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Early Takeoff Syndrome?


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No, but you are able to choose. The dog is not. The comparison doesn't work.

 

And yet nobody said boo when Eileen pointed out that a stockdog handler fitted her dog with contact lenses so it could work sheep.

 

Many years ago -- at least 15 -- I had a friend (some of you may remember her -- Kay Pine) who had a nearsighted dog. Her ophthalmologist prescribed contact lenses, and the dog was fitted with disposable lenses and wore them for awhile. Ginger was able to spot sheep better with the lenses, as well as doing some things better in her everyday life.

 

Isn't it the same thing? It's still 'forcing objects into a dog's eyes' so that the dog can perform the activity that the handler wants to pursue with it. Why is it any less ridiculous when a sheepdog wears contacts than when an agility dog does?

 

RDM

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Isn't it the same thing? It's still 'forcing objects into a dog's eyes' so that the dog can perform the activity that the handler wants to pursue with it. Why is it any less ridiculous when a sheepdog wears contacts than when an agility dog does?

 

Yes, it is the same thing. And no one is saying that using lenses for a sheepdog is any less ridiculous. Personally, I think people are pretty gunshy of this entire thread, and I can't say as I blame them. I even hesitated to post!

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Isn't it the same thing? It's still 'forcing objects into a dog's eyes' so that the dog can perform the activity that the handler wants to pursue with it. Why is it any less ridiculous when a sheepdog wears contacts than when an agility dog does?

 

RDM

 

Not really. In the big picture agility is a sport and Eileens example was used for everyday life. I must have missed where the working dog needed them to compete.

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Not really. In the big picture agility is a sport and Eileens example was used for everyday life. I must have missed where the working dog needed them to compete.

 

I even took that into account. If I needed a dog around here to help me, and had a really good one, and that dog needed contacts to be able to do its job, I would like to think I would retire that dog and train a new one rather than forcing foreign objects into its eyes. Seriously, how convenient would it be? Your neighbor calls because your sheep are loose and are in the road obstructing traffic. "C'mon Moss, let's go. Oh wait. Let me put your contacts in." I understand, in that instance, that the problem is in the fencing, but it happens. Just giving an example.

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No, but you are able to choose. The dog is not. The comparison doesn't work.

 

Sure it does, if you know how to observe the dog. It's not rocket science. If the dog is uncomfortable, it's possible to tell if you are half paying attention. If the dog is eager, that's pretty obvious, too.

 

No dog does Agility well if it isn't by choice, regardless of the circumstances.

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Isn't it the same thing? It's still 'forcing objects into a dog's eyes' so that the dog can perform the activity that the handler wants to pursue with it. Why is it any less ridiculous when a sheepdog wears contacts than when an agility dog does?

 

I agree.

 

We had this debate earlier in this thread. The fact that the activity in question is a sport and is not a matter of life, death, or livelihood (for most people - there are those who make a living off of Agility), does not necessarily negate the importance of the activity in every single person's life.

 

It would be interesting to see the responses from people if the contacts were being used for a service dog who would otherwise lose the ability to continue that service. Or a search and rescue dog. If all it would take for those dogs to be able to continue to perform the duties for which they have been trained and into which they have put their hearts throughout their lives were a simple set of contact lenses, would there still be the same talk of sticking things in their eyes for personal gratification. Honestly, I doubt it.

 

Agility is a game to us, but for a dog that has spent a large portion of his or her life training to participate, it can, indeed be much more. They don't know that what they are doing isn't a matter of life, death, or livelihood. To these dogs it is, indeed, the job for which they have been trained. Many of them take it quite seriously as a job, especially the more highly driven types. Sometimes this is the case even for the not-so-driven types.

 

And while it may be a matter of self gratification for some who don't want to discard their ETS dogs, or replace them with new puppies, or relegate their driven and active dogs to the life of a companion pet (which is a fine life for many dogs, but does not suit all of them), for others it is simply providing a way for the dog to continue to do something that has played a major role in the dog's life, is enjoyable to dog and handler, and is worth some extra measures to be able to continue.

 

They are contact lenses. For some teams - both dog and handler - they may well be worth it. If they work. This is just one dog and the lenses have not been tested in competition. There is a long way to go with learning about, and finding ways to help teams who are working hard to deal with this particular issue.

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If I had a sheepdog I had put thousands of hours and dollars into training and was given the choice of retiring it because of a medical condition or keep it working but use contacts, I would choose the contacts. My dogs are not objects or tools, they are my partners. Sure, sometimes hard decisions need to be made, but if there is a way to keep going and make both dog and handler happy, why not use it?

 

I've got a semi retired dog that I would fix if I could, but there is nothing that can be done to make him better. I just got bad news on another of my dogs. She isn't retired yet, but her career will likely be cut short. It's hard to see your faithful and trusted partner wanting but not able to do their job.

 

I don't agree that agility is as serious as working sheep, but I do understand why the agility trainers who own these dogs are upset.

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It would be interesting to see the responses from people if the contacts were being used for a service dog who would otherwise lose the ability to continue that service. Or a search and rescue dog. If all it would take for those dogs to be able to continue to perform the duties for which they have been trained and into which they have put their hearts throughout their lives were a simple set of contact lenses, would there still be the same talk of sticking things in their eyes for personal gratification. Honestly, I doubt it.

I honestly don't know how I feel about the contact lense issue. My biggest concern would be increased risks of infection, damage to the eye from improperly used lenses, etc.--the same problems that could affect a human who doesn't use or care for the lenses properly.

 

Personally, if I had a working dog who required corrective lenses in order to work, I probably would retire that dog or use it only in situations where perfect sight wasn't critical. (As for Eilieen's comments, I understood that the dog wore the contacts for some period of time and then stopped wearing them, so not the same as using them for the rest of its life, FWIW). It's all I can do to keep myself in contact lenses, and when money's tight, I stretch my use of them and so on, which isn't the best management practice from a health standpoint, but it's MY health and so I can choose. I don't know if I'd want to make that choice for my dogs.

 

As for the quote above, I think service dogs and SAR dogs are doing jobs that are life and death (for the most part) and that is different from any sport, be it agility or sheepdog trialing.

 

or relegate their driven and active dogs to the life of a companion pet (which is a fine life for many dogs, but does not suit all of them),

 

Many working dogs are driven and LOVE what they do. How could they not? It's in their genes. But there comes a time when all must retire, when they can't do the work anymore, can't stop the breakaway animal, can't stand up to the mama protecting its baby. Such dogs do adjust to a life of retirement or limited work based on their capabilities. They don't just shrivel up and die because they can't do what they loved to do and were bred to do, so I consider this a bit of hyperbole. ISTM that even top agility dogs have to retire at some point. Does it not suit them then to become beloved companions? Do they reach an age when they themselves admit that it's too much for their aging bodies and so acquiesce to becoming a pet? Or do we make that decision for them? <--No need to actually answer that as the answer is obvious.

 

To recap, I'm not arguing against contact lenses, though I doubt I would choose to go that route for my own dogs. But I do find the arguments *for* using them a bit tenuous at best.

 

J.

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Yes, it is the same thing. And no one is saying that using lenses for a sheepdog is any less ridiculous.

 

I was simply pointing out that Eileen's observation on a stockdog using contacts went unchallenged, but an agility dog using contacts seemed to generate ridicule (even from agility people). I wasn't referring to you specifically, I apologize if it seemed that way. I personally wouldn't put contacts in my dogs eyes for any activity, but I guess to some folks it's not so ridiculous... or it's only ridiculous for some activities and not others, which seems weird to me.

 

RDM

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Many working dogs are driven and LOVE what they do. How could they not? It's in their genes. But there comes a time when all must retire, when they can't do the work anymore . . .

 

Of course that time comes for every dog, unless illness or accident cuts his or her life short. I don't think anyone would deny that such a time must, unfortunately, come, and that the best needs to be made of it.

 

The question here is: If a relatively simple and straightforward measure can be taken that will prolong the dog's ability to work (regardless of the actual work, or job, of the dog), is taking that measure a reasonable thing to do?

 

It is worth noting, I think, that most ETS dogs are in the physical prime of their lives. If the majority of ETS dogs were senior dogs on the verge of retirement, anyway, I doubt the issue would be considered anything except an effect of old age, and the decision to retire the dogs in favor of putting forth resources to study the issue and try to find ways to overcome it would make far more sense to the Agility enthusiast who has invested a good portion of the dog's lifetime into training. That is not the case. And I think that is why the idea that the dog should simply be retired is met with some measure of disagreement.

 

I would say that taking a simple and straightforward measure to overcome the issue (if this is actually possible), will make sense to many who enjoy Agility. Granted, if there were a high potential for damage to the dog's eye, or if the dog found wearing the lenses aversive, then I would not consider their use to be simple and straightforward. But if they are understood to be relatively safe, if the handler can reasonably afford then, and if the dog has no issue with having them put in or taken our or with wearing them, then I would consider it to be a very simple matter

 

I can certainly see why some people would not consider using lenses in such a circumstance for various reasons, many of them good. But I can also understand why there are those who would and I think that in those situations, the decision to use the lenses may well be a very good one for both dog and handler.

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I would think that the act of inserting and removing the lenses would be stressful to the dog. I've medicated enough dog eyes to know that 1) dogs don't like having stuff put in their eyes 2) putting stuff in dogs' eyes is neither fun nor easy. 3) After a few applications of meds, my dogs became defensive and practiced avoidance behaviors.

 

I think that individuals and the sports community have to decide when enough is enough. Several months ago, there was an article in Clean Run written by a veterinarian, I think, who put her older dog thru multiple surgeries, so they could continue to compete. The surgeries were for the dog, ofcourse. It was interesting that the article concluded with a list of titles that were earned after the surgeries.

 

I see so many lame dogs on the local circuit. One of the local agility instructors was running 2 lame dogs. Isn't in wonderfuol that the 10 + year old lame dog (by the person's own admission on her blog) finally earned it's C-ATCH?? But, of course the dog loved agility soooo much. So, now this instructor was rewarded for running a lame dog with a c-ATCH. And what a wonderful example for her students !!!

 

If indivisuals don't self restrain themselves, the agility organizations will do it for them. Or maybe not, since Ive never seen a dog DQ'd for being lame.

 

Sure contact lenses seem pretty harmless. First contact lenses and then ???? It's a slippery slope

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The fact that the activity in question is a sport and is not a matter of life, death, or livelihood (for most people - there are those who make a living off of Agility), does not necessarily negate the importance of the activity in every single person's life.

 

It would be interesting to see the responses from people if the contacts were being used for a service dog who would otherwise lose the ability to continue that service. Or a search and rescue dog. If all it would take for those dogs to be able to continue to perform the duties for which they have been trained and into which they have put their hearts throughout their lives were a simple set of contact lenses, would there still be the same talk of sticking things in their eyes for personal gratification. Honestly, I doubt it.

 

At this point in time I highly doubt a SAR dog would be fitted for contact lenses. The dog would be retired if there was a physical ailment that interfered with its work.

 

And I think this is why -

My biggest concern would be increased risks of infection, damage to the eye from improperly used lenses, etc.--the same problems that could affect a human who doesn't use or care for the lenses properly

 

Contact lenses could throw new variables into a situation with enough already. Dogs, especially working dogs, have an incredibly high pain tolerance as is. A person could tell you if something was wrong, but a high drive dog might try to work through it and end up with disastrous/heartbreaking consequences.

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Visual sharpness can be tested in dogs by using a retinoscope. Although the tests sometimes reveal dogs are nearsighted, most veterinary ophthalmologists don't think contact lenses ever will be used to correct eyesight problems in dogs.

 

"Most visual problems in dogs are not caused by something that a contact lens could correct," Dr. Glaze said, "and the lenses wouldn't stay in long enough to be practical."

 

Putting the lenses on a dog could pose challenges. "People are not comfortable reaching into their dog's eye to put in or take out a lens, and it's highly unlikely the dog is going to let them do it," Dr. Dice said.

 

The Cutting Edge has custom-made corrective lenses for several field trial dogs that have poor vision, Jordan said. However, most dogs with subtle acuity problems get along perfectly well with their vision as it is.

 

"As long as the dog can find its food dish and can still jump up on the couch, most people are happy," Dr. Glaze said.

 

 

Obviously Dr. Glaze hasn't met the agility competitor! Though I did find where ACK said *no* to allowing them in the ring. So, if this is the new *fix* and it works, how are competitors going to convince ACK to allow them? Or will it be don't ask - don't tell policy? But you may be able to get them in candy colors :)

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Sure it does, if you know how to observe the dog. It's not rocket science. If the dog is uncomfortable, it's possible to tell if you are half paying attention. If the dog is eager, that's pretty obvious, too.

 

And this ... is why I hesitated to post at all. Sure, the handler can choose to put them in the dog's eyes, and the dog can exhibit discomfort and the handler can then take them out. But my point was ... the dog does not have the ability to choose whether or not they want them in there in the first place. But go ahead and disagree with me.

 

Nevermind ... I see the colorful, flower-laden bobbing horsies off the in distance. Must. Turn. Away.

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Though I did find where ACK said *no* to allowing them in the ring. So, if this is the new *fix* and it works, how are competitors going to convince ACK to allow them? Or will it be don't ask - don't tell policy? But you may be able to get them in candy colors :)

 

I'm not involved with AKC Agility, so I really wouldn't know.

 

What about USDAA? NADAC? CPE? DOCNA? ASCA? UKI? UKC?

 

Not sure what the rules in those venues would be.

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And this ... is why I hesitated to post at all. Sure, the handler can choose to put them in the dog's eyes, and the dog can exhibit discomfort and the handler can then take them out. But my point was ... the dog does not have the ability to choose whether or not they want them in there in the first place. But go ahead and disagree with me.

 

If you can't tell whether your own dog is comfortable or uncomfortable by observing your dog's body language and demeanor, then you won't be able to make a choice based on the dog's comfort level. Most observant dog owners actually can do this if they make half an effort.

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Do we know (I don't know, I am just asking) if Marq is planning on using contact lenses with his dog to continue to compete or if this was part of a "trying to figure out of the jumping issue is a vision issue?"

 

As far as I know from the posts on the Clean Run list, I believe they are just trying to figure out if it is a vision issue and if the contacts can/will help. I don't know that he has stated what his competition plans may or may not be. My understanding is that he posted the video so that those who are interested can observe the difference that the lenses have made in these "test" situations. For study, education, etc.

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If you can't tell whether your own dog is comfortable or uncomfortable by observing your dog's body language and demeanor, then you won't be able to make a choice based on the dog's comfort level. Most observant dog owners actually can do this if they make half an effort.

 

 

Really? Are you sure? If that's the case then why are there so many supposedly affected ETS dogs out there? Wouldn't the observant dog owner see the discomfort and stop? Oh wait, nevermind. I'm confusing observant and obsessive.

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I'll try one more time.

 

You're right. You [emphasis added] are the one making the choice for the dog. The dog does not have a choice.

 

Guess what? Anyone who does anything with his or her dog makes choices for the dog. When we train we make choices for the dog. How we train is a choice made for the dog. Doing stockwork is a choice made for the dog, no matter how driven the dog is to work stock. Same with Agility. Same with taking a walk. Same with what you are going to feed and when.

 

So, yes someone who uses contacts so an ETS dog can continue to do Agility is making a choice for the dog. That does not mean, by default, that it is a choice a bad one, or one that is harmful to the dog in some way.

 

If the handler bases the choice - to use the lenses or not - on the dog's body language and demeanor while they are being inserted and taken out, and while they are being worn, if the handler has half a brain, he or she can tell if the dog minds them or not. It's really not something that is beyond the scope of human ability.

 

We all make choices for our dogs every day.

 

Hope you enjoy your music.

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Really? Are you sure? If that's the case then why are there so many supposedly affected ETS dogs out there? Wouldn't the observant dog owner see the discomfort and stop? Oh wait, nevermind. I'm confusing observant and obsessive.

 

Right. Because the correct thing to do anytime one encounters an issue, challenge, problem, etc. is to quit right away. Failure to do so indicates lack of observation skills.

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