Early Takeoff Syndrome?

[juliepoudrier]

Ah, but be careful about exhibiting the effects of ETS--it could get you culled from the gene, er, working pool...

 

Mark,

Looking forward to seeing what Mark has to say.

 

Rushdoggie,

I don't have time to read the entire article right now, but the part you quoted seems to be referring to the mdr1-1delta mutuation, which of course can be life-threatening for dogs who have it and are exposed to certain chemicals. In that context (potentially life threatening), I don't think anyone would argue that efforts shouldn't be made to test dogs in order to prevent them from being exposed to potentially harmful chemicals and to reduce the incidence of that mutation in a gene pool, FWIW. (Of course the incidence is so high for collies that I think the only way breeders have been able to manage it is to reduce affecteds while keeping carriers.) I also think it's interesting that he points out that genetic diversity among breeds is a solution--that says to me that he advocates cross-breeding if needed to help increase diversity within one population (breed). I know a very few breeders have done this, but the purebred dog fancy certainly frowns on the practice.

 

J.

[Sue R]

After I can spend more time picking his brain on ETS I will provide a more accurate, more complete picture of how he views this project.

Really looking forward to reading about this. Thank you, Mark, for your efforts.

[PSmitty]

Well, I enjoyed the joke, Paula. I haz it, too.

 

Well, good. For a while, all I heard was crickets.

[Root Beer]

I don't know about you guys, but I believe I may suffer from Early Takeoff Syndrome. You know, when you want to Takeoff Early from work everyday? Yes, I haz it.

 

Well, Paula, I think that means you aren't suited for working and you had better stop at once. :lol: Let someone who has been bred for that purpose take your place and go do something that you enjoy more . . .!!!

[Rave]

Well, Paula, I think that means you aren't suited for working and you had better stop at once. :lol: Let someone who has been bred for that purpose take your place and go do something that you enjoy more . . .!!!

 

And of course, do NOT reproduce!!

[Journey]

I also think it's interesting that he points out that genetic diversity among breeds is a solution--that says to me that he advocates cross-breeding if needed to help increase diversity within one population (breed). I know a very few breeders have done this, but the purebred dog fancy certainly frowns on the practice.

 

J.

 

You crack me up Julie! Bold is mine, these two words in the same sentance are sacraligious to AKC.....I am not sure how far the Dalmation Club got with attempting to OC to Pointers, I quit paying attention to it.

[MrSnappy]

I am not sure how far the Dalmation Club got with attempting to OC to Pointers, I quit paying attention to it.

 

I don't know about the AKC, but the UK Kennel Club registered a backcrossed Dalmatian in 2010. The UK breed club(s are) is unhappy, apparently. And in fairness to the AKC, it DID register two backcrossed Dalmatians, and it was the Dalmatian Club of America that opposed that registration, and convinced the AKC to ban any offspring from those "hybrids."

 

Humans are just weird. Especially dog breeding humans.

 

RDM

[Journey]

I don't know about you guys, but I believe I may suffer from Early Takeoff Syndrome. You know, when you want to Takeoff Early from work everyday? Yes, I haz it.

 

Paula, did you self diagnose this? Have you sent in a cheek swab yet? Does it happen *all* the time or are there times when you stumble in in the morning? Have you sought professional help? Have you been wanting to catch tennis balls in your mouth

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I would expand that to say, "Companion animal breeders are especially weird."

 

I was on a natural cat raising forum briefly. It took maybe three visits to make me stabby.

[PSmitty]

And of course, do NOT reproduce!!

 

Heaven forbid!

[Mark Billadeau]

And we are fortunate that there are people who don't give up their willingness to see possibility where most think "it can't be done" or "that's useless".

Yep, these people determined that the newcomers needed to change their practices in order to preserve what had been there before.

[Mark Billadeau]

Mark Neff did not call. He said earlier that he's been very busy in lab during the days and writing (papers for publication and grant proposals) at night.

I will keep trying to talk with him and when I have more info I'll post.

[rushdoggie]

 

I don't have time to read the entire article right now, but the part you quoted seems to be referring to the mdr1-1delta mutuation, which of course can be life-threatening for dogs who have it and are exposed to certain chemicals. In that context (potentially life threatening), I don't think anyone would argue that efforts shouldn't be made to test dogs in order to prevent them from being exposed to potentially harmful chemicals and to reduce the incidence of that mutation in a gene pool, FWIW. (Of course the incidence is so high for collies that I think the only way breeders have been able to manage it is to reduce affecteds while keeping carriers.) I also think it's interesting that he points out that genetic diversity among breeds is a solution--that says to me that he advocates cross-breeding if needed to help increase diversity within one population (breed). I know a very few breeders have done this, but the purebred dog fancy certainly frowns on the practice.

 

J.

 

I think he was talking about any genetic marker, including that mdr-1 version thats related to health. I just thought it was an interesting perspective, esp the reference to the "popular sire" influence. I didn't post it to argue one way or another as far as ETS.

[rushdoggie]

You crack me up Julie! Bold is mine, these two words in the same sentance are sacraligious to AKC.....I am not sure how far the Dalmation Club got with attempting to OC to Pointers, I quit paying attention to it.

 

 

According to Jemimia at the PDE blog, the Dalmatian Club of America voted the LUA Dals in.

link

 

It wasn't even "Pointers," it was "one Pointer" and that was 17 generations ago. The dogs were 99.7% Dalmatian but didn't have the uric acid issue, and the DCA was more concerned with the possibility of "frosted spots" and hand-fluttery concerns that that SINGLE outcross 20 years ago could have introduced some horrible undiagnosed disease no one has ever heard of.

 

(I had a Dalmatian who I adored who died of kidney disease related to uric acid, so I have paid attention to this issue...)

[Journey]

According to Jemimia at the PDE blog, the Dalmatian Club of America voted the LUA Dals in.

link

 

Thanks for the link! Talk about an uphill battle...and to think *all* that was wanted was a healthy dog. Glad to see they finally succeeded in getting the LUA's in the gene pool.

[Root Beer]

Yep, these people determined that the newcomers needed to change their practices in order to preserve what had been there before.

 

Definitely not the people to whom I was referring.

 

Although I'm all for preserving what is good. My comment wasn't about changing people. Glad to be able to clarify.

[juliepoudrier]

I think he was talking about any genetic marker, including that mdr-1 version thats related to health. I just thought it was an interesting perspective, esp the reference to the "popular sire" influence. I didn't post it to argue one way or another as far as ETS.

I'm not trying to argue about ETS--just pointing out that his example was a health-related one, and because of the risk it poses to the dog, no one would argue against testing for it or trying to breed away from it. (He specifically mentioned collies and long-haired whippets, aka silken windhounds, in whom the mutation was introduced by crossing with a sheltie, which is where the long hair came from, and which implies that he means the mdr1 mutation.) The interesting statistic about collies is that only 20% of them are normal at both sites for the mdr1 gene. That's a pretty small group of dogs to work with, and I imagine in such situations outcrossing would be a wise choice. As with dalmations, it wouldn't require a lot of outcrossing to increase the number of clear dogs to some greater percentage of the population. Breeders could probably choose to cross with border collies to gain the genetic benefit, without straying too far from the "pure collie" they now have....

 

I think we see the popular sire effect acutely in conformation dogs. It think it also exists to an extent in working dogs, but with so many choices of good working dogs and so many people doing the choosing by looking not only at wins but also at the dog's work under a variety of conditions (vs. the latest fad that's winning in the show ring), it's a bit more self-limiting. (Well, unless you consider a popular sire like Wiston Cap. )

 

J.

[C Crocker]

Dr. Mark Neff had an interesting take on ETS; he places it in the same category as herding instincts and noise phobia (genetically linked behavioral traits). He didn't have much time to talk at noon but we should have more time tonight to discuss this and the other Border Collie research projects.

 

 

Thanks Mark, would like to know his opinions on this new subject. I heard Dr Neff speak at the USBCHA Sheepdog Finals he he does aoppear to be a thorough person.

[PSmitty]

I was scared to awaken this thread, but saw this video on FB this morning:

 

 

Apparently they are trying corrective contact lenses on the dog?

[Root Beer]

I saw that on the Clean Run list yesterday. It would be great if the solution were something as simple as contact lenses, which would also support the possibility that this is caused by a currently undetectable eye issue. Of course, that may or may not be the case, and such lenses may or may not help all dogs with the problem.

 

For anyone who is interested, the actual owner of the dog posted on the list along with his video. Apparently the canine opthamologist worked in conjunction with a human optometrist to create the lenses.

 

The dog owner points out that this study is not conclusive, and he does acknowledge that while the takeoff to the jumps is improved with the lenses, the takeoff to the tire is not.

 

In addition, this has not been tried in competition, nor with different lighting, nor on different surfaces.

 

This is the link to the site for the vet with whom the dog owner is working:

 

http://www.eyevet.com/

[Eileen Stein]

Many years ago -- at least 15 -- I had a friend (some of you may remember her -- Kay Pine) who had a nearsighted dog. Her ophthalmologist prescribed contact lenses, and the dog was fitted with disposable lenses and wore them for awhile. Ginger was able to spot sheep better with the lenses, as well as doing some things better in her everyday life. Interestingly enough, Kay was able to stop using the lenses (which were kind of a nuisance, as you can imagine) after a year or two and the dog retained a lot of the apparent benefits. I assume that once she learned that it was possible to see the sheep and other things that she hadn't seen before, she was able to mentally translate a fuzzy image into the real thing, or at least derive and integrate information from what she could see that she hadn't been able to before.

 

But this is not a new thing. It's always been possible for an ophthalmologist to do a refraction on a dog to diagnose or rule out myopia or hyperopia. I assumed this had already been done on the "ETS" dogs and no deficit had been found.

[Root Beer]

But this is not a new thing. It's always been possible for an ophthalmologist to do a refraction on a dog to diagnose or rule out myopia. I assumed this had already been done on the "ETS" dogs and no deficit had been found.

 

I don't know the extent to which testing has been done by Mecklenburg and her folks, so I can't say that it hasn't been. Based on what this handler posted, I don't believe he is working with Mecklenburg, but with this vet.

 

It is the first video I've seen of a comparison between an ETS dog without and with corrective lenses. Can't say it's the first time it's been done, though.

[Barefoot]

 

But there are people who consider things to be worthy of study even if those things are not life threatening.

There are also people who consider anything to be worthy of study if they can get the funding for it up frontand make a buck on the backside.

[mum24dog]

I was scared to awaken this thread, but saw this video on FB this morning:

 

 

Apparently they are trying corrective contact lenses on the dog?

 

 

Is agility really that important? (And I'm someone who lives and breathes the sport.) I'm quite disturbed by this.

 

A super competitive friend of mine has a dog that exhibits similar traits that haven't been able to be corrected completely by training - her solution? Let the dog be. She lives a perfectly normal dog's life without agility and you'd be able to hear her comments from over your side of the pond if it were suggested to her that her dog be fitted with contact lenses just so she could fulfil her own ambitions.

[Root Beer]

Is agility really that important? (And I'm someone who lives and breathes the sport.) I'm quite disturbed by this.

 

A super competitive friend of mine has a dog that exhibits similar traits that haven't been able to be corrected completely by training - her solution? Let the dog be. She lives a perfectly normal dog's life without agility and you'd be able to hear her comments from over your side of the pond if it were suggested to her that her dog be fitted with contact lenses just so she could fulfil her own ambitions.

 

I'd say that's a personal decision. One that is best determined by the handler.

 

Personally, I don't see contact lenses as that big of a deal. How many millions of people wear them? As long as the dog doesn't mind them, why be bothered with the fact that someone has their dog wear them to play a game? They're just contact lenses. Yes, it is unusual for a dog to wear contacts, but we are hardly talking about something that is really that extraordinary in and of itself.

 

If I had a dog that I had spent years training and the dog truly enjoyed the game, I don't think I would hesitate to try contact lenses if there were some issue and the lenses allowed the dog to continue to play. Of course, as long as I could readily afford them and the dog did not have an issue with wearing them or with having them put in or taken out.

 

Yes, some will be content to retire the dog. Others may want to continue - maybe for ambition, or maybe for the joy that playing the game brings to both dog and handler. If I needed contacts to read the numbers on the course, I would wear them. Would anyone really consider that to be a sign of inappropriate levels of ambition? While this is a new approach to an Agility issue, to me this seems like a very simple potential solution. I hope it works out for this handler.