jvw Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Sorry to be a stick in the mud but I don't think at this point a second dog is a good idea at all. Jennifer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Oh, yeah. Thank you to those who mentioned nixing the laser pointer. I meant to bring that up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysheperdess Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 I would have to agree %100, do NOT get another dog right now...that would be a recipe for disaster..you need to get a handle on the one you have before considering another... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Really? I've always found "the more, the merrier" applies particularly well to dogs. The younger dogs keep each other entertained and exercised while learning social skills, and the older ones are far better at correcting and shaping behavior than a human trainer. Although, come to think of it - I don't suppose I've ever actually had just one dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc friend Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Maybe I've missed seeing it in the post but how much actual physical activity other than walks are you doing with her? I saw where you're walking her for a couple of hours a day (which is great) but how about playing ball/fetch with her, throwing her a frisbee, etc. Yep, I've had one of those hyper puppies too! After she wore me out with the walk, I would sit in a lawn chair in my back yard and throw a ball, frisbee, rubber stick where she had to run around, bring it back to me and expend even more energy! I also agree she needs to be taught to chill. (and just fyi - my maniac grew up to be a well-balanced dog with a very reasonable energy requirement - it was just that stage from 8-12 months that was crazy). The best of luck to you and welcome to the Boards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysheperdess Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Actually trainer/competitors I know...or people who have spent years in there field...recomend the exact opposite....they don't want there dogs, especially there young ones learning anything from there other dogs...your young one will bond intensely and quickly to the other dog which can cuase a slew of potential issues.... bottom line...when raising a pup you want ALL good things and teaching to come from you....rewards, affection, disipline, correction...everything...I think the general guideline is 2 yrs between dogs and that's if there aren't any behavior/training problems. Several well respected dog peopl who I know of will go as far as not raising there pups with there adult dogs AT ALL...Keeping them entirely seperated until they to are adults... I experienced the fall out of this first hand...let one of my first pups spend to much time with my more mature adult male...he bonded to closely, and being a bc became obsessed with his elder...where he was, where he wasn't all the time..he didn't bond properly with ME as a young dog. Learned that lesson the hard way.. Also...WOULD NOT recomend ball play/frisbee with this dog...2 reasons. 1) Injury to a dog playing these activites at this age is HIGH..WAY to young..just got REAMED from one of the top rehab vets in my state for even cosidering playing fetch/frisbee with my adult dogs...she sees SCORES of injured dogs over this.. 2) This does nothing to engage his mind..might appeal to there prey drive but it's a very indless game...and I would go as far to say that it REVS up there mind even more. I found that when I cut out all ball play/frisbee with my dogs years ago..they were MUCH calmer in general. It encourages there mind to become obssesive...and crazy... I got into this crazy cycle when I didn't know better of playing intense fetch with my dogs when they were younger..thinking that..they are border collies..they need to be worn out..they got crazier and more obssesive so I kept thinking..they need more fetching. I finally decided to stop the ball play/frisbee as it became a non stop obsession for them and one got badly injured. I went cold turkey and just took them on long calming hikes/walks or runs a couple times a week, plus there obedience training(where they were allowed to be crazy over toys but had to work for them)...and it was like night/day.....calm, balanced..peaceful dogs.. Anyway..in my STRONG opinion..do NOT get another dog and NOOOOO fetching!! If you insist on it at least wait until they are OLDER!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 The younger dogs keep each other entertained and exercised while learning social skills, and the older ones are far better at correcting and shaping behavior than a human trainer. I've found this to be true and my older dogs were an invaluable help to me when I was integrating adolescent Dean, and right-off-the-streets Tessa. The other dogs helped teach the household structures, and provided additional entertainment and exercise to what I provided, and helped in ways I can't really even begin to appreciate. That said, I don't recommend a second dog in this case. Where an already established older dog can be helpful in this way, in this case the second dog would not already be a settled and established member of the household. No matter how carefully the second dog were chosen, there is a chance the other dog could come with issues or needs that would only add to what the OP already has. The second dog would need bonding time and training and would not necessarily be in a position to help with the youngster right away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 shy shepherdess: I suppose everyone has her own viewpoint. I find it far easier to train a dog (or a horse) who's been well-socialized to its own kind first. But I know some horse people who feel as you do - that allowing the animal interaction with others of its species somehow prevents it "bonding" with its handler. I'm not into bonding - I'm happy if the critter just does what I tell it. If we wind up really falling for each other, great - but it's not a condition of employment at my place. Dogs who obsess on other dogs will do so whether or not they live with another dog. Granted, the compulsion can be strengthened if the owner allows the obsessed dog to stare or grip or similarly harass its canine housemates - but I've known solo dogs who would obsess on complete canine strangers. Not even going there about frisbee and fetching. I remember the last time y'all got in a lather about fetching. OP - let's just say there's a great difference of opinion on this. Although we probably all agree that pups the age of yours shouldn't be leaping up and down for things repetitively. Root Beer: I dunno - Scot was a great help with Faith, even though he came along a year or so after her. Violet, my older established girl, was the one to teach Faith her manners, but Scot provided Faith with plenty of exercise and with someone who actually enjoyed her company, bless her heart - she'd about worn out her welcome with the rest of the household. Of course, you're right that they all come with their own issues and one has to be prepared to deal with that. Scottie certainly had his - I wouldn't have thought a seventy pound dog could fit into one's pocket, but for a long time Scot remained convinced he could manage it. I wonder, though, if the OP has a rescue nearby that could act as a canine matchmaker. If they had one they thought might work as a companion to little Miss Sunny, the OP could probably take the dog on trial to see if it worked out. If not, then the potential companion just goes back to its foster home. Way less traumatic than returning a dog to a shelter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc friend Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Obviously there's some difference of opinion about whether fetching/frisbee is appropriate at this age or not. I'm talking about backyard,not competitive, play. I was speaking based on my own experience - with a dog who never suffered an injury, OFA'd excellent hips, and lived to be 17 having arthritis only in her old age. Differences of opinion are both reasonable and to be expected - only you can decide what is right for your dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Ruh, roh. We've had some heated discussions here before about the so called evils of fetch. Always going to be two sides to it, and everyone has to do what they're comfortable with. I played light fetch with 9 month olds, for short time periods, and I still play fetch with my adults. It only becomes an obsessive problem if one allows it happen. As for well respected dog people/trainers, who don't raise puppies with older dogs, or allow them to interact much with other dogs, I disagree with that, too. There is plenty for a puppy to learn from other dogs, and much of it is pretty important if you want them to live in a world with other dogs. But that's another issue that is to each his own...I also don't really recommend a playmate for the OPs situation right now, but I'm not going to say it wouldn't ever be beneficial in some cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 I also don't really recommend a playmate for the OPs situation right now, but I'm not going to say it wouldn't ever be beneficial in some cases. And I should be clear that I'm not saying all playmates are beneficial in all cases. Cause just a few minutes ago I realized that, had it not been for MaryP, I'd probably have wound up with both Faith and Skittles at my house! Somehow I don't think either of them would've improved the other's manners much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Star Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 I don't have much to say that's of help except I'll weigh in that a border collie does not have to be high energy. Star ( now 18 months) spent this morning in the house while I went to clients, then I came home and she went out for a few minutes. She's now laying on the floor hanging out, while I work up the inspiration to get back to work. We'll play ball or do some tricks later, and I'll scratch her tummy. She'll play with the girls some. She'll "help" me put the girls to bed. I might take her for a run with me tonight, or might not. Later tonight we'll play some more ball while I watch tv and maybe do some more tricks. If she wants to play past bedtime I'll tell her to go to bed and that will be it until tomorrow. She was always a pretty calm dog--I think I just lucked out on that. But I do recall moments in her puppyhood that were very frustrating and now she is turning into a "best dog evah". All to say there could be hope, and time may help quite a bit. Star did get the zoomies every night around 11:00--I sure miss those zoomies--they were so cute! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ddraig Posted April 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Wow, thank you so much for all the replies to this message. Apologies if I don't quote someone, I'm trying to hit all the main ideas but the board said I hit my limit on quotes. I have three typical tools for teaching the off switch - I just don't know how to "enforce" calmness I suppose. When put in her crate while unwilling, for example, she'll attack anything within reach or the bars if the crate is bare. Similarly with the sitting at my feat, she'd get more and more antsy until she was chomping through her leash and/or jumping all over me whining. A friend of mine does what she calls "sit on the dog," and while I've gotten the picture of what she meant, it looks like it's described at length HERE. Is this kind of what you mean with "leash at my feet"? My fears are similar to what I say above. I'm certainly going to try this because if it works it sounds wonderful, but I can just picture 30 minutes of straight whining and jumping, and possibly the death of a leash or two. If I only react when she's done something I don't want her to do (eating the restraining device or chair) won't this exercise reinforce the idea of bad attention? I broke my Border collie pup of chasing the cat by grabbing him when it happened and locking him a bathroom. Just twenty seconds at a time, but he very soon learned that there are forms of attention he didn't relish. I'll work on this certainly. What did you do during the "timeouts" when the pup barked or whined to get out of the confinement? Do you reset your timer? Crate, crate, crate. Give her the exercise, mentally stimulate her with training, and then Kong in the crate. Think of an overtired toddler...that's how she's acting, and the more she works herself up, the more she needs a time out. We had to learn this with our BC mix when he was a pup. Otherwise, like clockwork, he'd get the 9:00 PM zoomies, usually while banking off the back of our couch. Also 'painted_ponie' about crating when she goes after the cats: She's ok with the crate during the work day, but during the day while we're around it's instant barking, kong or no kong. We didn't go through crate training with her, she was used to it when she arrived. I'm really nervous about associating the crate with anything close to bad behavior. Any advice for getting her to actually enjoy her time in there even when given an alternative? Not that this is the whole problem, but you might want to get rid of the laser pointer. Thanks to everyone for the laser pointer suggestions. I'll make sure to cease with that particular toy right away. We had it for the cats who will, one day, catch that darn laser. Don't use a clicker to mark calm behavior with this dog. A clicker probably jacks up her adrenalin higher... Try a nose work class. I've noticed this, she sits bolt upright when that clicker goes. Still its a solid indication that she's done a good thing. Tough call there. I'm not sure what a nose work class is. Is getting her a canine friend absolutely out of the question? Plus myriad other quotes about another canine friend... I've thought about the 2nd dog thing actually. My first cat was super destructive during the day so I went back and got her littermate and it was a great decision, they keep each other entertained to this day. I could see doing something similar here, but a 2nd dog just seems like a whole other level. 2 cats doesn't feel like a big step from 1, 2 dogs on the other hand... I'm not sure I could handle it. It sounds both good and bad at the same time, but without a firm indication either way I'm going to maintain the status quo. I already feel like I live in a zoo Maybe I've missed seeing it in the post but how much actual physical activity other than walks are you doing with her? The fetching/playing varies day to day, it's not as structured as the walks which are dictated by my work schedule. Mostly, though, its all on her. She'll fetch for 5 minutes then get bored with it. Then she'll tug for 5 minutes and get bored with it. I'd do more but she loses interest in everything so fast. Obviously there's some difference of opinion about whether fetching/frisbee is appropriate at this age or not. Being all kinds of new here I'm not gonna touch the back and forth on fetching and frisbee. I'll say that when we do it its brief and gentle, not mad jumping or anything like that. She usually watches the ball roll then jogs off after it, often losing interest before she arrives. Trying to answer misc other questions/comments: I live in Albany, NY. I'm interested in both agility and flyball as an outlet for her, not just physical but mental but for right now I'm just trying to survive. In case it was poorly worded in the main post, she's 9 months old and we've had her for just about a month. SetSail: So they HAVE perfected cloning. You just described young Sunny. And this is sadly the only good shot I have of her, the one time I can remember when she wasn't a blur of movement or crated: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 She's too cute! I can just see the crazy pouring off her. What I did when my maniac acted a fool in the crate was ignore him. If he needed to settle down, in the crate he went. In another room, with the door shut. There will be an adjustment period where Sunny may freak out, but give her a Kong filled with goodies and ignore her (earplugs?). Eventually, she will learn to settle in the crate, and you may not have to have her in another room. I agree with not wanting to associate the crate with bad behavior, but you're not reallly punishing, just giving her a time out. Put her in the crate with no emotion at all, so she doesn't sense you're upset or frustrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 What did you do during the "timeouts" when the pup barked or whined to get out of the confinement? Do you reset your timer? Also 'painted_ponie' about crating when she goes after the cats: She's ok with the crate during the work day, but during the day while we're around it's instant barking, kong or no kong. We didn't go through crate training with her, she was used to it when she arrived. I'm really nervous about associating the crate with anything close to bad behavior. Any advice for getting her to actually enjoy her time in there even when given an alternative? Oh, as I remember Faith banged and whined and occasionally screamed her head off when I crated her and we were around. I just ignored it. Which involved moving her crate to a closed room at another end of the house at one point. Anyway - no I wouldn't reset the timer on how long she has to stay crated. I would just try and wait till she's quiet before letting her out, cause you don't want to inadvertently reinforce the noise-making. She has to draw breath sometime , so wait for that nanosecond of silence to open the crate door. Also, don't worry about her enjoying her time in her crate. That was part of my problem with Faith - Jack pointed out that because I felt bad for her (she was a sickly pup pulled from a kill shelter) I wanted her to be happy!happy!happy! all the time. And because she really did want to please me, Faith responded by being HAPPY!!HAPPY!!HAPPY! until we each about drove the other insane. I think you should just let her be. As Laura (Carson Crazies) said above, sometimes life is dull and boring, and really, we're all better off to learn that at an early age. I can't wait to post pictures of Faith when I get home. The resemblance to Sunny is striking. I've always thought my girl might have a little English Shepherd in the BC woodpile somewhere - although the older she gets the more BC-ish she gets. Any English Shepherds in your part of the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Umm ... come install that hardwood floor in my house and I'll train your dog for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 I just don't know how to "enforce" calmness I suppose. When put in her crate while unwilling, for example, she'll attack anything within reach or the bars if the crate is bare. Similarly with the sitting at my feat, she'd get more and more antsy until she was chomping through her leash and/or jumping all over me whining. This can be trained as well, both to get into teh crate when asked and rewarding her for calm behavior. Start by not letting her out for this kind of antsy behavior. Also, try feeding her in her crate and filling stuffed kongs with REALLY good stuff so that shes willing to lay at empty them for a few minutes...this will help her associate the crate as being a good place to be and to chill out. My fears are similar to what I say above. I'm certainly going to try this because if it works it sounds wonderful, but I can just picture 30 minutes of straight whining and jumping, and possibly the death of a leash or two. If I only react when she's done something I don't want her to do (eating the restraining device or chair) won't this exercise reinforce the idea of bad attention? Get a inexpensive coated cable to tie her with, and tie her to something sturdier than the cahir, or pick up a chair at a yard sale and use that. Wait her out. She WILL stop at some point, and thats when you interact. Google "extinction burst" and understand what that is and why you have to wait it out. She's ok with the crate during the work day, but during the day while we're around it's instant barking, kong or no kong. We didn't go through crate training with her, she was used to it when she arrived. I'm really nervous about associating the crate with anything close to bad behavior. Any advice for getting her to actually enjoy her time in there even when given an alternative? 1. read "exiction burst" info above 2. what do you put in the Kong? 3. work on training her to stay in the crate with the door open as an active training exercise I'd do more but she loses interest in everything so fast. Its teh age, partly, and really 10 minutes of fetch is enough for most dogs, I think. Shes freekin adorable and its hard to tell with just one photo, but do you know shes GSD mixed? She looks like a smoothie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 My fears are similar to what I say above. I'm certainly going to try this because if it works it sounds wonderful, but I can just picture 30 minutes of straight whining and jumping, and possibly the death of a leash or two. If I only react when she's done something I don't want her to do (eating the restraining device or chair) won't this exercise reinforce the idea of bad attention? how about using a chain leash? I generally don't like them because they're hard on your hands, but one might work really well in your situation as you work on teaching her to be calm! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 I just don't know how to "enforce" calmness I suppose. When put in her crate while unwilling, for example, she'll attack anything within reach or the bars if the crate is bare. Similarly with the sitting at my feat, she'd get more and more antsy until she was chomping through her leash and/or jumping all over me whining. If I only react when she's done something I don't want her to do (eating the restraining device or chair) won't this exercise reinforce the idea of bad attention? I'll work on this certainly. What did you do during the "timeouts" when the pup barked or whined to get out of the confinement? Do you reset your timer? And this is sadly the only good shot I have of her, the one time I can remember when she wasn't a blur of movement or crated: Gorgeous pup!!! And I'll echo what Jodi said - I'll train your dog (though I don't have any creds) if you'll do my floors! You know, the more I read through your descriptions of your pup, the more I think you might benefit from two things. One I've used, the other I haven't (but it's come highly recommended). The first, which some people have mentioned, is the book "Control Unleashed". Not so much, perhaps, for the specific exercises, but more to help you learn to catch the correct moment to reward your dog for doing the "right thing", and to learn to work through the wrong thing when it happens. A lot of people think mistakenly it's designed for "dog reactive" dogs, but that's far from the truth. We signed our ~ 1-year-old Border collie up for a Control Unleashed class because he was (as an adolescent) losing his brain when he saw other dogs - whined, wanted to be with them, forgot that we were part of the equation. It helped us develop the strategies needed to help him focus on us, and right now he's great 99% of the time. The other thing is a DVD: "Crate Games" http://www.dogwise.c...s.cfm?ID=dta287 . (I bought a copy when we were doing the "Control Unleashed" class but then our dog improved so quickly that I never got around to using it). I think a lot of the things they espoused in this DVD migrated to the "Control Unleashed" class we took, though. My dog, at 2 years of age, is a model of decorum most of the time right now. Sure, he'll still stare hard at a ball that a father is throwing to his son on our way to my car after work, but he has learned not to pull at the leash or whine. That remaining 1% of the time has to do with when he's in the presence of temptations too great to resist, namely sheep. (He's very, very, very keen when it comes to that, especially now he's started lessons). If I gave him the chance, he'd pull on the leash like a sled dog. But... *I* control the sheep, and his access to them. If he tries to dash through a gate, it gets shut in his face, and we walk the other way. It's EXACTLY the same as the self-control games in the crate we were working on when he was taking the CU class. Try to make a dash out of the crate when I open the door? Sorry, the door closes again. I'll open it a bit - he tries to dash, it closes. Eventually they figure out that they only leave the crate on YOUR terms, and only after they've displayed self-control. Similarly - if the pup was whining in the crate (or in the purgatory of the bathroom) while waiting to come out - I'd wait until he was quiet. Maybe he only needs to be quiet for a nanosecond to qualify, but the name of the game is to teach him that *he* needs to control his behavior. Letting them out while they're whining merely teaches them to associate behavior I'd deem undesirable (whining or barking) with a reward. I'm also a big believer in the NILIF ("nothing in life is free") philosophy. Our dog gets treats, sure, but only if he does something for them. Maybe it's a trick, maybe it's just coming to "his" corner of the dining room and lying down as we're about to have dinner, but he doesn't even get his evening fish oil capsules without "singing" for them. Start small. Put her in the crate and shower it with treats the moment she's calm. Withhold them if she's being a nut case. These dogs are scary smart. She'll figure it out in no time. In the process, you and she will develop a closer relationship than you might have thought was possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoresDog Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 German shepherd dog? Based on the one picture, she looks a lot like my smooth-coated border collie, even including the cute cowlick on her tummy. How much does she weigh? Mine, who is 100% border collie, weighs 37 pounds as a 3-year-old. She's a bit smaller than average, but there's a wide range. More pictures might change the consensus, but she does look all border collie from the one. The good thing about that is while she may not be doing what you want now, she is probably plenty, plenty smart enough to learn if you can hang in there and be consistent with the plan that you develop. There may be a great dog on the other end. Kudos to you for researching it and giving her a shot at becoming your good dog. Edited to add: /\ /\ /\ Alchemist sez good stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 Nose Work is a relatively new dog sport, in which a dog is 'trained' to use its sense of smell to find something. The first series of classes the dog finds a hidden bit of food, something with a good strong odor. The second series of classes the odor of food is paired with an essential oil, usually sweet birch or clove, then the food is faded, so that the dog is finding the hidden scent only. The essential oil is on a q-tip or cotton ball, tucked into a small metal tin with holes poked into the top. I put set off 'trained' because dogs experience much more of the world through their noses, and humans experience more of the world through their eyes. For pet dogs, a lot of what they do naturally with their noses we don't like them to do: sniff waste on the ground, sniff someone's crotch or butt, etc. So, dogs aren't encouraged to use this innate ability. Once they're set up to succeed in using that nose and rewarded for it, (food or toy or tug) a lot of dogs, (both of mine) become more sure of themselves, calmer, etc. I've seen wonderful things in both my dogs because of nose work classes. I'll google it and see what I come up with. Ruth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 http://www.examiner.com/dog-training-in-albany/wintertime-blues-nosework-for-your-dog There are a couple other links as well, I googled 'canine nose work Albany New York'. Count me in with the no to flyball group. Way too stimulating for your girl at this time. I feel for you, we had 3 border collies and 2 cats at one time, and life was never boring. Thanks for the pic, she looks adorable! Hang in there, you've got some great ideas to try. Be consistent, be consistent, be consistent. Ruth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 Lots and Lots of good advice here. Just a couple of random thoughts: Kudos to you for trying your best to help this puppy. Unfortunately she doesn't appear to have had a good foundation when she was younger, and everyone is paying for it now. Not only are you and your wife frustrated, but your puppy is probably also frustrated/confused/suffering from adolescent angst. You might try the DVD "Crate Games" by Susan Garrett. From what others on this list have said, it helps to teach the dog to like the crate AND to stay calmly in the crate (i.e. builds self-control). What do you put in the Kong? To make the Kong more interesting for a longer period of time, I will spread PB or squeeze cheese or canned dog good around the inside (I use my finger - yuck) so the dog has to work harder to get it all out. I don't necessarily fill it up with food - just make it hard to get it out. Did you say you would play tug (exclusively?) for 5 minutes or so at a time? You DO have stamina. I can not imagine doing that. I don't think it is necessary to actually tug without interruption for longer than 5-10 seconds. I use the tug as a play reward when my dog does something good - comes when called, goes through the weave poles, etc. Then, he drops the tug on my command. (That command took a LOONNGG time to teach, but it was worth it. More self control.) For example: my play session may be 10 minutes long, but the tugging part may be only 2 minutes of that. Note: some people do not believe one should ever play tug with their dog (I got THE LECTURE from my vet about this. I ignored him.) But IMHO, tugging can be an excellent way to interact with your dog IF done appropriately. Re: obedience classes. I think a couple of other respondents touched on this, and I have to echo their sentiments. Where are you taking obedience classes? I am not a fan of obedience classes offered by a big box store (no names given). Your situation requires a very experienced trainer, not only of the sit/stay/down variety, but also with regard to the home issues you are experiencing. Good Luck, Jovi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippin's person Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 You're getting some great advice and your puppy is very cute. From that picture, she looks younger to me than 9 mos, but maybe the slight blurriness of the picture is making her look like she's still fuzzy. Regardless, my experience with raising border collie puppies is 1) they have the attention span of a gnat and 2) We disliked every single one of them (pretty intensely at times) from about 7 months until about 18 months. Trying times. Our first puppy (the one in my profile pic) could not be out of eye sight while loose until she was about 2 or she would rip up clothes, tear up paper, find and eat pens, and just generally get into trouble. Once, she turned on the stove while trying to acrobatically acquire a pan that had been used to fry an egg. I'm still sometimes shocked that she (and we) survived. I remember posting to these very boards asking how I could possibly keep her busy because she lost interest in anything we did after about 2 minutes. As most others have said, ignore her when she's acting like an ass (which is definitely easier said than done and will take real fortitude on your and your wife's part); give her stuff in the crate to work her mind. You said you have Kongs, etc.--do you fill them and freeze them so they take longer to eat and require her to work at it? Have you tried a Busy Buddy (you can google it)--I don't think we would have ever eaten a meal without someone in tears had it not been for Busy Buddies filled with peanut butter and kibble. If you're o.k. with bones, getting one of those marrow bones and filling the middle with canned food, bananas, applesauce, etc. and freezing it can keep a pup busy for nearly an hour. The later puppies were much easier to raise than the first one because we had older dogs. the first puppy, even with one older dog willing to play, was trial by fire. I don't know if I'd bring in a second dog just yet if it were me in your situation--I'd wait at least a couple of months. Teaching her an off switch will take much longer than you think it will--she won't get it for a while, but if you decide to stick with it, she will figure it out and you'll be the one writing advice in a year or so. Good for you ditching the laser toy. Personally, I think it's just as bad for cats as for Border Collies. Like others said, harassing cats is a big, big no. In addition to what others have suggested for the dog, if your cats haven't lived with a dog before, you might also consider acclimating them and helping them see the dog as a good addition--when we brought in our non-BC, first dog (an insane terrier mix who initially behaved much like you describe yours behaving), we finally got him to stop chasing when the cat stopped running away. We had three cats, none of whom had lived with a dog before. One of them pretty much attacked the instant the dog got close--he never, ever bothered her (nor did any of the other dogs, including a dozen fosters). The second one ignored him--and the feeling was mutual. The third one ran and was scared. Chase on. We fed them both roast beef together for several days and that seemed to fix it. Cat stopped running; dog stopped chasing. We also created a space in our house that was completely off limits to the dog(s). That same cat who ran initially eventually called the dogs to play and enticed them to play chase. The dogs learned how to do that without being put away (because if they were rough, away they went). All our cats and dogs seem to play with each other now--it's pretty fun to observe. For the first month we had that first dog, we were certain we were taking him back. For the second month, we thought we'd probably have to take him back. By the third month, we'd figured each other out better, started teaching ourselves what we actually expected from him and then started to teach him that. By the fourth month, he was our dog. Three years later, we got the border collie. And then another. And then another and so on and so on. I found Pat Miller's book "the power of positive dog training" a godsend--I've used many training books and I still think that's the best for initially training a dog and particularly for training a first dog. Like Laura (Carson Crazies) and maybe others have said--your house; your rules. Dogs like to know what's going to happen and they respect consistent boundaries. We have six border collies and the insane terrier (and three cats). As I type, they are all lying around, quietly. Well, actually, I think the 9mos old pup might be considering some trouble--but beyond that, they are all lying around. If you want her to, yours probably will learn to, too. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary&Sully Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 There is some great advice up here, I completely support all of the training advice that everyone has already mentioned. My pup went through a very high energy phase before I was able to figure out exactly what worked and didn't work in the exercise department. While I was trying to play fetch, my pup has absolutely no interest in the ball or frisbee after throw 2 (3 if I'm super lucky). While we walked and walked and walked, he wasn't getting those running spells that he needed to truly tire out enough for him to focus during obedience training. The dog park saved my sanity. 30 minutes there and he was so much more biddable and the training was able to sink in faster. There are a lot of really horrible dog parks though, so you need to be very careful in finding one with responsible owners and polite dogs (also be sure your dog is fully vaccinated). But... Once you find a match, it can really help you out with the hyper spells especially on nights when you have a large amount of work. We rarely go anymore because he has calmed down and we have developed the exercise and training regiment that works, but it sure was a life-saver a few months ago! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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