Early Takeoff Syndrome?

[Blackdawgs]

Anybody able to hum the theme from "Twilight Zone"? I could try humming it but no one would recognize it if I did, no matter how hopeful I was.

 

Have you been tested for the bad hummer gene?

[Tea]

Here I'll hum it.......

 

 

 

ta da tad ta......

 

 

 

WAIT thats Gilligan's Island!

[rushdoggie]

In order to identify a genetic marker for an affliction one must first be able to clinically diagnose a dog (or a person) with the affliction. Once the marker(s) have been found treatment will still be dictated by a clinical diagnosis since having the genes won't necessarily indicate how badly one will be afflicted. Take for example CEA. We have the genetic test for CEA. It can identify those dogs affected, those that are carriers (only useful for breeding) and those that are normal (only useful for breeding). How badly CEA is manifested in the affected dogs ranges from blindness to "go normals" (no impact on vision) and this must be determined clinically not by a genetic test.

 

So the answer is no, there is no other reason to do a DNA study? That the only reason to do a DNA study is to identify a genetic marker for selection of breeding dogs?

[Root Beer]

If hope trumps science and medicine, there really is no need for a genetic marker, is there?

 

Did you know that there are people who appreciate the contribution of science and medicine to the well being of mankind (and dogs, of course) who also have hope. Pretty radical!

 

There are people who recognize the role that science and medicine play in our lives, yet still understand that there is a lot that we don't know yet and who know that there are still quite a lot of unexplored possibilities, whether those be in science, medicine, disciplines pertaining to dogs, etc.

[Root Beer]

.

[C Crocker]

I was very surprised at the idea that the majority of working folks really thought that if one denies that Border Collies aren't being bred for sport it isn't happening, and I wanted to make darn sure I understood that right before accepting it as fact.

 

Sadly we realize all too well that Border Collies are being bred for "sports dogs" at this moment in time.

[Mark Billadeau]

So the answer is no, there is no other reason to do a DNA study? That the only reason to do a DNA study is to identify a genetic marker for selection of breeding dogs?

For animal health I would say the main goal of performing a DNA study is to prevent the affliction if a genetic link can be found. I say this because once there is a genetic test animal buyers won't simply want to test to see if the animals they own have this affliction they will want breeders to prevent them from every having to own an animal with the affliction.

 

For human health the answer is different since we won't use the test to prevent a human genetic disease. If a genetically linked animal affliction is a good model for a human affliction; the animal affliction will be studied for more than just developing the test. These additional studies will involve finding how the genetic change causes the affliction and if this change can be modulated with drugs (used to reverse or slow the progress of the analogous human affliction). Research dollars and effort to find these drugs won't be spent for the animal affliction alone since it can simply be prevented by breeding choices using the DNA test; animal owners won't want to buy these drugs if the affliction can be prevented by breeding choices.

 

In the case of ETS I have not seen any suggestion of how this may be used as an animal model for a human disease. Perhaps Dr. Mark Neff will provide this when I speak with him (hopefully today).

 

 

[brndlbc]

Sadly we realize all too well that Border Collies are being bred for "sports dogs" at this moment in time.

 

I don't think you or I will live long enough to see it not happen...get over it. Move on. The Black Rhino and Giant Panda will disappear off the face of the earth long before the working border collie will.

 

This conversation has reached the point of nothingness.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Here I'll hum it.......

ta da tad ta......

WAIT thats Gilligan's Island!

Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale,

A tale of a fateful thread.

[skip a couple lines]

A member got mobile access and asked a question that day [yeah, I know, just sing really fast]

Thirty pages later

Thirty pages later!

 

I am amazed at the patience and willingness to keep on with this discussion, of the experts here on the Board in the fields of genetics, research, biology, and science in general. Thank you!

[juliepoudrier]

Move on. The Black Rhino and Giant Panda will disappear off the face of the earth long before the working border collie will.

And this is a good thing? It won't be changed so we should ignore it? How many black rhinos are left? Should people throw their hands up and say "Move on, there's no saving the black rhino"? How sad.

 

You don't need to answer this--it's OT anyway, but the world would be a much sadder place if everyone took this attitude toward change.

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Goodness. I'm with Julie. I have a condition with no cure. Sucks for me huh? Move on folks, nothing to see here, that's how the world crumbles.

[Mark Billadeau]

Years ago one might of heard.....

 

"The Cuyahoga is so poluted it's on fire; that's reality. Get over it; move on."

"The Peregrine Falcon and Bald Eagle are going extinct (because of DDT); that's reality. Get over it; move on."

 

We're fortunate that people chose not to accept "reality".

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

There's wishful thinking. That's ibased on an unrealistic view that results can occur without personal actions, or actions that are irrelevant to the actual outcome desired.

 

We were talking about "hope" earlier and I wanted to point out, this is the kind of "hope" that was in mind.

 

Then there's real hope. That's the expectation that my actions will have results. It's linked to faith, which looks for truth - hope acts on that. I see bald eagles all the time now in Chesapeake because enough people turned their belief system to understand that raptors are important enough to change their behavior.

 

The reality for me is that I'm both genetically predisposed, and permanently damaged. I can say, "Well, here is my little world, here is what I'm capable of. Lower my jump heights. Play NADAC cause it's easier. CPE anyone? Tunnelers?"

 

Or I can adapt, find out really creative ways to expand my world, find OTHER things that bring out my strengths, box this thing into something I can laugh at instead of letting it shape what I do.

 

Dogs don't have that choice. We give them jobs, then shape every interaction with that job at our pleasure. If they are lucky, we let them "end on a good note" that day.

 

Yeah. Okay.

[Diana A]

Years ago one might of heard.....

 

"The Cuyahoga is so poluted it's on fire; that's reality. Get over it; move on."

"The Peregrine Falcon and Bald Eagle are going extinct (because of DDT); that's reality. Get over it; move on."

 

We're fortunate that people chose not to accept "reality".

 

Very true. Although I don't think that 'accept the reality' necessarily has to mean 'give up and move on and do nothing'. It may just mean accept reality so you tackle the problem from a different direction. I guess I've accepted the reality of sport bred dogs (note I said 'dogs' not necessarily border collies) to the point where I can't realistically see any way that it will ever be prevented or stopped. The real question for me is that given the fact that dog sports are here to stay and that there will always be individuals trying to capitalize on that by breeding specifically for that market, what can the working border collie world do to preserve this unique dog in spite of that reality?

[Sue R]

The real question for me is that given the fact that dog sports are here to stay and that there will always be individuals trying to capitalize on that by breeding specifically for that market, what can the working border collie world do to preserve this unique dog in spite of that reality?

Take whatever opportunity presents itself to educate.

 

Breed responsibly. Sell responsibly. Follow-up your breedings and sales - don't repeat breedings with poor results; don't repeat sales that "go south"; know what your breedings produce.

 

Be a positive example in all that you do - working your dogs, training your dogs, keeping and maintaining your dogs, breeding/selling or purchasing.

 

Prove your dogs - as long as there are farmers, ranchers, and trialists who prove their dogs and make wise breeding decisions, sell dogs and pups as responsibly as possible, and take advantage of educational opportunities, there will be good working-bred dogs and people who benefit from their unique abilities.

[Mark Billadeau]

The real question for me is that given the fact that dog sports are here to stay and that there will always be individuals trying to capitalize on that by breeding specifically for that market, what can the working border collie world do to preserve this unique dog in spite of that reality?

With my background in research science and my roll on the ABCA health & genetics committee one thing I can do is educate people on how searching for and possibly finding ETS will impact our breed. I can also show my lack of support for this study being performed within our breed which the ABCA (largest registry of Border Collies) believes should be bred for work.

[C Crocker]

I don't think you or I will live long enough to see it not happen...get over it. Move on. The Black Rhino and Giant Panda will disappear off the face of the earth long before the working border collie will.

 

This conversation has reached the point of nothingness.

 

 

To brndlbc

 

I do not have a clue what you are tying to say with your statement. I was replying to another poster who commented that working Border Collie people seem to be in denial to those who chose to basterdize the breed by searching for other traits besides those which contribute to working stock. I was agreeing with that poster that "we" with working Border Collies are well aware of the sports breeding going on right now. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

That said, I have nothing to "get over". I have working Border collies, bred to do what they do. I have no fear my dogs wil end up another breed. I do believe one of main arguments in this thread is the fear that the breed can be changed to another if care is not taken in one's breeding program. If you think it can't be done, watch any AKC dog show on tv and take a look at your "Black Rhino", their version of the Border Collie.

 

You get over it.

[PSmitty]

I don't know about you guys, but I believe I may suffer from Early Takeoff Syndrome. You know, when you want to Takeoff Early from work everyday? Yes, I haz it.

[Mark Billadeau]

Dr. Mark Neff had an interesting take on ETS; he places it in the same category as herding instincts and noise phobia (genetically linked behavioral traits). He didn't have much time to talk at noon but we should have more time tonight to discuss this and the other Border Collie research projects.

[Journey]

Thank you Mark. Looking forward to the updates.

[rushdoggie]

Dr. Mark Neff had an interesting take on ETS; he places it in the same category as herding instincts and noise phobia (genetically linked behavioral traits). He didn't have much time to talk at noon but we should have more time tonight to discuss this and the other Border Collie research projects.

 

Interesting. I too will be looking forwards to hearing what he has to say.

 

I googled Mark Neff's name and found this article, which I thought was interesting:

 

Deconstructing the Gene Pool

Just a snippet:

 

JB: Should breeders genetically test their breeding stock, and if so, how should they apply the test results?

 

MN: Breeders have it hard—when they make decisions, they have to consider what’s good for the breed, their bloodline and individual dogs. If the mutation frequency is high in the breed, like it is with Collies and Long-haired Whippets, testing and selective breeding is certainly worthwhile to reduce the frequency and decrease the breed’s risk of drug sensitivity. In a breed where the mutation is relatively rare, such as the Old English Sheepdog, the owner might test only those dogs that are scheduled for treatment with one of the interacting drugs. But it gets complicated when a single breeder’s bloodline is heavily affected; breeders cannot give up their entire breeding stock, so a more gradual approach must be taken. What a breeder should do really depends on the specific situation.

 

I certainly believe that eliminating mutations from gene pools requires greater debate. Many scientists have suggested that a mutation should be removed from a gene pool gradually so as to preserve genetic diversity in the breed. I think ulterior motives are sometimes at work, as this is most strenuously advocated by service laboratories that offer these kinds of tests. DNA tests should be targeted for obsolescence—ultimately, a mutation should be eliminated from the gene pool, which of course renders the test meaningless. Don’t get me wrong—there is enormous value in preserving genetic diversity across breeds, but most of the diversity in one breed exists in related breeds, so conservation genetics within a breed is not a critical issue. I’m certain that far more genetic diversity is lost from “popular sire” effects and line breeding than from adherence to DNA testing.

[Root Beer]

Years ago one might of heard.....

 

"The Cuyahoga is so poluted it's on fire; that's reality. Get over it; move on."

"The Peregrine Falcon and Bald Eagle are going extinct (because of DDT); that's reality. Get over it; move on."

 

We're fortunate that people chose not to accept "reality".

 

And we are fortunate that there are people who don't give up their willingness to see possibility where most think "it can't be done" or "that's useless".

[Mark Billadeau]

After I can spend more time picking his brain on ETS I will provide a more accurate, more complete picture of how he views this project.

[MaryP]

I don't know about you guys, but I believe I may suffer from Early Takeoff Syndrome. You know, when you want to Takeoff Early from work everyday? Yes, I haz it.

 

Well, I enjoyed the joke, Paula. I haz it, too.

[Rave]

I don't know about you guys, but I believe I may suffer from Early Takeoff Syndrome. You know, when you want to Takeoff Early from work everyday? Yes, I haz it.

 

Me too!! Are we related?