Early Takeoff Syndrome?

[Root Beer]

The former is about the owner's ego (poor performance/placement in any dog competition is about owner ego);

 

I'd say that finding that something that one blamed oneself for (or was continually told to blame oneself for) is actually something over which one did not have direct control is more than ego. It is knowing the truth. Personally, I value that above any placement or performance, whether the issue at hand is ETS or anything else.

[Mark Billadeau]

The presence or absence of ETS would be irrelevant if placing well in agility held no value to the owner. If placing well did not hold value, then the owner would not enter the ETS dog into competitions and would only do it for fun.

 

We should be honest, we enter our dogs into our chosen sport for our own enjoyment (the dogs would be just as happy doing it at home), and trying to get better performance in competition is all about our egos.

 

The other reason to enter competitions would be for guiding the selection process for breeding; however, this should only apply to stockdog trials.

[Mark Billadeau]

I'm off for a while; we're off to Quiet Acres SDT so my ego can get slapped.

[Root Beer]

The presence or absence of ETS would be irrelevant if placing well in agility held no value to the owner.

 

I disagree. There are a good many of us who couldn't care less if our dogs place. I don't. It's fun when we do, but we often don't, and I don't walk away feeling that we have not accomplished what we set out to do.

 

For many - and I would say the vast majority of ordinary Agility enthusiasts - the ability to play the game to the best of a team's capacity is quite often the goal. And each team's capacity can vary to every extent imaginable.

 

And yes, it is utterly heartbreaking when a dog who formerly played well (good jumping, weaves, confidence, etc) suddenly loses that skill for one reason or another. Especially when it is a reason that the handler has no control over and cannot simply "fix".

 

So much more is lost than the ability to place. And even though it cannot replace what is lost, having some understanding of why this happened is helpful. As I said above - it is knowing the truth, and that is valuable in and of itself.

 

If placing well did not hold value, then the owner would not enter the ETS dog into competitions and would only do it for fun.

 

It is easy to attribute motives to a person, based on what is observed from the outside, but often one is mistaken in doing so.

 

For some, yes, that is going to be the case. Those who are set on the world team, and the like.

 

But for many, there is something else to it. Even when you are just doing it "for fun", there is a certain degree to which skill is necessary. If the dog is knocking bars left and right, it isn't much fun.

 

We should be honest, we enter our dogs into our chosen sport for our own enjoyment (the dogs would be just as happy doing it at home), and trying to get better performance in competition is all about our egos.

 

For me, and for many others, it is about more than that. It is about sharing a passion with other like minded people, as much as sharing it with the dog. It is about overcoming obstacles that can't be measured by Q's, placements, or titles. It is about accomplishing something that can only be accomplished as a dog and handler team.

 

That goes way beyond ego. But maybe that is one of those things that one has to experience firsthand to really get.

 

The other reason to enter competitions would be for guiding the selection process for breeding; however, this should only apply to stockdog trials.

 

That's news to me. I enter for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with placing well, ego, or breeding. I know plenty of others who do, as well.

[Blackdawgs]

I have yet to hear of a local dog with ETS.

I am curious as to whether ETS only afflicts dogs of high calabre players

This comes back to the winning vs having fun thing.

[Maralynn]

 

But for many, there is something else to it. Even when you are just doing it "for fun", there is a certain degree to which skill is necessary. If the dog is knocking bars left and right, it isn't much fun.

 

 

If the only issue is knocking bars and you're just doing it for fun, then why not just adjust the equipment?

[Root Beer]

If the only issue is knocking bars and you're just doing it for fun, then why not just adjust the equipment?

 

For some part of the fun is playing in a low key competition venue, and the rules dictate whether or not, or how much, the bars may be adjusted.

 

Some don't enjoy things as much in isolation as we do as part of something bigger. That is as true for some dogs as it is for some people. You may not have met any personally (or maybe you have) but there are some dogs that very obviously love to be out and about, doing things in a crowd. I see this in one of my own dogs in a surprisingly dramatic way.

 

Even when doing something "just for fun", if the most fun is to be had in a specific context, then certain rules are going to apply. If a problem arises, and there are answers to the issue out there, those answers might benefit the handler, whether his or her goals are "just fun" or something else.

 

Back when we had the initial debate about this topic, I expressed the position that regardless of one's goals, if there is a problem of any kind (ETS, a health issue, a phobia, anything), it is better to know as much about what is truly going on as possible (especially if one is being blamed for something that is actually beyond his or her control). Even if only for the sake of knowing the truth. I maintain that position now.

 

Study for the sake of coming to know more about something is a good thing, even if one is not trying to make the world team or has no intention of breeding.

 

I applaud the efforts of Mecklenburg, et al, as they work, in spite of the critics (and there are enough of those, from within the Agility world and from the outside), to try to find answers to this particular problem.

[rushdoggie]

I have yet to hear of a local dog with ETS.

I am curious as to whether ETS only afflicts dogs of high calabre players

This comes back to the winning vs having fun thing.

 

My guess is that a less skilled handler/trainer assumes that its the handler, not the dog and move past agility because they "can't get it together." My ex has a dog who had a lot of jumping issues, who may have had something wrong with her, but in his eyes, agility just wasn't her thing so they moved onto other activities.

[Blackdawgs]

My guess is that the speed and "drive" envelop has been pushed too far, that we are starting dogs too early and this is beginning to bite people in the butts (although there are certainly dogs out there with undiagnosed vision issues).

 

We all know that the faster one drives a car, the less margin for error, especially if there is anxiety about reaching ones destination FAST.

 

Not everyone has the reflexes to race in NASCAR and not everyone has the speed and hand-eye coordination to play top level tennis. In most cases this is a matter of bell curves and population biology rather than a medical "syndrome"

 

The truth is that some dogs (despite their speed, "drive", "structure", and expert training) are probably just incapable of jumping cleanly at speed.

[dmadrid]

My guess is that a less skilled handler/trainer assumes that its the handler, not the dog and move past agility because they "can't get it together." My ex has a dog who had a lot of jumping issues, who may have had something wrong with her, but in his eyes, agility just wasn't her thing so they moved onto other activities.

 

 

I think it would actually go the other way... the less skilled the handler, the more likely they will be to blame errors on the dog. They won't be able to tell where they've gone wrong, or miscued something... and I think we've probably all heard people say something to the effect of "but he knows what he's supposed to do!" far too many times when the dog is showing obvious confusion. The end result, though, would be the same, and they'll probably move on to something else.

 

I do know at least one local person here in TX that has an ETS dog. I don't know the breeding of that dog, whether it is sport or working bred. This person is reasonably competitive locally, but is not a bigwig by any stretch. So yes, even dogs of 'normal' people can have ETS.

[Ooky]

Let me give a crude, cartoonish example. Kristine worries about Border Collie "Noise Phobia" and there's no doubt many Border Collies react badly to thunder/gunshot/sudden noise. Others - fewer I think - are so sound sensitive they alert to sounds you and I can't hear.

 

I've owned one such and some years ago, visiting Carol Benjamin in her NY City apartment, I worried (they worried too) about Flash, their first assistance Border Collie. Car horns, rumbling trucks, police sirens - poor nervy Flash. Somehow, happily, Flash accommodated himself.

 

So why not find the gene for sound sensitivity and breed against it? Well, er: because stockdogs need unusually acute hearing. If you ever have the privilege of working the top of a big trial - 6-800 yard outrun, you'll realize that the outrunning dog is attending to handler whistles which are blanketed by bird songs. We humans can't even hear the whistles the dog is responding to.

 

We bred these dogs to be exquisitely sound sensitive - a sensitivity which makes them pace nervously and constantly alert in New York City apartments. Like keenness, sound sensitivity is counter-indicated in a family pet. But - that same sensitivity makes it possible for them to work a mile or more from their shepherd and hear through rushing rain/the thunder of hooves.

 

What we know is that exclusive breeding for stockwork, with no other consideration, has produced and continues to produce the dogs we love and need - the same dogs that have brought us all to these boards.

 

It's taken me a full day to get through most of this thread. Couldn't hold back any more. +100, from a mom who is waiting for her wonderful kid to grow into her amazing, life-changing border collie (and future collies), rather than wanting border collies to be bred to be more kid friendly.

[Root Beer]

Just to clarify, although off the direct topic of ETS, the noise phobia to which I refer is not the sound sensitivity to which Mr. McCaig refers. I live with two other Border Collies and both are sound sensitive in the way that he describes. I've seen what he is talking about in many, many Border Collies.

 

Noise phobia (vs. sound sensitivity) is a completely crippling condition for the dog. Indeed, it is not a trait that one would want in a stockdog. Yes, I know there are noise phobic dogs who will work in thunder, with gunshots, nuclear explosions, etc. Realize that there are different degrees of noise phobia. This dog's condition does not allow for him to override his extreme response to certain noise triggers for anything, even those things he is highly driven to do under normal conditions. Again, I have one like that - her drive to work is so strong that it overrides her sensitivity toward thunder (her "work" not being stockwork, but that which is her work). My noise phobic dog cannot do that.

 

I wish I were dealing with cartoonish examples with this dog and it really was just a case of a less than ideal living situation for a Border Collie. As it is, I am grateful that he has meds that help enough for him to live a normal life and, yes, even enjoy Agility because I am willing to accommodate this very difficult problem to make it possible.

 

I am definitely one who considers it a blessing to have some (although I'd love more) real information on his issues that, in turn, have made it possible for me to give him the best life possible, even though I cannot remove the phobia and its effects from his life altogether. Having that information has allowed me to be proactive and make informed decisions on his behalf.

 

I do not make breeding decisions for such dogs, but would I breed him if he were intact and he were everything else I could possibly want in every other way? No way. I would not set another living creature up to deal with this level of a phobia if his offspring would be the last Border Collies on earth. (Again, he is neutered and I don't breed).

 

This is something quite different from the sound sensitivity that most Border Collies have.

[jdarling]

A test for ETS (if it can be produced) is only useful for providing a genetic reason why dogs do not perform/place well at a sport or for breeding dogs for sport. The former is about the owner's ego (poor performance/placement in any dog competition is about owner ego); the latter is about developing a different breed of dog (i.e. Agility Border).

 

This couldn't be more spot on.

[Debbie Meier]

Kristine, I can say with out a doubt that noise phobia does not breed 100% true. Ricky's dam had it bad, she would just wad up in a shaking ball and was unable to function when we had thunder storms. But, I don't regret breeding her, Ricky has not shown any sign of having issues with the affliction, not even to the point of needing to work to get his mind off the thunder or other loud noises. We dealt with thunderstorms all weekend this past weekend and I never once worried about where he was at and if he was going to have an issue with the thunder.

 

I have observed a couple of his pups that were more sound sensitive then others, one particular one the owner felt would not work during a thunder storm, but she proved her owner wrong and didn't miss a beat while working and actually showed that she could handle the noise better then expected when not working once she worked through it.

 

So, based on my direct expirence, if a person had a exceptional working dog, I would not expect that person to take that dog out of the gene pool and would actually feel that it would be sad to do so, especially if the dogs offspring were going to be the last border collies on this earth.

 

We do make extra efforts to be certain that any dog we have that gets nervous about thunderstorms is not able to influence any pups we have at the time, more often then not we have a bunch of pups excitedly barking at the lightening bolts until the rain falling makes them retreat to their dog houses. It is interesting to me that so far each dog that we have owned that had issues with thunder storms were not raised here but instead dogs that came from other breeders and we have not seen any indication that the offspring is plauged with the same level of sensitivity which really makes me question as to if the phobia is really genetic or not, or if it is genetic if the degree that it is exhibited has to do with the environment and is partially learned.

[Liz P]

Debbie, thunderstorm phobia generally shows up later in life, sometimes as late as 8 or 10 years old. It is rare in dogs under 2 years of age, though the dogs who are noise phobic this young tend to be the more severe cases. Ricki may yet become thunder phobic as he gets older. I believe the average age of onset listed in the study was around 6 years old, but it often takes several more years to become severe enough for owners to seek treatment.

 

OK, went back and reread the info. Looks like the dogs were a little nervous of storms earlier in life, by 2 years of age, but generally not phobic until 5 to 9 years old.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Liz P

[SS Cressa]

Can you share where you got that info about the thunder phobia in older age?

 

Cressa in the last year has started to become spooked by thunder but it was after we had some severe thunder storms that had actually scared me. And she has always been sound sensitive.

[Blackdawgs]

I have a dog (not a Border Collie) that is noise phobic. The problem can be linked to a kid throwing a firecracker towards her when she was a pup. Certain noises would cause her to do a 180 during walks. The problem peaked after the SWAT team raided a drug house behind me and set off noise bombs. Interestingly as she has gotten older, she has become less sensitive to some noises. I no longer have to medicate her during storms, on the 4th of July , and on New Years eve. She is now 11.

 

About 3 years ago, she freaked out over the teeter banging at an agility trial and I was never able to get her back into the ring. For a time, she was happily doing run thrus and she freaked out in that environment as well.

 

So, she doesn't go to agility environments, even to hang out, anymore.

 

I can't control thunderstorms. I can't control SWAT team noise bombs. But, I can control driving her to environments that scare her.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Miss Kristine writes: "Just to clarify, although off the direct topic of ETS, the noise phobia to which I refer is not the sound sensitivity to which Mr. McCaig refers. I live with two other Border Collies and both are sound sensitive in the way that he describes. I've seen what he is talking about in many, many Border Collies.

 

Noise phobia (vs. sound sensitivity) is a completely crippling condition for the dog. Indeed, it is not a trait that one would want in a stockdog. "

 

Sorry. I don't understand the distinction. I have had sound sensitive dogs and "noise phobic" dogs and the second is the first but worse. Although it's never been more than an annoyance for me, I know of one fine dog owned by savvy handlers who had to be put down after every remedy was tried because the dog was destroying himself in thunderstorms.

 

As far as I know, sound sensitivity can be mild or extreme and in the extreme cases some folks call it "noise phobia". Stage 1 and stage 4 cancer are cancer.

 

Donald McCaig

[Root Beer]

Kristine, I can say with out a doubt that noise phobia does not breed 100% true.

 

Regardless, after witnessing what this particular dog goes through, I could not, in good conscience, take that risk. Regardless of what the potential benefits might be to any gene pool.

 

That is, obviously, a choice that is going to vary from person to person, but if even a small percentage of the dogs were to have to deal with this degree of the condition, I would not take that chance.

[Root Beer]

Sorry. I don't understand the distinction.

 

Many do not. I have considered taking some film, and perhaps next thunder season I will. Many fail to believe the extent to which this particular dog shuts down due to certain noise triggers. Perhaps a visual showing the distinction between severe noise phobia and a more typical sound sensitivity would prove helpful.

 

Since, thankfully, thunder season seems to be well behind us, that will not happen until next spring/summer.

 

Let me be clear - I would never deliberately expose him to an extreme sound trigger in order to take such video. But since I have no control over thunder or neighborhood fireworks, I am willing to document what happens with him when those things happen anyway.

 

I also have one who is typically sound sensitive, so I can also document the contrast.

 

As far as I know, sound sensitivity can be mild or extreme and in the extreme cases some folks call it "noise phobia". Stage 1 and stage 4 cancer are cancer.

 

Yes, cancer is cancer. However, a phobia and a sensitivity are not, by definition, the same thing.

[Liz P]

As far as I know, sound sensitivity can be mild or extreme and in the extreme cases some folks call it "noise phobia". Stage 1 and stage 4 cancer are cancer.

 

Donald McCaig

 

Donald, there are very clear definitions of a phobia. Phobic dogs have killed themselves trying to get away from thunder, fireworks and gun shots. Sensitive dogs might just seek out comfort from their owners or go into a crate to avoid the noise.

 

"A phobia is an intense but unrealistic fear that can interfere with the ability to socialize, work, or go about everyday life, brought on by an object, event or situation."

 

And not all cancer is the same. Not even close! Some types will actually resolve on their own and never recur, even if left in place and not treated. Others kill quickly in virtually every patient, even with aggressive treatment.

 

SS Cressa, that info came from a study done by Dr. Dodman.

[G. Festerling]

I so can not remember all of the posts in this.

Blackdawgs recent posts (705 and 709 specifically) are very much in line with my attitude about it.

 

I keep reading about training issues and modifying jumps and changing styles....to me, this is not legit 100% of the time.

To me, there is no way to change (permanently and without fail) the basic nature of an animal that will always show itself once you add stress, excitement etc. Will training cover up or modify some less desirable habits sure. All of them. No way. It is arrogant to think so as a trainer.

[katenjim]

Dear Doggers,

 

 

 

Sorry. I don't understand the distinction. I have had sound sensitive dogs and "noise phobic" dogs and the second is the first but worse. Although it's never been more than an annoyance for me, I know of one fine dog owned by savvy handlers who had to be put down after every remedy was tried because the dog was destroying himself in thunderstorms.

 

Donald McCaig

 

The difference being, having a dog that is nervous - scared of noises, thunder storms, gun shots etc. Having the ability to control them to a degree that lessens the severity, whether its drugs, crating, a safe hiding place etc.

 

The other extreme is having a dog go through a glass window, running away with broken limbs, running off at a trial field down a four lane highway. No drugs, crating, conditioning helps...at all.

[juliepoudrier]

To me, there is no way to change (permanently and without fail) the basic nature of an animal that will always show itself once you add stress, excitement etc.

Exactly. I worked with a stockdog once who exhibited certain default behaviors (taking stock down) when under stress. I could work that dog, even in more stressful situations like tight spaces, because I could stay calm myself (so the dog couldn't feed off me) and I could read the dog and the stock and therefore prevent bad stuff from happening. But, and I explained this to her owner, whenever she was in a high-stress situation, no matter how much training I put on her, that default behavior would likely rear its ugly head. So this was a dog who could be worked in certain situations and was excellent in her work, but the handler would always have to keep in mind the default behavior and be prepared for it to manifest....

 

I know somewhere earlier on in this thread was a discussion about dogs who are overexcited/hyperexcited to run perhaps losing their ability to focus as needed on a jump, thus taking off early and knocking poles. Having seen the behaviors of animals who are either overexcited or in panic, this is a scenario that makes perfect sense to me. It's possible that what manifests as ETS is a combination of the dog's personality (lower on the self-control scale) and the desired excitability (amped "upness") needed for a really fast run that is the issue. When I refer to young stockdogs who are overexcited/overstimulated I say that they have left their brains at home. They do things they wouldn't normally do if I can get in their heads and get them to take a workmanlike attitude from the start. I can't help but wonder of the excitement--the being amped up--is at the root of the problem. In this case, the "turning the brain off" (or perhaps a better way to state it would be the dog either not focusing sufficiently or focusing on the wrong thing) results in poor jumping.

 

J.

[Ooky]

 

 

Yes, cancer is cancer. However, a phobia and a sensitivity are not, by definition, the same thing.

 

 

They do not have to be the exact same thing to be related, or two sides of the same coin, so to speak. I am not a breeder, but as a biologist I have studied many systems where the extreme versions of a complex trait are deleterious, or even a mental illness, but the median trait (or in very simple gene systems, the heterozygous condition) is adaptive/advantageous. So, selection for aggressive behavior may lead to aggressive fish that are more successful than docile fish, but if a fish is so aggressive it cannot attract a mate or even kills all potential mates it will actually do much worse than the low aggression fish.

 

What I mean by this is that it is very believable that breeding FOR the type of hearing you need in a working stockdog and/or other traits may well give rise to a larger number of dogs with the deleterious condition of noise phobia, however you want to define noise phobia, than if you didn't breed for dogs with very acute hearing. Also sensitivity and keenness -- I can actually see all of these traits tripping over into an a predisposition into deleterious anxiety over strong stimuli in general. Not saying I know this is the case with this condition in particular, I doubt anyone does. My point is breeding for the work is what has given us this dog, with all of its great pet traits AND all of the traits that are not desirable or perfect for all owners. And I doubt severe noise phobia is good for stock work so I do think you can select against the illness itself but still select FOR traits that would lead you to have a higher proportion of dogs in the outlier/too much sensitivity/phobic range. If there is a clear genetic marker for noise phobia, that's something that could benefit breeding for work, especially if it turns out to be a simple system where you need to avoid breeding two carriers together but a carrier to a normal would be fine. There is no scenario with ETS that I can think of that this would be the case. IF it is a neurological or vision disorder then it certainly only seems to affect the dog in VERY specific circumstances - that have nothing to do with stock work. Yet as others here have said if a marker could be developed it would certainly lend itself to breeding decisions and allow sport people another reason to avoid correctly bred border collies in favor of sporters. "Those icky working breeders don't even test for ETS! But my favorite kennel Top Speed Maniac Agilidogs does! They are the real responsible breeders..."

 

I had the pleasure of basically digesting this entire thread from start to finish yesterday and the take home message for me is that:

1) No one is even sure that ETS exists or that it is one "syndrome" or has been able to produce real evidence that it has anything to do with physiology, let alone genetics.

2) Breeding away from ETS is at its heart making breeding decisions that have nothing to do with working, hence is a stupid idea in my book.

3) I would like to know what Dr. Neff (I think this was the name) had to say about ETS, if anything.