Good Lesson Today

[Keegan's Mom]

Just wanted to post about Keegan's good lesson today. He is settling in nicely these days.

 

Good things:

 

I got him to start settling into a good pace today. He usually crowds the sheep right past me and the sheep we were using today were pretty light. However, he managed to keep good pace today.

 

Also, he likes to flip flop when he is stressed instead of coming straight in behind the sheep (he doesn't have much eye). Today we worked on this behavior and got him settling in nicely without flip flopping and without pushing the sheep.

 

I can call him off the sheep now without dragging him away. He comes off willingly. This is a huge accomplishment for us. He is minding me much better when around the sheep.

 

He had some GREAT outruns today (small but good). His flanks are looking really great - when he wants to do them...which leads me to the bad.

 

Things we need to work on still:

 

He has to get it out of his system, so to speak, and will crash in when he fist gets released for an outrun. After his first burst of badness (not a word, but you get my point), I call him off the sheep and send him on another outrun. Second time is beautiful almost always.

 

Any tips on breaking this bad habit, busting in on the sheep first chance he gets?

[Sue R]

Rachel - I'm so glad to hear that training is going well for you and Keegan! I'm going to be brave and stick my neck out here (I was going to be a coward and do a PM instead) but maybe this will help get a dialog going and get folks who actually know what they are talking about to contribute to the thread.

 

First off, Rachel, what does your trainer say about these issues at your lessons? He/she should be your first source of information - that's what you pay for when you take a lesson.

 

I'm a novice, too. I see that different trainers seem to have different "takes" on certain things, and differing approaches to "solving" problems.

 

But...the trainer I admire most would (I believe) say this problem was due to lack of confidence - the dog's confidence in itself and/or in its handler. I think that, in the first outrun of the session, that lack of confidence is coupled with the anticipation of starting the work, and that makes an incorrect response by the dog to be more likely.

 

Are you still working in a round pen? If not, I think you need to avoid the situation that provides the "fear" or pressure that encourages this result on your *first* outrun of the lesson. In subsequent outruns, provide your dog with the freedom to make a mistake and be prepared to correct it in a timely manner. This is *strictly* my opinion.

 

You may even find that you need to work on your approach into the training field with your dog, before you ever set up to work the sheep, if your "entrance" into the field is contributing to the build-up of excitement and allowing the dog to behave inappropriately beforehand. Remember how we learned at Rebecca's that the training begins before you ever set foot in the training field/pen?

 

I believe "flip-flopping" behind the stock is often what a dog without power, confidence, or proper pace does (and I've got a prime example here in my Megan). The development of confidence and improved pace (along with reading the stock better) may help reduce or solve this issue. It sounds like you are making improvement on this problem already.

 

Now, I am only a novice and so my "advice" is worth only what you're "paying" for it! Best wishes, and glad to hear you are so happy with Keegan's (and your) progress!

[Nancy O]

Also, he likes to flip flop when he is stressed instead of coming straight in behind the sheep (he doesn't have much eye). Today we worked on this behavior and got him settling in nicely without flip flopping and without pushing the sheep.

The flip flopping can be caused by several things:

 

When the dog is too close to it's sheep it has no place to go and starts flip flopping. Try and lay the dog down, move the sheep forward so there is space between the dog and sheep and then ask the dog to walk up again.

 

The handler is not moving and therefore the sheep have no where to go: Lay the dog down, move the sheep forward and then put space between yourself and the sheep. Ask the dog to walk up as you move backwards, so the sheep have somewhere to go.

 

Dog doesn't have much power and has trouble moving it's sheep: use sheep that move easily away from a dog to build the dog's confidence.

 

For busting in on his sheep on his first outrun. First I would look at your corrections for the first outrun. Knowing that he has this problem, you need to be ready to correct him when he is doing the first outrun and not allow him to continue to do it incorrectly over and over again. I did have a dog like this, he got taken out, did one outrun, corrected on his first outrun, got put back in his crate, worked other dogs, came out again and did another outrun, got corrected again.... you get the picture. He may have done 5-8 "first outruns" each day. He is now running Open successfully and can outrun 650 yards.

 

Nancy O

[Keegan's Mom]

We fuss at Keegan when he charges in. I call him off and take him for another outrun...does just fine the second time. So other than fussing at him, I've not tried anything else.

 

However, I might add this is an accomplishment of sorts. I used to not even be able to walk into a training pen without him blowing me off and charging in...had to keep a leash on him. Now I can walk in and around the pen with him at my side and no leash.

 

He does lack confidence and has little power and eye. Would a packed pen work for these issues?

 

Nancy - I had the same idea about putting him up if he is going to blow through the sheep. I actually think this will work for Keegan. I plan to try it next time we are out. At least now Tess will be able to work (her eye should be healed).

[Pipedream Farm]

Rachel,

 

What is Keegan's attitude when you first go into the field to work? Are you being dragged out or is Keegan paying attention to you or at least thoughtful as opposed to frantic to start? I had issues with Jody on her first contact to the sheep at the start of sessions and when I adjusted how I expected her to behave going out to work; her initial contact improved.

 

Try a session of anything physical earlier in the day to take the edge off a hyper young dog.

 

Mark

[Keegan's Mom]

I bet doing something physical would help too, thanks Mark.

 

His attitude, up to about 2 months ago, was all about the sheep and I didn't exist (so frantic to start)...at first. He then realized I exist after yelling at him for blowing through the sheep. Now he is mindful of me when we walk into the training field.

 

He used to blow through the sheep on a regular basis while working...this had almost stopped completely...just have the problems with the initial contact.

[Pipedream Farm]

With Jody I noticed a marked improvement in her attitude when I changed how we entered the field.

 

She used to go out to collect the sheep and then would blow me off about the lie down at the lift. I tried running through the sheep to enforce the down but things didn't change much for that first contact.

 

Now Jody goes in off lead but must stay with me as we go to set-up. At first this meant a lot of standing still while I waited for her to come back to my side and/or having her drag a long line and me stepping on the line when she surged ahead. I established in my mind a perimeter around me that I allowed her to be within; once outside that perimeter I waited for her to return.

 

I noticed that when she started waiting on me while heading out to the sheep; she started to listen to me at the first contact with sheep.

 

Mark

[Shoofly]

How long are the outruns you're talking about?

 

When he blows through, does he want to chase the sheep, or does he just bust the sheep up and then calm down and put them back together?

[Keegan's Mom]

Robin - I am very bad at guesstimating distances...but I would estimate no more than 30 yards (Laura if you are reading...please correct me if I'm wrong).

 

He seems to want to bust the sheep up then calmly collect them to me. However, I haven't been letting him collect them...I immediately call him off and we redo the outrun.

[Carson Crazies]

Sounds about right Rachel.

[Nancy O]

Rachel,

 

if the dog is busting in at only 30 yard outrun, then I don't think the dog understands how to get to the other side of the sheep correctly.

 

Normally I wouldn't take a dog and put it up, but the dog I was refering to in my above post was outrunning 250 yards well, EXCEPT, his first outrun.

 

If your dog is busting in at only a 30 yard outrun, then you might want to get between the sheep and the dog to start, so you can correct it if it starts to bust up the sheep.

 

A packed pen can be good and bad. You have to be careful that the sheep you are using don't turn on the dog, this will make the dogs confidence even worse.

 

Nancy O

[Shoofly]

Rachel - Nancy pretty much said what i was thinking too. With a dog that is a little less confident, i'm not sure taking him away from the sheep will help, it might even make him more worried. I think taking a step back and helping him be right on the first outrun would be a better choice and help his confidence.

 

I like using a packed pen but only under very strict methods. When i have people out for a lesson and have a dog that i think will benefit from doing it, i handle the dog myself, on leash and am *extremely* careful about what happens and how things are done. There is tremendous potential to do harm in that small space. That said, it can be a wonderful tool and i like using it with underconfident dogs.

[Keegan's Mom]

OK - but if he *knows* how to do an outrun at 30 yards, but ONLY does the first one incorrectly...is that really the same thing as he doesn't know what I'm asking him to do?

 

I don't present myself any differently during that first outrun than any other outrun?????

[Shoofly]

He's probably wound up since it's his first contact with the sheep that day. And he might even be getting in the habit of "getting it out of his system". Better to step back, shorten up and make sure the first outrun goes well to set a new pattern in his mind and get a nice successful start in.

 

It's possible in his mind he can relax after that first nerve-producing outrun is out of the way, after he blows off some steam by diving in. Regardless of why he does it, since you know he has that tendency, make it easier and successful for now when he does his first one. If he's going to get in the habit of something, best to make it a good one rather than a bad one.

[Deb Mickey]

Here's my 2 cents, for what it's worth.

 

My Annie had a similar issue in that she'd either lie down at the top and look at the sheep or she would come crashing in at the top, split the sheep apart, smartly put them back together again, then bring them to me. What I think her problem was is she didn't know how else to move the sheep - she had no finese.

 

With help of many on these boards and elsewhere I started to help her learn how to move standing sheep. Here's what I've been working on:

 

I have her push a large flock through a stall door. The sheep are resistant to go in and with there being so many sheep it's hard for the sheep to squeeze through the doorway. Annie has to work to move the sheep into the stall, tuck in any escapees, and keep her cool while doing it. I have her push them into other areas they don't want to go - over shallow streams, under overhanging, dead trees, etc. I also have her push them tightly into the corners of the field, lie down, then calmly flank to take them out of the corner. Any place where the sheep would be resistant to move. When I first started with this I positioned myself so she was basically fetching the sheep to me, but as she got better I stood back and had her drive the sheep. What I hope she's learning is she can move sheep without all the speed and craziness of diving in.

 

I also do stall work (yes, ya do need to be careful ), having her calmly flank around the flock but I also have her walk them into a corner, come as close as she can to them and relax. I soothingly stroke her and sometimes pick her up and put her on the sheeps' backs (thanks, Carla!).

 

There's differing opinions on verbally correcting a dog when it's diving in, but in our case I stopped correcting and said nothing feeling our case was more a confidence issue and correcting Annie would just make her more unsure.

 

All this has seemed to help. In our last 5 trials her lift was much better (no diving in!!!) and she seems more confident overall.

 

Just me 2 cents... Good luck!

[Keegan's Mom]

I have been told not to holler when he busted up sheep...to try that. That worked for the "every-once-in-a-while-when-stressed-bust-up".

 

He settles in nicely close to the sheep; however, I have not given him much opportunity to take the sheep off the fence...we just never get in that situation.

 

Thanks for the advice...there is a lot to think aobut and work on.

[kimkathan]

For what it's worth....

 

My young dog used to to the same thing, lie down for the first setup, start out, and then blow through the sheep, just to be able to gather them up again. The other outruns were then just fine after that.

 

An English dog trainer recommended to me only to work for 5 min at a streatch and then walk off, go do some barn chores or something, and then go back out for another 5 min, til all my chores were done, or I just decided we were done for the time. I did this for a week, ONLY 5 min training sessions multiple times in say an hour. By the end of the week, she didn't do it anymore. His reasoning was that I'd go out to work for extended periods of time, and the dog knew that even if she busted through we'd keep working, she just might get a growl or something. By working in short periods, she didn't know when it was all going to end, and "got to work" right off the bat.