Early Takeoff Syndrome?

[brndlbc]

And it only took 24 pages.

 

[Rave]

All the answers to our questions are on a forum, from which we cannot even copy information. Apologies to Dr. Mecklenburg, but when the information is out of the silo where I can sort through it at my own brain damaged pace, I'll consider ETS from a scientific standpoint.

 

Until then, I'm just seeing a lot of US Cleanrun people saying, "What a marvelous new outfit the emperor is wearing today!"

 

uhh anyone can join the list. don't slam anyone for using proper internet protocol, sheesh. Here's the list, go join and read:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CleanRun/

[Root Beer]

Until then, I'm just seeing a lot of US Cleanrun people saying, "What a marvelous new outfit the emperor is wearing today!"

 

OK, if that's how you interpret "there is more information available, and this is where you can go find it" . . .

 

If Diana, or anyone else, is interested in reading the additional information that was not published in the magazine, it is pretty easy to gain access to the forum to read it.

 

FWIW, I would not copy your posts from this forum to another without your permission, any more than I would copy anyone else's posts from another forum here. Aside from the fact that I try to follow the rules of any forum of which I am a member, I consider that to be common courtesy.

[rushdoggie]

Until then, I'm just seeing a lot of US Cleanrun people saying, "What a marvelous new outfit the emperor is wearing today!"

 

Some pages back, someone got indignant at me because when I suggested that the way to approach people who you want to reach with your POV is not to insult them and no one here would say anything dismissive or insulting. Maybe you feel you are only addressing agility people who are already on this list, so you don't need to temper your remarks accordingly, but I'm sure you are aware that the posts here on BC Board can be read in any Go_gle search.

[Root Beer]

. . . but I'm sure you are aware that the posts here on BC Board can be read in any Go_gle search.

 

Another very valid reason to refrain from copying posts that I don't have permission to copy. Although I still put courtesy at the top if that list.

 

However, directing people to the forum in which those posts can be found is certainly not against the rules. Anyone who is interested has the link to the forum, courtesy of Rave, and post number. A ton more info can be found by searching "ETS" on there.

[Diana A]

Hi Diana,

 

If you are interested in more information, Linda Mecklenburg posted a response to the exact thoughts that you are expressing, on the Clean Run yahoo list.

 

I can't copy her post here because that is against the rules of that forum, but if are interested in what she has to say on this, check out Post #46461 on that list.

 

Based on your comments, I think you would find that particular post informative. It does contain information that is not included in the magazine article.

 

I guess my issue isn't so much with the work Linda has done with particular dogs to say THOSE dogs have an issue. My concern is once they start a genetic screening process to identify the gene, they ask for A LOT of samples from people, and you're going to get loads of people 'self-diagnosing' their dog as ETS who proabably are not going to be nearly as thorough about determing the real issue. That seems to me it would clutter the information to the point of being practically useless.

[rushdoggie]

I guess my issue isn't so much with the work Linda has done with particular dogs to say THOSE dogs have an issue. My concern is once they start a genetic screening process to identify the gene, they ask for A LOT of samples from people, and you're going to get loads of people 'self-diagnosing' their dog as ETS who proabably are not going to be nearly as thorough about determing the real issue. That seems to me it would clutter the information to the point of being practically useless.

 

As I understand it, you have to send in video and have the video evaluated, probably just to avoid that.

[Root Beer]

I guess my issue isn't so much with the work Linda has done with particular dogs to say THOSE dogs have an issue. My concern is once they start a genetic screening process to identify the gene, they ask for A LOT of samples from people, and you're going to get loads of people 'self-diagnosing' their dog as ETS who proabably are not going to be nearly as thorough about determing the real issue. That seems to me it would clutter the information to the point of being practically useless.

 

That is definitely a very valid concern.

[Mark Billadeau]

Here are a few questions for you to answer for yourself. I do not expect or want your answers posted here but I would like to consider them.

 

Do you want the working instincts preserved in Border Collies as a breed (or care if they are preserved)?

 

Can these instincts be preserved by breeding for other pursuits other than working livestock?

 

Do you want the genetic diversity (i.e. coefficient of inbreeding) preserved within the gene pool of those dogs with the working instincts?

 

How will the increasing percentage of Border Collies bred for other pursuits, within the total population of the breed, impact the ability to preserve the genetic diversity of those dogs with the working instincts?

 

As more Border Collies are bred for other pursuits will the ever increasing numbers of those pups impact the ability of working breeders to find homes for all their pups thereby impacting their willingness to breed (or at the extreme leave them with unwanted pups)?

[Diana A]

Here are a few questions for you to answer for yourself. I do not expect or want your answers posted here but I would like to consider them.

 

Do you want the working instincts preserved in Border Collies as a breed (or care if they are preserved)?

 

Can these instincts be preserved by breeding for other pursuits other than working livestock?

 

Do you want the genetic diversity (i.e. coefficient of inbreeding) preserved within the gene pool of those dogs with the working instincts?

 

How will the increasing percentage of Border Collies bred for other pursuits, within the total population of the breed, impact the ability to preserve the genetic diversity of those dogs with the working instincts?

 

As more Border Collies are bred for other pursuits will the ever increasing numbers of those pups impact the ability of working breeders to find homes for all their pups thereby impacting their willingness to breed (or at the extreme leave them with unwanted pups)?

 

I totally agree with you. I have seen it first hand. Agility is really big in my area and people deciding to breed their agility dogs to each other is running rampant here. Also there are some big name sports breeders who sell agility bred dogs for premium prices and I have seen several in my area flock to those people for puppies, then later decide to breed them. And I have seen quite a few of those dogs on sheep. Some of them aren't even interested. Most of those who are interested don't have much ability to do anything with them. There are a few that are okay, but not outstanding. There are some agility breeders who keep going back to working dogs for their breeding stock, but their breeding decisions aren't based on how well the dog works stock so even though those dogs in the first generation could actually be trained to be decent stockdogs, it will only end up going downhill eventually. It is actually hurting border collies to have these few who DO work well because it just makes everyone think breeding for agility is okay and you really can have both things.

 

However, the original intent of the thread I guess was debating the usefulness of a genetic test for a syndrome that is not very well defined. I don't agree with breeding border collies for agility, but that doesn't mean that I can't have an opinion on the technical merits of trying to develop genetic screening for something that is so likely to be misdiagnosed. I think saying that we shouldn't bother with the test because it has technical issues is going to make more sense to some people than to say we shouldn't bother with the test becuase we don't agree with what it would be used for (breeding agility dogs) when the person we're talking to doesn't share our views in that regard. Whether or not the activity that the test will be used for (breeding agility dogs) is something we think should even be done is a separate issue from discussing the technical merits of the test itself.

 

Don't forget that many breeds other than border collies show this syndrome (I think I read somewhere earlier in these posts that it is actually most common in shelties?). And if the test did have merit, and people came to working breeders for their agility dogs (which we're saying they should do rather than breeding them themselves) then they would want that test since the parents would never have had to demonstrate their ability to be good jumpers so there would be no other way to know they were avoiding this problem. So maybe if this test was any good and actually got developed, having it would make it easier for people to buy from working breeders since they wouldn't be worried that the working lines might have ETS hidden in them and no way to tell since the dogs are not required to jump. The few people I do know who get agility dogs from working lines still want all the tests (hip check, eye test, etc) and the lack of these tests actually steers them away from working breeders and to the sports breeders who will run every test known to man. I do know a couple people who started off looking at working lines, got frustrated with the lack of testing, and convinced they would get a puppy with health problems without those tests, so ended up buying from sports breeders who could provide health clearances up the wazoo. So if this is a real syndrome that can be tested for genetically, having this test goes both ways - it allows people to breed agility dogs, yes, but it also might provide more assurance against bad jumping from working lines and help sway some people to buy working bred instead of from sport breeders.

 

And bottom line is people will continue to breed agility dogs whether or not there are tests available that make it easier to do it successfully. I let people know my views on this every chance I get, but the thing is that most of them see all these very successful agility-bred dogs around and their answer to your first question about preserving working instinct would be that they don't really care one way or another, and they would rather buy a puppy from parents proven to be good agility dogs than risk an unknown by buying a puppy from working stockdog parents. A bunch of words and talking at them won't change that. The only thing that would change their view point would be if they got involved in real workings dogs and came to value those qualities, and that is highly unlikely that many would get involved to that point when they already put so much focus and time on another activity.

[Mark Billadeau]

Don't forget that many breeds other than border collies show this syndrome (I think I read somewhere earlier in these posts that it is actually most common in shelties?). And if the test did have merit, and people came to working breeders for their agility dogs (which we're saying they should do rather than breeding them themselves) then they would want that test since the parents would never have had to demonstrate their ability to be good jumpers so there would be no other way to know they were avoiding this problem.

Would a puppy buyer be willing to pay for this test prior to purchasing a pup from a working breeder or would they expect the working breeder to test for this?

 

If a working breeder starts testing for everything (like some non-working buyers want) is that breeder breeding for the working market (or working ability) or for these other markets (this would be especially true for a test specific for jumping)?

 

Are you not now getting into that slippery slope of breeding for something other than work when you start adding in choices that will impact the marketability of your pups to these other markets?

 

The slippery slope

If I test for ETS I can inform sports buyers on the possible future of my pups in agility.

If the sire I am looking at is affected by ETS I know I will loose that market for my pups. I wonder if I should select a different sire?

[juliepoudrier]

However, the original intent of the thread I guess was debating the usefulness of a genetic test for a syndrome that is not very well defined.

 

This point has actually been brought up repeatedly in this thread (the difficulty in diagnosing, how misdiagnosing will muddy the waters of the genetic research and so on). Perhaps it got lost in all the side discussions, but it has been noted, a lot.

 

I don't agree with breeding border collies for agility, but that doesn't mean that I can't have an opinion on the technical merits of trying to develop genetic screening for something that is so likely to be misdiagnosed. I think saying that we shouldn't bother with the test because it has technical issues is going to make more sense to some people than to say we shouldn't bother with the test becuase we don't agree with what it would be used for (breeding agility dogs) when the person we're talking to doesn't share our views in that regard. Whether or not the activity that the test will be used for (breeding agility dogs) is something we think should even be done is a separate issue from discussing the technical merits of the test itself.

 

And every time these reservations (technical difficulties with the test) have been brought up, the stock answer has been that LM has certainly thought of that. If the conversation on this thread (not any other forum) is any indication, folks don't want to think about the implications of the technical issues involving developing such a test; instead they just answer, "I'm sure LM has already considered that." You can't have a discussion about the technical merits that way. Some of us have tried.

 

J.

[Tea]

When we had young horses that jumped fast and flat and we wanted to change the bascule or take off point. We did Gymnastics. A set of fences in a row that with distances and shape and placing poles taught the horse to use himself better.

[Northof49]

A friend of mine has a little border collie cross that stutter jumps. She has been tested up her ying yang to determine what is going on. It most certainly is NOT a training issue - she has done all sorts of foundation jump work and it hasn't helped. She has been tested for the usual eye problems and nothing. She will also put her head down so that her nose is almost touching the ground when coming to the bottom of the dog walk and the Aframe and slow down.

 

With some of these dogs, they also stutter step and scramble going up and down stairs, as well, which can't be blamed on poor agility training. As an agility Judge I have seen dogs stutter jump in various places and talked to their handlers. The first thing I thought of was either depth perception or near sightedness. All that I have talked to has taken the problem seriously and ruled out physical issues, jumping issues, etc. Unfortunately, since none of the dogs that I know work on stock, I have no idea if it would affect that as well.

 

As we all know, our eyesight changes over time, and it is possible that what is happening with the dogs that exhibit it later one, instead of when they are puppies. It may not end up being a genetic problem, but more like diabetes and heart problems, etc that we say "run" in our own families.

[Diana A]

Would a puppy buyer be willing to pay for this test prior to purchasing a pup from a working breeder or would they expect the working breeder to test for this?

 

If a working breeder starts testing for everything (like some non-working buyers want) is that breeder breeding for the working market (or working ability) or for these other markets (this would be especially true for a test specific for jumping)?

 

Are you not now getting into that slippery slope of breeding for something other than work when you start adding in choices that will impact the marketability of your pups to these other markets?

 

The slippery slope

If I test for ETS I can inform sports buyers on the possible future of my pups in agility.

If the sire I am looking at is affected by ETS I know I will loose that market for my pups. I wonder if I should select a different sire?

 

 

I think that is up to each breeder's integrity and how each breeders weighs breeding choices. Breeding choices and testing choices may not be the same thing (do you breed based on test results, or do you breed based on work and then just add on the testing to make some of the buyers happy). I think most buyers would expect the breeder to pay to test the parents, but then on the flip side, agility people are used to paying more for a dog so those costs could probably be passed on.

 

If the breeding is done with the intent to market agility pups then it probably is already in trouble as there probably are other compromises already being made.

 

If you really like a particular breeding from a WORK perspective, but know the cross might produce some percentage of ETS-affected dogs, then you are no worse off (from an agility marketing perspective) than not doing the test at all; buyers will shy away from an unknown potential of a problem just about as much as a known problem. If you are really dedicated to breeding for work but know the cross that you think will produce terrific working dogs may produce affected pups, then you'll just resign yourself to the fact that you may need to work a little harder to place any leftover pups that don't go to working homes. They can just as easily go to a pet home, flyball home, or obedience home, or maybe you keep them and get a bit of training on them and sell them as older dogs. I think that is the choice most breeders here would make, to just do what is right for the work. The better the cross is from a working perspective probably the higher chance they'll all go to working homes anyway.

 

I'm not advocating such a test as being necessarily useful or feasible to develop - just saying if such a thing came about and they actually got a good test out of it, it may not necessarily be all bad and work only in one direction to encourage more breeding for agility. It could actually in a round about way be beneficial to working dogs. Once it becomes commonly accepted in the agility community that this ETS syndrome is out there, that it can't be identified without putting the dog through advanced agility training, and that it sneaks up on a young prospect and shatters people's hopes for a promising young dog, such a thing is going to cause more people to avoid the working lines because they have no assurance one way or another about any jumping issues in those dogs. So bringing ETS to the attention of the agility buying community can have a bad effect on working bred dogs and cause an increase in breeding of dogs for agility as the market for 'proven' dogs will increase. Having the test could put things on more even footing to where there is at least a way to prove that a non-agility dog doesn't have the problem, for those breeders who choose to do so. Those who don't sell much to agility homes probably won't bother. Those who do rely on the agility homes to allow them to breed more often may want to consider the test.

 

It is also that same old arguement (and I don't know that there is an easy answer) - that many would prefer if all border collie buyers came to working breeders for their dogs and they were never bred for any other purpose (my ideal world), but then on the other hand, those other buyers want all these tests and if you do all these tests are you falling down that slippery slope of breeding for other things than work by trying to satisfy the needs of non-working buyers? Yet if you refuse to do those tests to satisfy those other buyers, then they still want a dog and they'll find one elsewhere, which creates more of a market for sport-bred dogs from breeders who will play that markeing game and test for everything while breeding away from working ability. I guess that is a question each breeder has to struggle with. I certainly can see both sides of it, and if there was a test for something only related to agility, I'm sure that there would SOME breeders who might change SOME of their breeding choices as a result - trying to decide between Sire A and Sire B (both good dogs) and finally choose Sire B because Sire A is an ETS carrier or affected. Maybe no harm done if both dogs are otherwise equally good. But what if Sire A is the outstanding work dog and Sire B somewhat more mediocre? Maybe some will still choose Sire B because he is 'good enough'. Maybe others will go look for Sire C who may or may not be as good as Sire A. I can certainly see the potential for harm from those types of decisions. I guess the question is weighing that against the harm caused by other ways of doing it (not doing the test, not selling to non-working homes and maybe breeding less as a result, etc). Like I said, I don't know the answer, I think it is just alot more complicated than saying a test geared towards agility dogs is automatically going to encourage an increase in the breeding of agility dogs.

[C Crocker]

I'm starting to see that the difference between the working folks and the sport folks has far less to do with dogs than I ever would have thought.

 

 

It has everything to do with the dogs--the working Border Collie dog.

[Tea]

All I know is this.

 

I am standing on the bones of the shepherds and the dogs they bred for work.

[Mark Billadeau]

Like I said, I don't know the answer, I think it is just alot more complicated than saying a test geared towards agility dogs is automatically going to encourage an increase in the breeding of agility dogs.

I don't think it will increase the breeding of dogs for agility but it would be a tool specifically for the breeding of dogs and marketing dogs for agility. Which is why I am not for studying the possible genetic links of ETS.

[Northof49]

One thing that I would really like to see is those dogs with apparently ETS worked on stock, and see if there is any noticeable problems there. As well, as we know in Exercise Induce Collapse in Labrador Retrievers, it was traced back to one particular sire that had been use so extensively it was hard to find a pedigree without him in it at least once.

 

If there is a genetic component to ETS OR if it is not genetic but something that "runs" in certain lines, then it would be interesting to see if that is a result of more line breeding, etc in those particular lines, that are being bred for sports dogs. Just like TNS and CL is found in australian show lines.

[Root Beer]

When we had young horses that jumped fast and flat and we wanted to change the bascule or take off point. We did Gymnastics. A set of fences in a row that with distances and shape and placing poles taught the horse to use himself better.

 

We do something like that in Agility to train better jumping. They are called jump grids.

 

Susan Salo, who came from the horse world, developed a foundation jumping program based on the concept that you describe. It's fabulous.

 

Dogs who are considered to have ETS are put through extensive training with jump grids (among many other things) before the determination is made that the problem is likely ETS. For some dogs with jumping issues, jump grids take care of the problems. Those dogs are not considered to have ETS. In those cases, the problem was a training issue.

[Root Beer]

It has everything to do with the dogs--the working Border Collie dog.

 

It has a lot more to do with perception of reality.

 

If one is unable to acknowledge the fact that people are, in fact, breeding Border Collies for sport, that this is a reality, because he or she holds that Border Collies should only be bred for work (which is a position that I hold myself), then the difference has nothing at all to do with dogs. Not even Working Border Collie dogs.

 

And if one equates recognition of that fact with advocating the practice, then that is also a difference that has absolutely nothing to do with Border Collies.

[Root Beer]

Here are a few questions for you to answer for yourself. I do not expect or want your answers posted here but I would like to consider them.

 

Do you want the working instincts preserved in Border Collies as a breed (or care if they are preserved)?

 

Can these instincts be preserved by breeding for other pursuits other than working livestock?

 

Do you want the genetic diversity (i.e. coefficient of inbreeding) preserved within the gene pool of those dogs with the working instincts?

 

How will the increasing percentage of Border Collies bred for other pursuits, within the total population of the breed, impact the ability to preserve the genetic diversity of those dogs with the working instincts?

 

As more Border Collies are bred for other pursuits will the ever increasing numbers of those pups impact the ability of working breeders to find homes for all their pups thereby impacting their willingness to breed (or at the extreme leave them with unwanted pups)?

 

My answers to these questions would probably surprise because they are probably much more in line with your answers than you would think.

 

At the same time, there is absolutely nothing about acknowledging the reality of an Agility issue, and recognizing that study has actually been done on the issue, and that there is more to learn about the issue, has absolutely nothing to do with my answers to those questions.

 

If ETS is a reality, then it exists. If it exists, study will help those who have dogs with the issue to make better choices for their dogs. I am not going to pretend that isn't the case because there are people who will use that information to make breeding choices that I don't support.

 

If you want to increase the numbers of Agility enthusiasts who are purchasing Border Collies from working breeders, get the working breeders to market to Agility enthusiasts. That's about the only way that's likely to happen. I know that's a totally different topic, and we have talked about it before and that it's a no-win proposition since working breeders who market to Agility homes would be, in a sense, breeding for Agility.

 

But seriously, it's as if everyone who participates in Agility is just supposed to magically know that working breeders, the very existence of whom many of them are not even aware, are being left with unwanted pups because they aren't purchasing their Agility dogs from them. If that's the case (that's the first I've heard of it), then there are ways, other than denying the possible existence of ETS, to get those puppies sold to good Agility homes.

[Mark Billadeau]

..... study will help those who have dogs with the issue to make better choices for their dogs.

It will help an owner choose to retire their dog from agility, aid in purchasing an agility dog, and aid in making breeding choices. A genetic test has little added value for the owners with dogs already showing symptoms (clinical diagnosis is all that is needed to assess for affected dogs). A genetic test is highly valuable for the making purchasing choices and in making breeding choices (genetic tests are needed to assess for carriers); neither of which will impact those who already have dogs with jumping issues.

 

Just because something IS doesn't mean I have to accept that it is RIGHT (in the best interest of the breed) or shouldn't be denounced.

 

The AKC IS and accepted the Border Collie (reality) but does that mean I need to be complacent about its practices and philosophies?

[Eileen Stein]

It has a lot more to do with perception of reality.

 

If one is unable to acknowledge the fact that people are, in fact, breeding Border Collies for sport, that this is a reality, because he or she holds that Border Collies should only be bred for work (which is a position that I hold myself), then the difference has nothing at all to do with dogs. Not even Working Border Collie dogs.

 

And if one equates recognition of that fact with advocating the practice, then that is also a difference that has absolutely nothing to do with Border Collies.

 

I really have trouble understanding this new theme of yours.

 

NO ONE is unable to acknowledge the fact that people are, in fact, breeding Border Collies for sport, that this is a reality. Haven't you noticed that we have been talking about agility breeders? That is because we acknowledge that there is such a thing as agility breeders. People breeding for agility, which is a sport.

 

And no one equates recognition of that fact with advocating the practice. I recognize the fact that there are people breeding for agility. I've recognized it throughout the discussion, and I just recognized it again in the preceding paragraph. Yet no one has presumed, from my recognition of the fact, that I advocate the practice. Why would they? They are in touch with reality, so they are able to see that my every word and action shows that I do not advocate the practice.

 

You seem to be trying to manufacture some defect in perception and reasoning on the part of "working folks" -- some disconnect with reality on our part which "has nothing at all to do with dogs," and which discredits us as compared with the clear-seeing sport folks. I don't know if you're succeeding in persuading others that working folks have this defect, but apparently you think it's worth the effort to try.

[Root Beer]

It will help an owner choose to retire their dog from agility

 

Not necessarily.

 

The owner might choose to run in a venue that does not involve as much jumping, like NADAC, where there are whole classes without jumps and only one class really has a lot of them.

 

The owner might choose to drop the dog's jump height if that makes a difference for that dog, and run in a class that allows for that.

 

The owner might choose to continue to play, but know that the dog is going to knock bars a certain percentage of the time and go in without unrealistic expectations for the dog.

 

The owner might choose to participate in the new venue that is done by video, so that he or she can just submit runs where bars are not dropped.

 

There might be other ways to compensate for the dog's limitation of which nobody is aware yet.

 

ETS dogs don't drop every bar every time. It's not a mandate that the dog must get out of Agility. Contrary to popular stereotype, most Agility participants are not title crazed "get a Q at all cost" machines who must immediately throw away any dog who has any kind of problem that limits his or her ability to succeed in a conventional way in Agility.

 

Just because something IS doesn't mean I have to accept that it is RIGHT (in the best interest of the breed) or shouldn't be denounced.

 

If ETS is a condition that is beyond the dog's control, it is neither right nor wrong. It is what it is. Noise phobia is neither right nor wrong. It simply is what it is. You can choose to let it control what you do with your dog, or you can get creative and find ways to make it work.

 

The AKC IS and accepted the Border Collie (reality) but does that mean I need to be complacent about its practices and philosophies?

 

Accepting that the Border Collie IS and choosing to include the Border Collie as a recognized breed within AKC.

 

AKC does not hold that the Catahoula doesn't exist. They simply don't recognize it as a breed within their organization.

 

And I wouldn't say that anyone has to be complacent about the practices of any organization. But being complacent is not denial that the practices and philosophies exist within that organization. And yes, I would say that one should know and understand a reasonable amount about the practices and philosophies that one actively opposes.