needs of homes. Nah, not likely. I'll still want to share the beauties that come through Camelot....

 

J.

[Tea]

Oh My....Workingdogs...I think you have it!!!!

 

But we are only talking.

 

 

 

 

Guys...when I say conformation I mean this. When we looked at a horse to use as a potential upper level three day horse we would use our best guess. No one...can absolutely say this horse will make it this one won't. However my best upper level horse was tied in below the kneee and that predisposed him to problems which started occurring before I retired him as I don't believe in damaging my partner.

 

 

Show Jumping, flat racing and three day are vastly different.

 

Julie has it correct on the galloping and bring horse back to jump. This is because when you gallop the weight is on the front end. When you jump you must shift some weight back to the hindquarters, how much depends on the terrain and the type of fence.

 

 

Yes courage has alot to do with it. Absolutely. Both horse and rider. A little suicidal too helps.

 

 

I don't think I have enough time to explain exactlly how the spot is infuenced by speed and line and engagement. But they truly are. And some horses and riders can find this easy and some no. The best are very very good. Julie saw this in her explanation of an angled line of fences. Where drift if its on a hill can kill you.

 

The horses when I was running three day were about 16 hh and weedy, thin. Now since the sport has changed and gotten more technical it is more the warmblood crossbrreds.

 

 

I don't know about ladders and stuff to get dogs hindquarters strong. I suppose.

 

Maybe all this is not a good comparison.

 

I know this about the dogs, I still would only want them bred for work.

 

Horses are hard. As they only foal one foal and some time before you are working.

 

And when I was running, a person died every year. It was a dangerous sport. So yes we really tried to pick the right horse for the job.

 

I am kinda embarassed to say the above. Because I stopped doing this because I did not believe at the end it was a good thing to do to a beloved partner.

 

Maybe it is because I am no longer young. I see such a fierce light in the eyes of the young threeday horses and their riders. They ask me for help so I give it.

 

And here it was fun to remember things it took me a lifetime to learn that I now do not use much.

[Sue R]

Just a short aside on "structure" (or "conformation") - I got to see a wolf in person today and was reminded yet again (when remembering photos or videos of wolves) that none of them would win a ribbon in a show ring - they are often a bit narrow through the elbows, turned out at the toes (front and/or back), and rather cow-hocked. But they are built to last, or they would not last in the wild; they are built to cover miles over a lifetime, or they would not last in the wild; they are built for endurance and bursts of speed, or they would not last in the wild.

 

For most breeds, the show ring world emphasizes straight legs (as does much of the horse show world) when seen from the front and a certain level of angulation when viewed from the side (oftentimes rather posty-legged hind legs at that for many breeds), just what are they saying - that the wolf (which in not built that way) is poorly structured or conformed to cover ground, have stamina, or last?

 

I think it's quite another example of people setting "standards" that really don't have any real basis in fact or actual working situations. Rather like breeding dogs that hardly resemble dogs any more.

 

Back to your regularly-scheduled programming...

[simba]

I think it's quite another example of people setting "standards" that really don't have any real basis in fact or actual working situations. Rather like breeding dogs that hardly resemble dogs any more.

 

Back to your regularly-scheduled programming...

 

There's also the question of how well the animal manages to compensate for their faults (think world-class runners with really weird gaits).

 

Or the actual movement- you could have a dog that looks picture-perfect structure-wise but it has limited motion at some joints, or it has some normal variation in the joint itself which could potentially limit its function (something as simple as a shallow socket or a nub of bone, or something fused which shouldn't be.) I wonder what kind of physical exam is usually done on these dogs, and what the findings are.

 

Stuff like that's quite common in humans, but we can tell someone what the problem is, and we're not usually expected to do that kind of athletic stuff. You do see these problems in athletes- sometimes they start off fine because they're compensating enough for a flaw. After a while they're tired or get a little injured, or lose a bit of muscle mass, or they're affected by normal wear and tear, and they don't compensate so well any more.

 

Because ETS is a collection of symptoms, and it's pretty much a diagnosis of exclusion, it's more than possible that it's not necessarily caused by any one thing.

 

Having said all that I'm not sure why genetic research would be all that useful, as opposed to research on treatment, common factors physically and mentally in the dogs etc. I suppose if it happened to be wonderfully simply inherited you could come up with a test to avoid getting or breeding dogs predisposed to ETS,or could establish some commonality between affected dogs, but it seems of limited use otherwise. Not saying it shouldn't be done, but it's not the first thing I'd research.

[juliepoudrier]

For those of you who do agility, do you train the dog to slow/collect before the jump (sort of a pre-contact)? It's not evident from the videos I've seen, but maybe I'm missing something subtle in that split second moment before the jump.

 

What comes to mind is steeplechasers, who often jump *through* the brush at the top of a jump. These horses are jumping flatter because they're jumping at speed, as opposed to Tea's example of the cross country horse that is asked for a bit of collection before each jump. Because the jumps in this case are generally solid, correct jumping form is critically important (a mistake could mean severe injury or death), whereas it's not as important for the steeplechasers....

 

It seems that agility dogs are being asked to jump at speed like a steeplechaser and yet clear the jumps carefully like a stadium or cross country jumper, without the benefit of help collecting themselves before each jump. In the case of a horse, the rider is right there to help the horse collect properly. There's no equivalent for the dog that I can figure. And so even if a dog normally jumps correctly, I can see a situation where the speed wills out and the dog misjudges takeoff point and drops bars. In this sense, I wouldn't really consider it a training issue, because the dog can't ever really understand *why* it should collect itself before a jump in order to jump correctly (in the case of the horse, the human is able to remind the horse to collect and can physically enforce that idea).

 

J.

[Root Beer]

Tea - you might enjoy reading Mecklenburg's writings on this subject. She had a great deal of experience in horses before getting into dogs, and she does make references to horses when she discusses the subject of ETS, including the use of jumping grids as part of her evaluation process.

 

It is interesting that two of the best known names in Agility in jump training (Mecklenburg and Salo) actually came from working with horses originally.

[terrecar]

For most breeds, the show ring world emphasizes straight legs (as does much of the horse show world) when seen from the front and a certain level of angulation when viewed from the side (oftentimes rather posty-legged hind legs at that for many breeds), just what are they saying - that the wolf (which in not built that way) is poorly structured or conformed to cover ground, have stamina, or last?

 

 

I have thought about this as well, particularly regarding the east/west front that wolves have, contrasted with the straight front required of most dog breeds. No clue how we got the idea that we might be able to improve upon natural selection in terms of structure and movement. But hey, that GSD's impressive forward reach and free flowing sidegait sure does look purty, even if he does look crippled in the rear. Who needs function?!

[Tea]

The wolf image is a great one.

 

 

 

Steeplechase is part of three day.

 

Some fences you 'fly'

some you don't. The course designer can be onery and give you a fly fence then close after give you something the horse must jump off his hindquarters. I have seen many falls ivolving things like that.

 

A three day endurance day was miles of trotting called roads and tracks...then 2 mile steeplechase course- then more roads and tracks then 5 mile x-c course.

[Root Beer]

It seems that agility dogs are being asked to jump at speed like a steeplechaser and yet clear the jumps carefully like a stadium or cross country jumper, without the benefit of help collecting themselves before each jump. In the case of a horse, the rider is right there to help the horse collect properly. There's no equivalent for the dog that I can figure.

 

That help comes from the handling. This is something that I've been studying a great deal lately. If my handling does not indicate collection at the proper time before certain turns (by my body position in relationship to the dog, the line and speed of my own movement, even the way my feet are pointing at a given time), the dog will likely either knock the bar, or head in the wrong direction after taking the jump. This, of course, is not ETS!! This is the process of learning solid handling, the dog learning to read it properly, and the team coming together to read the most subtle of cues in one another. It is incredibly complex, but also very cool when you start to get the hang of it.

 

Of course, this does not happen in the same way as it does on a horse, but it is parallel to what you describe above.

 

We absolutely don't leave the dog on his or her own to know whether a jump taken at speed should be taken in collection or extension, especially on turns. If we do, that is a handling deficiency. Some handlers probably get it very naturally, but I've had to work like crazy to even begin to get the hang of it.

 

That is why one of the first things that is going to be explored when a dog is screened for ETS is to make sure that handling issues are not in play. That is probably one of the easiest things to evaluate, since a more competent handler running the dog, or tweaks to the owner's handling, will show whether or not handling actually changes the dog's takeoff point.

 

Back to handling, though - it amazes me, time and time again, that the dogs can read our body language when they are moving so fast and often seem not to even be looking at us (that peripheral vision is truly incredible), but they do, and often the slightest mistake, causes the dog to err on the course. And the slightest moment of brilliance can result in some breathtaking Agility.

[juliepoudrier]

Tea,

I think we're talking about traditional vs. short format eventing....

 

J.

[geonni banner]

Based on what I've read here, and in other threads, I think that the identification of ETS in Agility dogs has a lot in common with the diagnosis Asperger's syndrome in children.

 

A child psychiatrist I know has told me that there are a range of characteristics which get tagged with the label Asperger's syndrome because several of these characteristics commonly appear together. There is no known genetic etiology and brain imaging techniques have not identified a clear common pathology. It is most often viewed as being on a continuum with Autism. And it often seems to "run in families."

 

A case is being made for the idea that it isn't a disorder at all, but simply a "difference" from classic, mainstream behavior patterns.

 

In the case of ETS, it occurs in a wide range of breeds and types of dogs, so it isn't breed specific. It may or may not have to do with the dog's structure, state of mind, or be "triggered" by situational factors. I think it very likely that each of these factors or combinations of some with or without a genetic component may be responsible for the failures on the agility field which are labeled ETS. In fact, I doubt that there is such a thing as ETS - but rather just individual dogs that have difficulty with a high-speed performance event for a variety of reasons.

 

I think Tea has cited the most effective "cure" with her example of the event horse - take the dogs who demonstrates a pronounced difficulty with agility competition out of the sport. Since it seems only to occur in that setting it not something that Border Collies need to be "bred away from." And since it is probably no fun for the dog to be crashing into things, why keep placing them in that situation? No dog needs to charge around an agility course to be happy and/or healthy. Nor do I see how simply slowing down, lowering jumps in a backyard setting would not be an answer for the "challenged" dog, if it really like to do a course. I do indeed think it would involve setting aside certain aspects of ego. But I can't see why anyone would do any activity with a dog unless the dog was getting as much of a bang out of it as the handler. That is not just ego - good or bad - it's hubris.

 

JMO