Recall

[brady's mom]

Brady and I have hit a horrendous obstacle: the Recall Plateau (although it's more like the Recall Nose Dive). My dog used to be brilliant in our recall work. He responded to 'Come' about 80% of the time, and those moments when he didn't, I would correct him by 'reeling' him in with long line (so he was never self rewarded with refusal/ignoring me). And then, my parents happened. :| My mom has had dogs all her life, but they've never been border collies (nor have they ever been trained in the manner that I've been training and working with Brady) so she'll repeat herself a good five times without enforcing the command. Brady thinks this is absolutely hilarious and therefore does not respond. Usually he just wanders around the backyard blatantly ignoring her until I come out and force him inside, where-in he begins to pout (god forbid, I ruin his game). The same goes for my sister, she'll say 'Come' three times and then get frustrated and ignore the issue (or she'll whistle at him, when he doesn't know what that means because I can't whistle, lol). So, where I once had a dog who was beginning to develop a very good recall, I know have a stubborn, self-reinforced border collie adolescent who has decided 'Come' means "yeah, okay, I'll get to you on my own time...which is never." I think I'm going to have to go to an entirely new verbal cue and put the value back into recalling back to me. I tried reversing the whole mess and just reinforcing my initial command, but he'll have none of it--the progress is just not there, not even in baby steps.

 

And it's highly embarrassing at the dog park to have a dog who does not call off when you ask him to, even though you KNOW he knows what it means and is just choosing to give you the cold shoulder.

 

So, any ideas as to how to put the value back in recall? Right now, I'm trying some of Susan Garrett's game ideas, but I was just wondering if there were any other equally effective ways to go about this without having to go to a class.

[Liz P]

Use a different command like "here" and enforce it 100% of the time.

 

How old is Brady? If he is an adolescent you will need to be even more strict with him. On the way to the gate of the park he must walk politely on lead and obey all commands. I ask my dogs to do a series of downs, sits and recalls before they are allowed to run free. It is a reminder that the park is a treat and must be earned.

 

Once in the park, if he doesn't obey a command he goes back on a line. If he disobeys commands 3 times in a row, he leaves the dog park and gets walked on lead around the human trails. While walking on lead around the trails he must respond to commands. If he obeys perfectly he might just get to go back into the dog area for a little while.

 

I've been known to drive up to the park then never get out of the car because the dogs start to bark and refuse to settle on command. In those cases we turned around and went right home.

[sixx]

Right now, I'm trying some of Susan Garrett's game ideas, but I was just wondering if there were any other equally effective ways to go about this without having to go to a class.

 

This.

 

Susan Garrett's recall games are brilliant! I too had to change Seek's "come" command... terrible two's??

Her new command is "quick" but I don't use it in a real setting yet, just in training. I want to proof it 100% before using it in real situations. Not sure what games you are trying, but the Brilliant Recall course by SG is great:

 

Good to play in a big area (fenced in field or a yard)

 

Have someone hold your dog.

Get the dog pumped up "ready, ready!"

Stand about 5 feet away with a tug toy (hidden) and face away from your dog.

Look back at dog, say new "come" command, dog gets released. Just as Brady gets to you show the toy and play a game of tug, party time!

Repeat.

Increase distance away from dog.

Repeat game.

Then change it up. When dog gets to you, run away and then play tug.

repeat.

Change it up again. After releasing dog immediately run (don't wait for him to get to you), when he catches up, game of tug is on!

Repeat.

 

I like to change the steps up a bit to make it interesting, and to keep Seek guessing what will happen. It's a blast, Seek loves it, great exercise for both of us, good bonding as well as a SOLID RECALL

 

Good luck!

[gcv-border]

No new advice - just reinforcing what has already been suggested.

 

Unfortunately, you may be experiencing a double whammy. Brady may have hit his bratty adolescent stage (in which he will test you) at the same time your mother and sister have become 'involved' and are not treating him with consistency.

 

Good Luck.

Jovi

[Root Beer]

If you want to try something really different, you could check into Pam Dennison's Training the Whistle Recall.

 

The nice thing about that is that you could keep the whistle for yourself so you could preserve its value. You could also train a new verbal cue at the same time, as you go along.

[rushdoggie]

One of the best ways to reinforce a recall cue is to use the Premack principle: give the dog what he really wants instead of a more traditional treat. For example, if I call Argos in when hes intent on a squirrel, and he comes, I reward him by releasing him to chase the squirrel again. If you are at the dog park, and he comes, release him to go play again.

 

Brady may have decided that its more fun to play than any kind of reward you have offered. Change it up, offer REALLY stinky treats in a jackpot now and then, let him go to run around again, whip out a frisbee when he comes.

 

Finally, I know this doesn't fall into the positive reinforcement training arena exactly, but if I have a dog who I am confident understands the recall cue in many environments, and he chooses to ignore my cue because there is something he would rather do, I will "walk him down."

 

This does not involve being angry, or physical corrections aside from taking his collar when I do eventually reach him, but is somewhat aversive in nature because its a pressure thing.

 

Generally, most dogs I have trained a recall never need this, but occasionally I will get an adolescent or particularly independent adult who will at some point decide that whatever they are engaged with at a certain moment (the squirrel that is a tantalizing 12" out of reach, the favorite neighbor kid who he adores, some forbidden dead thing he has found) will trump whatever I might be offering for a recall (and I reward with a treat or favorite toy at least 75% of all recalls, and sincerely pet and praise the rest often rewarding with a release to return to what he wants all the rest) and a "walk down" will remind him that despite being rewarded, its not really optional.

 

A "walk down" is always followed by a bunch of opportunities to recall again and all recalls are very heavily rewarded.

[Olivia]

I was wondering if, when you retrain your recall with your new word, you could keep it to yourself and not share it with your mom or sister? You could let them keep using the old word. I know my dogs have a couple of different recalls. We have the generic call that just means "all dogs head this way but you don't have to actually come right to my feet" that I use when off leash walking. We have the specific dog "you need to pay attention and quit doing whatever you are doing and head this way but you don't necessarily have to come right to me" again used when walking. And we have the official recall that means "drop what you're doing and come immediately to my feet and wait for further instructions". I don't let other people use my official recall because I'm pretty sure they won't reinforce exactly what it means so if they want to know how to call them I tell them one of the more generic words that work fine but doesn't have such a strict criteria. They can still call the dogs but there is no chance of ruining my word!

 

Good luck! All the above posts are great advice!

[Lewis Moon]

Some really great advice up there ^^.

 

Cerb is at the bratty adolescent stage too. A couple things I do:

 

I’ve added a hand sign (pointing down to his heel spot). This seems to put an exclamation point on the recall.

 

If I can wait until there is a break in what he’s doing, I’ll recall him then. Failure… well, fails. I can’t stress this enough. Avoid it and use a bit of patience. This is also a great training tool.

 

I try to keep eye contact with Cerb as he is running back in. My inattention is often matched by his.

 

This is where I may depart from canon: I don’t require blind obedience. This is not to say I let Cerb do what he wants, it just means I let him have some “input”. If there’s a great smell on the way back in, I don’t get pissed if he stops for a couple of seconds. Sometimes after a particularly long sprint after the ball on a hot day, he’ll stop to chew on the ball and take a blow for a few seconds. That’s OK. He’s a smart dog and gets interested/distracted somewhat like a kid might. I want a partner not an automaton.

 

Also, does your pooch “do context”? Cerb seems to know when he needs to be at my side NOW (snakes, I’m not happy, etc) and when it’s OK to amble. This is a fine line to train but he seems to be doing it well.

[brady's mom]

Thank you all for the great advice!

 

@Liz P -- Brady'll be 11 months in about a week. I'm pretty sure we've hit the surly teen stage, he was never like this until very, very recently. As a younger pup he was willing and overeager to obey (sometimes he'd get so excited he'd just chain five commands together even when you weren't asking for it, lol). And I think it would be good for him to learn that the dog park is a treat instead of just a routine--I really, really don't want to be THAT dog owner, if you know what I mean. The one who has to call their dog five times to get them to even turn their head, or the one that is completely ignorant of their dogs' actions.

 

@sixx -- I love all the recall games she has! I'm going to work on that one with him and use it try and build up the value in running back to me, and BEING with me. We have worked her "It's Yer Choice" game, and he does well with it, but I haven't tried it out in an open area with other distractions yet.

 

@Jovi -- yea, :/ I'll be moving back out in about 9 months or so, but that's still 9 months of them trying to help and 9 months of me having to go back and fix everything, lol. And thank you for wishing me luck!

 

@Root Beer -- Thank you! I will definitely look it up! I wish I could whistle without having to own a whistle, but alas, it isn't in the cards, lol. I've always thought it looked really sharp when dogs would recall to a whistle.

 

@rushdoggie -- Hmmm, I might have to try that, put some pressure on him by kind of entering his space. Usually that's how I get him to go back inside after he ignores my mom, but sometimes he sees it as "LOL CHASE THE PUPPYYYYY~!" when he knows better (I swear he knows how to push every single one of my buttons!). How do you prevent that sort of reaction?

 

@Oliva -- Definitely something I'm going to do. That way he knows that when I give the command, he knows I mean it. I feel like that would give me more control over the situation.

 

@Lewis Moon -- Hand signals! I haven't been training as many non-verbal cues as I should, and maybe that's why his recall has regressed so badly; I never had one for recall. I'll definitely incorporate one this next round, to reinforce the command and to start reminding MYSELF that non-verbals are just as important as verbals. Brady "does context" to a point--mostly in cases of extreme emotion on my part. If I'm obviously unhappy, mad, or upset then his reaction is immediate, but he's still learning (or is just a little thick headed)the subtleties of my moods. For the most part he thinks I should be as tough as he is emotionally and should definitely not be terrified of the spider on my arm and therefore he will come back to me when he feels like coming back to me, lol. However, if there is a strange dog near me, his reaction is immediate--he's fairly protective/gets concerned when I'm in "stranger danger."

 

Thank you all again for offering such great advice!

[bn_here_b4]

Walking down the dog... Can be effective, but I really put myself in a pickle trying to do this with my golden retriever. We have about five acres and keep half that mowed. Bella was in the mowed part and wouldn't come. I started walking toward her - calmly, but persistently. She would let me get close and then trot away, but I was a little closer every time. Oh boy, I was really doing it, just like I read about... I felt like some kind of cool right up to where I realized I was so focused on what I was doing that I had allowed her to lead me straight through a poison ivy patch at the edge of the unmowed treeline.

 

I itched for days.

[rushdoggie]

Walking down the dog... Can be effective, but I really put myself in a pickle trying to do this with my golden retriever. We have about five acres and keep half that mowed. Bella was in the mowed part and wouldn't come. I started walking toward her - calmly, but persistently. She would let me get close and then trot away, but I was a little closer every time. Oh boy, I was really doing it, just like I read about... I felt like some kind of cool right up to where I realized I was so focused on what I was doing that I had allowed her to lead me straight through a poison ivy patch at the edge of the unmowed treeline.

 

I itched for days.

 

 

Oh poor you.

 

Walking down the dog is tougher if its a huge area. Its tougher to stay calm when you are tired and highly annoyed, its tougher physically and it takes way longer. Ideally, this happens the first time in a reasonable sized open space like a regular sized backyard.

 

And to reiterate, it is only appropriate if the dog has a solid recall taught, generalized to many environments, and if you are certain he has heard you.

[rushdoggie]

@rushdoggie -- Hmmm, I might have to try that, put some pressure on him by kind of entering his space. Usually that's how I get him to go back inside after he ignores my mom, but sometimes he sees it as "LOL CHASE THE PUPPYYYYY~!" when he knows better (I swear he knows how to push every single one of my buttons!). How do you prevent that sort of reaction?

 

 

Walking him down simply means you calmly, without anger, go get him. He zigs left, you turn left and follow. He zigs right, you calmly march right. He may think this is a game! but usually pretty quickly the realize its not a very fun game, you are not in play mode. You simply persevere and walk after them. At some point they will give up. If they stop and you reach them, you can gently take them by the collar and lead them indoors. If they give up and come to you, you can quietly praise.

 

The last time I did this was with my puppy when he was about 10 months old. I had worked a recall with him for about 6 months in many places, with good outcome. He was pretty much getting rewarded every single time I called him from the backyard. It was 5 pm, I let him out to pee while I was cooking and when I called him in he turned and looked at me, then went back to watching the squirrels who were extra active and shaking the tree branches. I called again, again he looked right at me and then turned his back. I called my husband to mind the food on the stove, slipped on my yard shoes and walked him down. It took 15 minutes. Eventually he gave up, came running to me and sat at my feet. I praised him quietly and petted his head. I released him and he stuck like glue to me back into the house. The next time I let him out he came flying in and I took him to the fridge and gave him some cheese (a much bigger sized piece than he would normally get). I haven't been ignored since.

 

The other day, he almost got a squirrel. It was running the fence line and it slipped and fell down onto the grass, and barely made it up and onto the fence again before he was there. It was 6:20 AM, and I was standing in the yard in my bathrobe. He was so excited he started to bark, and because it was early and I wasn't thinking, I called him (I didn't want him being noisy so early in the morning). He came! I was so shocked that when he got to me I took him by the collar and then let go and sent him back after the squirrel for a reward. No cheese in the world was gonna be better than that!

[Root Beer]

@Root Beer -- Thank you! I will definitely look it up! I wish I could whistle without having to own a whistle, but alas, it isn't in the cards, lol. I've always thought it looked really sharp when dogs would recall to a whistle.

 

I believe that one of her whistles comes with the DVD. They are super nice. I'm actually not a huge whistle fan, but I love the one I got from her.

 

I'm about to start the whistle recall training with Tessa. She's getting confident now and she definitely needs a good, solid long distance recall.