blue merle pink nose?

[juliepoudrier]

Geonni,

I think you're wasting your breath. The argument that there is a real lack of decent working merles, let alone exceptional working merles seems to be lost on DemonPuppy.

 

DP,

I don't know how else to say it. If there are few to none exceptional working merles, please explain how one would go about breeding working merles, other than the obvious, which would be to breed non-exceptional to non-exceptional. That's the whole point. No one is arguing that merles should be cut out of the working dog gene pool because of their color--the point is there are few of them in the working gene pool and even fewer of those who are breed worthy. So to choose to breed for merle would by default be deliberately breeding dogs that tend toward mediocrity instead of exceptionality. Tell me how that helps the working gene pool?

 

Of the three open handlers I know who have merle dogs I can speak to the breeding of only one. And as far as I know he hasn't reproduced himself. Apparently you would argue that he should continue to be bred so we don't lose that all-important merle coloration, regardless of the working ability of his progeny. Since merle is dominant, one could assume that if the other dogs capable of working or trialing to something akin to an open standard were producing lots of good pups, then the number of good working merles would be on the increase. And who knows, maybe there hasn't been enough time for that phenomenon to register with those of us who are intimately involved with working dogs. But I doubt it.

 

But apparently the words and experiences of the working dogs folks on this forum are meaningless to you. So be it.

 

J.

[geonni banner]

Actually, Geonni, I disagree. Merle is different. There's a hazard there that's not present for, say, red. Google "lethal white border collie" or "lethal white australian shepherd". "Lethal white" is a shorthand for a double-merle dog. You will see many rescues devoted to saving these dogs. As the Amazing Aussies rescue in Arizona says, "Lethal Whites can only result from a merle to merle breeding, but not every puppy in the litter is a (MM) white. Statistics indicate that approximately 25% of the litter will be homozygous pups. The pups may show signs of deafness, blindness or a combination of the two, however it should be noted that some pups with this gene can hear and see. Those pups are the lucky ones. The defects can vary from minor vision and hearing loss to complete deafness and blindness. Double merles can also be born without eyes, or eyes that have failed to develop properly." Our local rescue here in southern California has a hard time finding homes for these dogs. And as long as that trait is present, double merle puppies will be born. There are just too many idiots in the world.

It's all true, I've seen it with rough Collies. In that breed there are two kinds of whites. Double dilution merles and self-colored whites (like white GSDs) Any of the old time breeders would tell you never to breed merles together, or if it happened accidentally the pups should go "in the bucket." Nowadays you see merle-headed whites, touted as "exotic." Genetically they're just merles. But people will breed them, get defective pups and blame the "white gene." You can breed tri-headed whites or sable-headed whites (just extremely-marked white-factored tris & sables) and get no problems. But since the Collie has no purpose in life anymore except to star in movies and shamble around the breed ring people like to play the color game. Go figure. As you say, stupid is common.

 

ETA - in my previous post re: the hypothetical top-quality working merle, I wasn't picturing a dog that was the product of a merle-to-merle breeding, and I sure as heck hope he would not be used on merle bitches!

[huskerdog (liz)]

Even if there are some successful merle working dogs, I do not think there are many, and I believe that the breed of border collies has much more to lose than win by perpetuation of the merle gene. It is just a coat color after all. Unusual coat colors present a huge attraction to puppy millers. But in this case, it's not just a color. There are serious health and life quality risks to puppies when merle x merle breedings occur, and sadly I don't see a future without some foolish, ignorant, or greedy humans who, purposefully or not, victimize dogs. It's just not worth it for the sake of a color. This gene we do not need.

 

I understand what you mean - but the merle gene is out in full force now. I'm up for education and promotion of good breeders regardless of color, but I don't expect to be able to change people's minds about a color just because I offer my opinion. If they are going to go merle, the least they can do is buy from a responsible breeder.

[Sue R]

I understand what you mean - but the merle gene is out in full force now. I'm up for education and promotion of good breeders regardless of color, but I don't expect to be able to change people's minds about a color just because I offer my opinion. If they are going to go merle, the least they can do is buy from a responsible breeder.

In my experience, the "merle gene is out in full force now" only applies to pet and sport breedings. With only a very, very few merles that compete at the Open level (and even fewer of them at all *successfullly* at the Open level), I am not sure what you mean by "in full force". And it would be hard to gauge how many farm dogs that might be merle are actually of quality because a lot of dogs can look good on the home front, but really still be very limited in their ability and breeding-worthiness.

 

And, yes, if someone is going to insist on having a merle, is refusing to consider a rescue, then finding a responsible breeder is key - I'm wondering if they even exist or if they do, just how often are pups available and who do they sell them to, and are there restrictions (like NB status). Another issue entirely.

[mum24dog]

you go outside and stand in the sun dressed all in black and see how you prefer it to being dressed in a lighter color.

 

So this Bedouin woman has got it wrong?

 

http://www.egyalleys.com/images/bedouin1.jpg

 

Or, simply touch the fur of a black dog that's been in the NM sun compared to a merle whose been out in the sun.

 

You can do that on my b/w JRT - black is hotter, but he doesn't suffer from the heat at all, nither does our b/w BC.

 

who is panting soonest? Who is going to shade the soonest?

 

Our short coated ginger dogs. The long coated ginger one is fine in the heat.

 

I have said my concern over and over: Why breed against a color without good reason? Why allow the fashions of the sport dog world influence the breeding choices of real stock dogs? Why limit the gene pool unnecessarily? Why not simply breed for the best?

 

Whilst I think your reason for preferring merles is flawed, I fully understand your logic. Whether there are many good working merles around is irrelevant.

 

It's been said on other threads that a breeder of working dogs might take a view on using a dog that doesn't stack up 100% healthwise if the risk to offspring is minimal and its working ability is good enough. It's not as if there aren't plenty of other options but it's still done.

 

And ironically, for a board where it is a principle that colour doesn't matter, there is a lengthy current thread all about what colour someone's pup is going to turn out to be. I think that is an unhealthy obsession with superficialities.

 

BTW I don't like the look of merles at all. Would I have one if it was otherwise the right dog for me? Very probably.

 

Pam

[juliepoudrier]

Whether there are many good working merles around is irrelevant.

 

How is it irrelevant? DP is arguing that merles are more suitable for work because of their coloring. They are only more suitable if they can actually work up to some standard in the first place.

 

Now if the work being referred to is flyball or agility, well, there are a gazillion merles in thos venues, and it's likely some are doing quite well there, but that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

 

As for color discussions, we all have our preferences, but when push comes to shove in the working world many of us do turn a blind eye to looks in favor of ability (or potential ability when looking at a pup). If looks were all that mattered, I wouldn't have my coming two year old youngster. Not the look I like at all....

 

And FWIW, my first dog as an adult was a merle rescue. He died last year at age 17. I don't dislike the color. I dislike the attitude that advocates for a special color at the expense of working ability, and of course the explosion of candy colored dogs marketed to folks for whom color *is* the most important consideration.

 

J.

[mum24dog]

How is it irrelevant? DP is arguing that merles are more suitable for work because of their coloring. J.

 

No she isn't.

 

She believes (probably wrongly) that merles are better able to withstand desert conditions, which is a different issue from working ability.

 

She has asked a hypothetical question as to why, if as claimed on here, colour doesn't matter, a deliberate decision should be made to exclude a merle dog if it is a good worker from being bred purely on the grounds of its colour.

 

There was no need for this -

 

But apparently the words and experiences of the working dogs folks on this forum are meaningless to you. So be it.

 

That's just the sort of often aimed barb that drives less thick skinned people away.

 

Are the opinions of the few "working dog folks" on here really representative of the working dog world as a whole? How are we to know? If they are, how did it come about that those in the US seem to see themselves as the guardians of the breed when here, where it originated, we don't seem so rigid? Does everyone care so much about Open titles when planning to get a dog to do a specific job?

 

It is a universal problem with all boards such as this - you have to remember that it is a bubble maintained by like minded people. It doesn't mean that everyone, even within the same field of interest, agrees with its ethos.

[juliepoudrier]

I said that the OP is arguing that merle dogs are more suitable for work in hot conditions because of their coloring.

 

Mum24dogs replied:

No she isn't.

 

She believes (probably wrongly) that merles are better able to withstand desert conditions, which is a different issue from working ability.

 

 

 

Mum24dogs,

This is a direct quote from DP:

I live in the dessert. I value the lighter coloring because there is a distinct advantage when working in the direct sun. [emphasis added] Breeding against that lighter coloring for dogs that are consistently more heat stressed doesn't seem wise to me. The lighter merle coloring is a valuable trait, in my area. Other people live in different climates where a black dog isn't at a profound disadvantage. But, if you limit the gene pool to those dogs that are dark colored, you limit their usefulness.[emphasis added]

 

Granted, maybe the work she's talking about is not stockwork, but anyone reading those words could rightly surmise that she means stockwork since that's the work these dogs do, and surely commenting about usefulness wouldn't apply to sports/games, since usefulness doesn't really apply in that context.

 

And she's claiming that people are breeding *against* merle coloring without understanding, apparently, that you can't really breed against something that's just not there in the first place. If the breeding criterion is based on choosing exceptional (or at least superior or useful at more than just the most basic chores at home) working dogs (as it should be, though I think we all realize that plenty of breeders fall short of that goal), then the numbers just don't work. Trying to breed for working merles would then means deliberately choosing to breed merle dogs *regardless* of their working ability. That's the only way to increase their numbers. So while she (and others) interpret that as breeding against the merle color, it's really the choice not to breed *for* merle, because the lack of exceptional working merles makes it virtually impossible to do so, unless one is willing to breed from dogs who haven't proven themselves exceptional workers. You simply can't have it both ways.

 

Are the opinions of the few "working dog folks" on here really representative of the working dog world as a whole?

 

I guess that depends on how you define "working dog world as a whole." Since we interact with, import dogs from, and invite stockdog people from the UK over here, I think it's not so difficult to get a good idea of what working dog folks, at least in your part of the world, think. Aside from one well-known breeder of candy colored dogs who exports to the US, no one sees working merles being shipped over here in droves. Shepherds who started their working lives in the UK and now live here don't claim that there are all sorts of working merles being overlooked there (or here). And honestly, if merles were popular as working dogs in the UK then ISTM they would have greater representation in the working gene pool there (after all the dog we know and love was developed there), right?

 

 

..how did it come about that those in the US seem to see themselves as the guardians of the breed when here, where it originated, we don't seem so rigid?

 

Well, this is a US-based forum and so we speak from our own perspective. We are the guardians of the working-bred dog here in the US. And you are speaking from experience as a user of working dogs? See my comments above. If the working dog folks in the UK aren't nearly so rigid, and since merle is a dominant gene, why aren't there working merles all over the place in the UK? And even if you don't believe that trials are a good assessment of quality working dogs (per your "open titles" comment below) the fact remains that you just don't see merles to any great extent on the trial field in the UK. I guess all those farmers and shepherds are just leaving their best dogs at home because they'd be embarrassed to run a merle in public.

 

Does everyone care so much about Open titles when planning to get a dog to do a specific job?

 

I don't think anyone has said open "titles" (there is no such thing as an open title) is a requirement for getting a working dog. AFAIK there aren't working merles hidden in barnyards across the UK either. I know there are a couple of folks in the UK breeding and/or working merle dogs, but it would seem (from simply looking at dogs being sold/trialed in the UK) that merles don't exactly occur to any great extent in the working population, which has been the point being argued all along. I don't understand why folks can't seem to get that point. If they don't exist to a great extent then statistically they are *not* going to exist in any great extent. And trying to increase their numbers means compromising on other things, namely working ability, because I think we all understand that if there were merles out there who were truly awesome working dogs, folks would breed to them (because the work really is most important thing) and the numbers of good working merles would increase in the general working border collie population. That doesn't seem to be happening.

 

As for your comment about my "barb" I've been participating in these same discussions for more than a decade. And they always follow the same pattern. Some new person comes along and declares that the rest of us--those actually using these dogs for the purpose for which they are intended--have it all wrong. Others will try to point out where their reasoning is flawed, and still others will appoint themselves as defenders of the poor beleaguered poster who's being treated badly by those mean working dog people up on their high horses. I always start out nicely, but there comes a point, like now, when it's clear that folks want to argue for the sake of argument, that they're making arguments from a point of little or no experience, and that they refuse to believe what folks who have more experience have to say. If such folks are turned off by stating the obvious (that they don't want to hear what doesn't fit their paradigm), then there's no help for that.

 

J.

[bcnewe2]

How bout some of those rescues from TX? Didn't I see merles in that group?

[Sue R]

I think you may have seen lots of merles in that group, if I recall correctly.

 

I have to agree with Julie, whose arguments are (as always) pretty sound and reasonable. And I don't think it's an "us versus them" sort of discussion/argument, so much as a point of view discussion/argument.

 

I have been trying to find a study that I read about once, concerning dog coats, color, and temperature - and, of course, can't find it. The interaction of coat color and body heating by radiation (in direct sunshine) is not a simple issue because it is also affected by coat texture, length, and other factors (like activity levels and conditioning).

 

The study indicated, though, that longer coat length confers a certain level of insulation. That means that while the surface of a black dog might feel quite a bit hotter than that of a white dog (or white parts of that largely black dog) in the sun, it is the temperature near the skin that is important, and that may be quite different from the temperature of the coat surface.

 

Also, that coat color (like black) not only means that differing levels of radiation (heat from sunshine) are being absorbed but also that differing levels are being re-radiated.

 

Back to the Bedouin example, the tents of desert Bedouin are often black, made from the hair of the goat. That would seem particularly uncomfortable in hot, sunny weather but I think they are double-layered. The outer layer absorbs but then re-radiates much of the heat from the sun, and the intermediate air layer provides an insulating layer, much like a dog's coat might do.

 

I know that I can't stand wearing dark colors in warm sunshine - but there is a difference between heat transferral due to sun on a tee-shirt on bare skin and due to sun on a coated dog. Sounds like this could be a fun research project for someone.

 

Just some random musings brought about by this discussion. Now, back to our regular programming...

[geonni banner]

This whole thing of the thermal dynamics of coat colors is interesting to me. As others have remarked, black dogs seem to vary widely in their ability to tolerate heat/sunlight, as do dogs of other colors.

 

I remember reading about the surprising choice of black clothing by many desert peoples, and discussions about why they choose black cloth to wear in the blazing desert sun.

 

So I went hunting for information about this. Some of the stuff is more relevant than other stuff, but the last one seems most interesting to me. (web page addresses are included for those of you who want to read more.)

 

http://www.nba.com/nbafit/dressforheat.html

"…individuals wear a variety of colored clothing. The color of the fabric often arises as a concern or question, specifically black versus lighter-color tones. Does dark colored clothing provide an increased thermal load? While darker colors absorb more heat and demonstrate a higher surface temperature, this does not always result in a hotter human. A warmer fabric surface can reduce the heat transferred from incoming radiant heat waves and may reduce the transfer of heat (heat penetration) through the clothing material. Furthermore, when the clothing is worn loosely, the hotter fabric surface temperature is limited in its transfer of heat to the skin (conductive heat transfer) due the limited contact time. As a result, the literature does not support a thermal preference for fabric color.”

http://www.mcdonough.com/writings/new_geography.htm

“The Bedouin tent, for example, shows how simple and elegant-how suited to locale-good design can be. On the move in their migratory rounds, the Bedouins needed shelter that was both portable and reliable in a variety of conditions. On the plains of the Sinai, temperatures often rise above 120 degrees Fahrenheit. There is neither shade nor breeze. But the black Bedouin tent of coarsely woven goat hair provides a breathing membrane. The black surface creates a deep shade while the coarse weave diffuses the sunlight, creating a beautifully illuminated interior. As the sun heats the dark fabric, hot air rises above the tent and air from inside is drawn out, in effect creating a cooling breeze. When it rains-as even in the desert it sometimes does-the woven fibers swell, the tiny holes in the fabric close, and the structure becomes tight. The tent is lightweight and portable and can be easily repaired; the fabric factory-the goats-followed the Bedouins around, providing valuable wool while transforming the botany of the desert into horn, skins, meat, milk, butter, and cheese. When the tent wears out, it can be composted, returning nutrients to the precious soil of a river valley oasis. This ingenious design, locally relevant and culturally rich, makes the desert skyscraper's stark separation from local material and energy flows look downright primitive.”

 

http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9701967776/m/82019764101

“From what I remember of survival training both have advantages and disadvantages. The trick is to use both.

 

White cloth reflects more radiation but it also lets more through. The cloth itself stays cooler but the skin underneath can warm or burn. Anyone who has worn a loose weave shirt has seen this even if they weren't in a desert. In very harsh equatorial desert sun, the sun will punch right through a white t-shirt.

 

Black cloth blocks light completely at surface but it grows hot in doing so.

 

The trick that desert people like the Bedouin use is to layer black cloth on top of white cloth. The black cloth absorbs heat at the surface and the white cloth insulates the body from the hot black cloth. The cloths are loose fitting enough that they don't interfere with perspiration.”

 

One thing this last item made me wonder about was undercoat. Most Border Collies have at least some. My dog has a true black coat - very shiny w/ blue highlights - but a light-colored undercoat. Her outer coat is quite long in places, but not thick at all.

 

I've always heard that a dog's coat provides insulation from both extremes of heat, but how this worked was never explained to me. I wonder if the black topcoat with a lighter undercoat is the best for managing heat. If my dog lies in the sun on a moderate day her hair will be hot to the touch, but she will not pant or show other signs of being too hot unless it's quite warm outside. Are her shiny black coat and light gray undercoat the perfect "heat-control-suit"?

[Root Beer]

Please forget that I own a merle as I ask this question. This is simply a matter of sheer curiosity, which has nothing to do with any dog that I own.

 

If there are few to no good working merles, why didn't the gene disappear from the Border Collie generations ago, well before the advent of sport Border Collie breeders and AKC recognition of the breed?

 

I am extremely curious about this. If few, or no, quality working merle Border Collies have ever existed, why do they exist at all in a breed that was developed strictly for stockwork? My interest is from a purely historical perspective.

[Sue R]

First off, no one has said there are "no" good working dogs that are merle (I am phrasing this just a bit differently from you because I think that, in general, working ability has nothing to do with color). As long as there are any good working dogs that are merle, and people use them to breed, there will be some pups produced that are merle (since merle is dominant). If, prior to current understanding of merle genetics, only pups produced that obviously appeared to be merle, were removed from the gene pool, that may still have left some merles reproducing but in very small numbers.

 

Whether or not the merle gene is at all a mutation that appears on its own on occasion, I don't have a clue. That could be another reason. So could the fact that merle can be hard to detect (cryptic merle) and there could actually be more merle dogs that work than is obvious to the eye, and using them for breeding would result in at least some merle pups (although I wonder how many of them would again be cryptic rather than obvious).

 

An interesting study I ran across indicated that in several breeds studied, differing temperments were associated with different coat colors and/or coat textures. For instance, in one breed, aggressive tendancies were more prevalent with certain coat colors and less aggressive temperments were more prevalent with different coat colors. In another breed, temperment differences were seen between wiry and silky coats. This study was published a few years ago in Applied Animal Behavior Science.

 

I found that interesting and wondered just how many breeds might have certain temperment characteristics associated with different *apparently physical* characteristics. Could (and I'm totally postulating here) something like this explain old prejudices against certain colors or color patterns in the working sheepdog? Or not.

[Root Beer]

Thanks, Sue. That makes a lot of sense.

 

I also find the possible link between coat colors/types and temperament interesting, as well.

[Sue R]

Totally off topic here but back to that color/temperment study - the study showed that in Labrador Retrievers, more aggressiveness was associated with yellow, less with black, and the least with chocolate.

 

Now, down on the Outer Banks, where the resident population of Labs tends to be (apparently) almost entirely yellow, the dogs are not overly friendly but not aggressive. They tend to be solid, down-to-earth, steady, intelligent - and entirely descended from working retriever lines, since they have been used for generations for hunting. They are not silly, bounce-in-your-face, barky dogs. They tend to be interested but still rather aloof, if you can picture that in a Lab.

 

The one black Lab that my daughter has encountered (she spends a lot of time down there, and knows a number of the locals), was your typical pet-bred Lab, and not at all like the working-bred yellows. Friendlier, silly, bouncy, barky, no personal space.

 

I could see where that study may be on the mark. The other thing a Lab person said to me some years ago is that since black Labs have been more popular for a longer time than yellow Labs, they have been bred as pets, show dogs, and general companions for more generations than the yellows. I don't know where the chocolates would fit into that but, since they were relatively unknown to the general population not too many years ago and therefore not bred for pet, show, or companion in any numbers, and since they apparently are the least aggressive, that would fit this postulation very nicely.

 

There is a lot to learn that we just don't know, isn't there?

[Olivia]

I'm not sure about color but in my personal experience with dachshunds, the smooth coats seem to be much more snappy, barky and generally more unpleasant than the long coated dogs. The long coated ones have been sweeter and more trustworthy and in general nicer little dogs. The wire haired ones all seemed to fall somewhere in the middle.

 

That's interesting about labs. I would agree with the ones I've met, the yellows are nicer, the blacks a little nuttier and the chocolates are absolutely crazy!

[rushdoggie]

This is an interesting article I came across a few weeks ago when looking at info on Jindos (a friend of mine is teaching English in S. Korea and was telling me about them):

 

Behavioural reactivity of the Korean native Jindo dog varies with coat colour

 

Abstract

 

This study aimed to compare the behavioural reactivity of Jindo dogs with two different coat colours. Fawn (16 males, 15 females; mean age ± S.D. = 7.2 ± 2.1 years) and white (10 males, 10 females; mean age ± S.D. = 6.9 ± 2.1 years) Jindo dogs were exposed to a set of behavioural tests. All of the dogs were videotaped during the testing period to allow further analysis. The intensity of social, aggressive, fearful, and submissive reactivity and the frequency of urination as a scent-marking behaviour were scored on a scale running from 0 to 4 points. For each dog, each variable was defined as the average of the scores of nine behaviour tests. Then, the behavioural reactivities of Jindo dogs of each coat colour were compared. The results suggested that Jindo dogs of fawn coat colour exhibited a significantly lower intensity of fearful and submissive reactivity than those of white coat colour. In addition, fawn Jindo dogs produced scent-marking behaviour significantly more frequently. The results of the present study may provide useful information for scientific researchers, potential owners and breeders of Jindo dogs.

link

[Mithcol1234]

Just to stay on topic, Im still looking for a way of obtaining a blue merle border collie from a reputable place (puppy or rescue). Hopefully by the end of summer.

 

 

Thank you for all the responses.

[bcnewe2]

Why don't you contact some of the people off these boards that were involved with the Texas rescue. There were a lot of dogs there and I saw quite a few merles. JonhLloydJones is a member here, along with others I can't remember. Look for the post about the Texas reunion and go from there. Sounds like there were some good dogs that need lots of love, attention and good homes.

 

Good luck

[huskerdog (liz)]

Just to stay on topic, Im still looking for a way of obtaining a blue merle border collie from a reputable place (puppy or rescue). Hopefully by the end of summer.

 

 

Thank you for all the responses.

 

 

Nebraska Border Collie Rescue has a young, blue merle male. He is a rough coat, and has been herding instinct tested as well.

[havenjm]

I can only think of three breeders in North American with merles that I would even consider buying a dog from.

I don't think there is such a thing a responsible BC breeder who has merles on purpose.

[havenjm]

Just to stay on topic, Im still looking for a way of obtaining a blue merle border collie from a reputable place.

Just to reiterate, there really is no such thing, outside of rescue, as a reputable place that is breeding for merles.