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gneiss

Breeders in the Pacific Northwest?

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Originally posted by gneiss:

The reason I am looking for a BC breeder is that I have a BC with space issues. I am looking for a very specific dog. I am looking for a puppy. I want a very sweet, semi-soft, middle of the road temperament, on a scale between 1-10, i'm looking for 4 to 6.

I don't know if this will help you, but I have four dogs (3 of which were adopted through rescue). The oldest has 'space issues' and yet I have managed to integrate a variety of personal and foster dogs (maybe 50 or more?) into his life and my household over the last 7 years. He has tolerated them all, been indifferent to some and actively liked others.

 

The dogs he really liked in recent memory (not including my own dogs) included an 8 year old, one eyed, very shy male, a 4 month old very fiesty female, a 2-4 year old fawning female. The last dog I added to my pack was a 10 month old male and he stayed specifically because Red Dog actually really likes his company and will seek him out to play and interact. RD doesn't play with other dogs so this was a motivating factor in my decision to keep this dog (who started out as a foster dog).

 

All puppies have been bitten by RD. My vet calls him the one-hit wonder because I am forever bringing puppies with a holes in their faces or ears in for a clean up. He finds them much more irritating than adult dogs, unless those adult dogs challenge him.

 

So it's worth thinking about, when considering a second dog. If you must have a puppy you can find them in rescue and potentially with the temperament you are looking for. But you can find an adult or adolescent with the same kind of temperament as well. When balancing your needs and the needs of your dog, a slightly older dog / pup might be a better way to go. Although some breeders are very good at predicting temperaments and the development of pups, none of them have crystal balls.

 

RDM

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Eileen,

The original post by the OP was

"I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good border collie breeder. I live in Oregon, and am willing to travel to washington and British Columbia, Canada."

 

The "Apparently I need to be more specific in my needs." part was an edited add on, most likely in response to Julie P's post.

 

I have tried many ways to write this thought to be PC and non-offensive, but have not been able to form a coherent statement so I?ll put it like this.

 

If you can?t spend the time to formulate and ask a question with at least some background information provided, why should you expect an informed response, if any at all.

The generic ?recommend a breeder? posts says nothing.

It says nothing about any knowledge that the poster may or may not have with respect to the breed.

It says nothing about why any breed is wanted, much less this one.

It says nothing about understanding the needs or complexities of the breed.

It says nothing about the situation the dog is being brought into and if it will ?fit in?.

 

If they had read the ?Read This First?, they are aware of rescues.

If they are aware of rescues, but do not want a rescue, that should be stated.

 

I guess all I expect is that at least as much consideration is shown to exist in getting a dog as in picking out a restaurant.

 

ETA... The person asking the question and the person providing the answer are both doing a disservice to the dog and the breed if it ends up with more dogs in rescues / shelters / pounds or mistreated or bred when it should not have been if it was the result of a reckless answer to an uninforming question.

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Some additional food for thought as you ponder a puppy. Puppies learn by example so if your dog has "issues" a puppy may also be exposed to, and thus learn, similar "issues". Not saying it can't be curbed or that you couldn't handle it, but an adult, for example, may very well be softer and more respectful of a dog with issues than a puppy.....and not pick anything up to boot.

 

You obviously know your dog best and what he will put up with it so any advice is just based on our own experiences, but any puppy, regardless of temperament, has always been an issue for my adult who prefers to not have his space invaded.

 

Maria

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Jeez, can't anyone catch a break here? The OP asked about breeders in the pacific north west. Instead of berating her, all anyone had to do was ask what she was looking for in a dog, and all the other extra language could have been left off. Gary, I think you are being extra harsh on this person. Why do you have a BC? Do you know what it takes to own one? Do you understand the complexities of the breed?

I am sure this would annoy you if someone accosted you with blanket statements like this. Give a person time to ask their questions. Probably the reason the person posted to this board is that someone recommended it to her. I would think this would be a good place, because of the mission of this board. I don't know the OP, but I would not be one bit surprized if she up and left and went to a byb, who was a bit more friendly.

Julie

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Originally posted by kelpiegirl:

all anyone had to do was ask what she was looking for in a dog,

Um, that question WAS asked. In fact, IMO, at least some good information was posted regarding how to find good breeders. And at least one poster made it clear that she had no problem providing via PM the information the OP seeks, and I explained very nicely IMO why I would not be comfortable providing such information without knowing the OP. I can't help some of what you call "berating," but berating the beraters certainly adds nothing useful to the discussion either. So if you have good breeders in the PNW to recommend to this person, or even tips on how to go about finding good breeders locally, how about sharing?

 

J.

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Some things to consider when replying to posts like these: (for future reference)

 

1. Typically people looking for recommendations for "good" breeders are in their research phase. This board has a strong stance against AKC and conformation breeders so I think it's a relatively harmless question to ask. The vast majority of advertisements online and fancy websites are mostly AKC breeders. So - not knowing anything else wouldn't you ask the same question? "There's a forum full of knowledge and experience here - so I'm sure they will know where to look breeder wise for a "good" pup".

 

Perfectly logical thinking.

 

2. Not everyone has the ability to attend stockdog trials, or herding events, or even agility events for that matter. In my case - I'm driving 2hrs each way to hang out at the next closests USBCHA sheep trial. Does everyone have that luxury? Hardly.

 

The only disservice being done here are some of the posters here working against themselves. Let's lay out the facts:

 

1. BCBoards collectively (at least the most vocal posters) are staunchly against AKC registered breeders and conformation breeding.

 

2. BCBoards collectively despises "owners" who get into a breed not knowing what they have in store for them with a BC pup that will eventually end up in a rescue or worse.

 

With these two points in mind - why WOULDN'T you be the first to recommend a quality breeder that you are familiar with? By witholding this information the only thing you are doing is working against yourself. Basically what is being said is "We don't support A & B - but we don't feel comfortable telling you where to get what you are looking for because you haven't done enough yet to warrant access to that information."

 

This in turn comes off as elitest and further perpetuates the disservice.

 

I'm sure these fabled breeders are more than capable of handling the requests for puppies. For the most part these "good" (but unknown) breeders don't usually have puppies available but once or twice a year anyways. What's the harm in referring someone looking for a quality recommendation?

 

I think some posters here need to take a step back and realize that not everyone is fortunate enough to be in their same situation. Where were you before you adopted your first Border Collie? Did you know every intricacy of the breed? Probably not. If you did - then great for you but what's wrong with sharing that information?

 

Witholding information for personal reasons only further alienates potential BC owners into looking at online classifieds, BYBs, and AKC/conformation breeders that are more easily accessible. Where's the disservice being done again?

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Well, I actually don't thing the Boards as a group "despise" owners who get into BCs without doing their research beforehand, so much as we strongly suggest that people DO do their research beforehand, and really think about what they are doing before they take on responsibility for an animal whose life will then depend on them. Once someone turns up here going "Help! I thought I knew what I was getting into, but I'm in over my head!" people by and large try to help, I think. There are of course exceptions, but those tend to be towards people who are going, "I don't think I want this dog any more, can anyone here take it off my hands?" - particularly those who want us to BUY it off their hands, since it tends to come across as attempting to profit from their mistakes instead of taking the hit, as adults do, and saying "Hmm, my mistake - oh, well, live and learn, let's see what I can now do about rectifying my error in a responsible fashion." People who come here and say, "I love this dog and I can't bear to relinquish him/her, but problem X is making me insane, please help me so I can keep my beloved dog and not have him/her tear the house down around my ears" DO tend to get lots of suggestions, advice and encouragement.

 

That said, I'm also not in a position to recommend breeders, since you all know how *I* acquired my most recent pup. :rolleyes: However, I think that there were some good ideas given about getting in the loop with the working dog community, and I also think some good points made about the fact that puppies DO all too often turn up in rescue, and that the fosterers may have as good an idea about what temperaments said pups have as do some (many?) breeders. It is true that to some degree puppies are kind of a pig in a poke.... even if you know the temperaments and abilities of both parents INTIMATELY, that in no way guarantees you what the pup will turn out to be, and pups change over time just like we all do. I share some traits with each of my parents, but I have traits-a-plenty which are all my own... in addition to which, learning, experience, individual choices and personality all enter into it in a MAJOR way. The OP MAY very well know this, since they've already put in some significant time training another BC, and pretty successfully, it appears; OTOH, if they've never reared a pup from scratch, they might NOT know this, and I don't think it's wrong to make mention of it just in case.

 

So, you can try to get a puppy with the desired traits, and you may even GET a puppy with the desired traits, but you also have to bear in mind that (especially in very young puppies) what you THINK you're getting may or may not turn out to be what you really DO get. It's not a total crap-shoot, but I've been surprised often enough with the few pups I've raised from "starters" to know that nature likes to throw in a curve ball now and again. I think it's worth mentioning that, in case the thought hadn't occurred. I'm not sure I'd take that as censure, though, and it's also a good point that knowing more about the situation would be useful to those trying to offer helpful suggestions.

 

I for one would be curious to know it the OP does in fact have the option of getting to know the local working dog community... it might be that if the OP DID get to know some of the local dogs, s/he migh encounter a dog whose traits fit in with the desired traits of a potential pup, and the OP could then proceed from there with considering a related dog who would fit in with the existing husehold. Plus, there have been several posts lately about pups either born in rescue or reliquished to rescue extremely young, so that's another thought to consider.

 

JMO, of course, and I wish the OP the best of luck finding the right dog, whichever way they go about it.

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Julie W.

I have only made one response to the OP, and that was

OP

No one can or should guarantee you all of that in a puppy, regardless of where (s)he came from.

 

Space issues? A puppy will be in the other's face until it grows up or gets bit.

 

"very sweet, semi-soft, middle of the road temperament" "...don't want an independent puppy. I also am looking for a fairly high drive, but not intense, just wanting to please"

 

Good luck

 

I do not find anything harsh in that.

 

Other than that I directed one to bobh and then responded to ones I assumed were directed to me by Eileen.

 

To answer your questions (which I am sure were rhetorical but since you asked)

Why do I own a BC?

Because after 2 years of trying to trap or catch (and finally suceeding) this mottled, matted, dirty, scared dog that had been hit by at least 1 car, was spotted at least 7 miles from where we fed her and I now believe (based on what I have learned about her from the almost 4 years we have had her) dumped and abandoned by its former owner, we fell in love.

 

Do you know what it takes to own one?

The obvious answer is more than her first owner did. I think that those who saw her at the Green Acres SDT this weekend could vouch for her happiness with us.

Since we have gotten her, I have tried to become as informed on the breed as possible. I have attended sheep trials, agility trials, and flyball trials to learn more about them.

I have spent countless hours reading this board and others to come to the current conclusion that as much as I would like to have another BC (regardless of source) it is not the time for me to get one.

 

Do you understand the complexities of the breed?

Enough to know that when I decide it is the right time for me to get another BC I can present enough information to the breeder / rescue to hopefully find the right match.

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In my opinion, if the OP has a list of very specific behavioral and personality requirements s/he wants in a second dog, s/he is better off adopting or buying an adult dog than a puppy.

 

My first Border Collie has "space" issues (along with other issues) so instead of buying a puppy, which is a crapshoot even if you are going with a good breeder and know the parents well, I bought an adult dog with a personality and behavior that meshed well with my existing dog. Solo and Fly are a perfect pair together. Solo is so grumpy about other dogs in his face that I would never buy a puppy to be his buddy. I will have a puppy in the future, but (a) I recognize that I will be managing issues between the puppy and Solo and doubt that they will be friends until the puppy has grown into a dog and (:rolleyes: I have another dog (Fly) to be buddies with the puppy and run interference between the puppy and Solo.

 

I bought Fly as a trained sheepdog because I was interested in learning to handle and competing in trials. If the OP is at all interested in working his or her dog, I strongly recommend going the trained adult route. These are the sanest and best behaved dogs out there.

 

If the OP is looking for a sports dog primarily, and the first dog is a male, I recommend going to a reputable rescue and looking for a even-tempered adult female with excellent dog-dog skills.

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By the way, given that the OP is in Oregon it is a shame s/he was not able to attend the finals less than two weeks ago. Lots of very good dogs from very good breeders there.

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Hypothetically speaking...

What if you later found out that a person asking for a breeder recommendation later turned out to be Jon Katz?

Still feel the same way?

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Originally posted by Gary M:

Hypothetically speaking...

What if you later found out that a person asking for a breeder recommendation later turned out to be Jon Katz?

Still feel the same way?

You could "what if" all day long if you really wanted to.

 

What if the person asking for the breeder recommendation later turned out to be the perfect home for the dog?

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Great if it happens, but knowing more about the person and what they are looking for goes a lot further to matching the dog with a perfect home.

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Well, the thing is, the person who HAS the pups will make the decision of who to give pups to. There is no real guarantee either way. None on what the pup will actually turn out like, and none on what an owner will turn out like. I mean, the foster girls I have now were in their home and well cared for until a year ago. Then all of a sudden, they are not wanted and slated to be PTS.

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Originally posted by iLLt3cK:

Some things to consider when replying to posts like these: (for future reference)

 

1. Typically people looking for recommendations for "good" breeders are in their research phase. This board has a strong stance against AKC and conformation breeders so I think it's a relatively harmless question to ask. The vast majority of advertisements online and fancy websites are mostly AKC breeders. So - not knowing anything else wouldn't you ask the same question? "There's a forum full of knowledge and experience here - so I'm sure they will know where to look breeder wise for a "good" pup".

 

Perfectly logical thinking.

And it's just as logical to reply to that question with "what are you looking for exactly?" As I said in my original reply, what breeder I might recommend largely depends on what the person seeking a pup is *really* looking for.

 

I would also like to point out that while anyone who produces a litter is a breeder, it's rare for breeders of working dogs to have pups on the ground and available whenever someone is looking. And yet I've been on this forum long enough to know that many people who want a puppy want it now. Not six months from now, not a year from now. Now. I know of working dog folks who occasionally have litters. But the chances that they'll have something available at any random time of the year is not great. I'm not using that as an excuse for not giving out information, but just pointing out a salient fact.

 

2. Not everyone has the ability to attend stockdog trials, or herding events, or even agility events for that matter. In my case - I'm driving 2hrs each way to hang out at the next closests USBCHA sheep trial. Does everyone have that luxury? Hardly.
The PNW has lots of herding going on, and according to at least one poster here who recently moved there is also a hotbed of agility and other dog sports. Sure, perhaps an individual might have difficulty getting to *any* border collie-related event, but I think that's more of the exception than the rule and the the fact remains that going to such events is one of the best ways to meet dogs and find out what bloodlines may best match your desires. I would think that for someone with very specific requirements in a pup, it would be *the best* way to find lines with temperaments most likely to meet those requirements--not to mention the value of meeting people who are very knowledgeable about the breed in general and lines in particular. Suggesting this approach to dog buying is neither wrong nor offensive, despite what you may believe.

The only disservice being done here are some of the posters here working against themselves. Let's lay out the facts:

 

1. BCBoards collectively (at least the most vocal posters) are staunchly against AKC registered breeders and conformation breeding.

 

2. BCBoards collectively despises "owners" who get into a breed not knowing what they have in store for them with a BC pup that will eventually end up in a rescue or worse.

 

With these two points in mind - why WOULDN'T you be the first to recommend a quality breeder that you are familiar with? By witholding this information the only thing you are doing is working against yourself. Basically what is being said is "We don't support A & B - but we don't feel comfortable telling you where to get what you are looking for because you haven't done enough yet to warrant access to that information."

 

This in turn comes off as elitest and further perpetuates the disservice.

 

I'm sure these fabled breeders are more than capable of handling the requests for puppies. For the most part these "good" (but unknown) breeders don't usually have puppies available but once or twice a year anyways. What's the harm in referring someone looking for a quality recommendation?

What you consider elitist behavior and "witholding information" I consider being sensible and offering practical advice that will help the seeker to find the best possible dog for them. You may disagree with that approach--the one I have espoused--but that doesn't make me unfair to the OP, nor does it make me elitist. You are of course free to think otherwise.

 

I think some posters here need to take a step back and realize that not everyone is fortunate enough to be in their same situation. Where were you before you adopted your first Border Collie? Did you know every intricacy of the breed? Probably not. If you did - then great for you but what's wrong with sharing that information?

 

Witholding information for personal reasons only further alienates potential BC owners into looking at online classifieds, BYBs, and AKC/conformation breeders that are more easily accessible. Where's the disservice being done again?

Well, let's see. I DID share that information actually. I did a lot of research before I got my first purebred border collie. I got that dog (Willow) from RESCUE. That way I was assured of a dog that would fit my lifestyle AND mesh with the border collie x aussie I already had (also from a rescue group). The people I met when I got Willow (the rescuers) were the people who ultimately encouraged me to try my dogs on stock and were therefore my entre' into the stockdog world. (What was I really looking for at that time? An active, intelligent herding breed dog that could be my jogging partner. I was willing to take a special needs dog since my lifestyle at the time accommodated that. Willow was special needs in that she needed a lot of attention and work to get her accepting of people.) The push from the rescuers into herding was after I got my third young adult rescue (a private rescue through my vet this time) who happened to have papers (and some serious issues) and came from nice herding lines. My fourth dog, also an adult, was given to me as well, by the person who started me training and working dogs on stock. My fifth dog was a puppy. I was going to trials by then but was still a novice handler with a lot to learn. But I saw lots of different dogs working and saw some I really liked. One of those was recently bred and I happened to like the sire a whole lot too (personality, work style, and work ethic). So I got on the bitch's puppy list. My 6th dog was a retired open dog (adult) given to me to learn from by the person who was helping me teach that pup (Twist) to drive. My 7th dog I bought trained after my 6th dog was injured and the vets thought she may never work again. At the time the only working dog I had was Twist (that first pup), who was trained to the pro-novice level, and I needed another. My 8th dog was a pup, and actually from an accidental breeding, but I had been around stockdogs enough to know that I liked the lines (working ability) of the parents and so I took a pup. At 8 months she's already working very nicely. (And anyone who hasn't just joined recently knoows how numbers 9 & 10 came about.) I got involved with people who were knowledgeable about the breed--rescuers--who in turn set me on a path that led me to the working stockdog world (but they could have just as easily set me on a path to the agility or other dog sports world if I had expressed an interest in that). Along the way I learned a lot about the dogs and met a lot of working stockdog folk who also bred occasionally. By then I knew what I liked and people knew something about me, so it was relatively easy to find a pup that fit my desires and needs and someone willing to sell such a pup to me. So, you see, in truth all I am doing is advocating the same path I took. And I don't think that's elitist at all.

 

J.

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I guess I still don't get it, Julie P. You and I breed a litter very, very occasionally AFAIK. We are not the category of person whose name I would give to an enquirer like the OP (unless I had direct knowledge that a person like us happened to have pups at the moment that were not placed and needed to be, which sometimes happens). Only in the very limited PC sense that everyone who has ever bred a litter is a breeder would we be considered breeders.

 

OTOH, there are good border collie breeders who breed a few litters each year, and who place pups in non-working as well as working homes. They are making a positive contribution to the gene pool. They are able to make as much of a contribution as they do BECAUSE they can sell pups to a wider market than working homes. They are accustomed to screening applicants they don't know, and are able and willing to do so. They may even be listed on various "good breeder lists," but they most certainly are harder to find than the puppy mills whose pups are constantly found on puppyfind.com and on every breeder list they can worm or buy their way onto. If someone is interested in buying a border collie, I would prefer they go to a the good breeder rather than the puppymiller. Wouldn't you?

 

>

 

I can't say that I share your irritation. If I'm the first responder to such a person, I just ask them what they want the dog for, what their requirements are, whether they've had a border collie before, etc. How hard is that? It lets them know what *I* need to know to be of help to them, and hopefully a productive dialogue ensues. The OP provided such information when you asked -- why didn't that obviate the problem?

 

There seems to be an implication here that someone who just asks for referral to a good breeder is ipso facto not worthy to be told who a good breeder is. I just can't subscribe to that. I know too many good border collie owners who are on this Board -- heck, who are now open handlers and reliable defenders of the border collie -- who once upon a time would have asked that question. Yes, I think attending a sheepdog trial is a good way of going about finding a good breeder, and we recommend doing just that elsewhere on this site. But if someone is looking for a companion or sports dog, and doesn't think s/he would be able to discern anything useful by attending a trial, I don't think that disqualifies them from being pointed toward a good breeder. Maybe it even shows atypical realism and humility.

 

I am sorry and a little shocked about the way the OP has been treated. He or she asked a simple, reasonable question, only to be told that s/he was not in her/his right mind and that only someone who was also not in their right mind would provide the info requested. Farfetched assumptions, all of them bad, were made about the OP. A separate thread was even initiated to ridicule him/her. I consider myself someone who is concerned about the welfare of border collies, but I'm at a loss to understand this. I have to agree with iLLt3cK and others that this was not our finest hour.

 

>

 

That's a mighty big IF. Astronomically big. Of course ANYTHING one might do that results in more dogs in rescues / shelters / pounds or mistreated or bred when it should not have been is a disservice. But referring the OP to a good breeder is not likely to do that. Failing to refer the OP to a good breeder is much more likely to lead to that result, since bad breeders are so much easier to find, are more likely to confer a pup on an unsuitable buyer, and are enabled and encouraged to produce more pups by every purchase made from them.

 

Still feel the same way? >>

 

You bet! Anything that might lead to Jon Katz's being educated one iota would be a good thing. But Jon Katz would never ask.

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Originally posted by Eileen Stein:

OTOH, there are good border collie breeders who breed a few litters each year, and who place pups in non-working as well as working homes. They are making a positive contribution to the gene pool. They are able to make as much of a contribution as they do BECAUSE they can sell pups to a wider market than working homes. They are accustomed to screening applicants they don't know, and are able and willing to do so. They may even be listed on various "good breeder lists," but they most certainly are harder to find than the puppy mills whose pups are constantly to be found on puppyfind.com and on every breeder list they can worm or buy their way onto. If someone is interested in buying a border collie, I would prefer they go to a the good breeder rather than the puppymiller. Wouldn't you?

Of course I would Eileen, and you needn't even ask that question of me. I suppose where we differ/diverge is that I am not as familiar as you apparently are with the people who make up the breeder "pool" you describe in the paragraph above. Since I don't have good knowledge about those particular breeders, there's no way I could pass that information along. That doesn't mean I want the person to go to a puppymiller; it simply means that the knowledge I have (which is about occasional breeders) isn't likely to be practical for a person who's just asking for any good breeder. (And the very few breeders I know of who do seem to have plenty of pups available are not necessarily ones I would want to send business to on principle, but that's another topic.)

 

I can't say that I share your irritation. If I'm the first responder to such a person, I just ask them what they want the dog for, what their requirements are, whether they've had a border collie before, etc. How hard is that? It lets them know what *I* need to know to be of help to them, and hopefully a productive dialogue ensues.
Maybe it annoys me because I think a person seeking information should make it easy for the people from whom s/he is seeking help to provide that help. Over and over again on these boards (and other fora) I've seen people come and ask a question without fully explaining and then get upset when the people answering make valid (but ultimately erroneous) assumptions based on the limited information originally posted. Maybe this is simply a personal quirk resulting from the years I've spent writing about very technical scientific topics, but I just happen to really appreciate when people say what they really mean and provide enough background or explanation for anyone reading to gain a pretty good understanding of what's going on and why the question was posed. While some may consider that unreasonable, I consider it the most efficient way to get questions answered accurately. It's not about quashing dialog--it's about avoiding misunderstandings and assumptions and ultimately making truly useful answers available in the most timely fashion.

 

And in case you missed the comment made in my previous post, I did nicely ask the OP to give more information (so clearly I'm not opposed to asking), after which the OP edited the orginal post to add that information (which admittedly made my request look like something of a non sequitur since it then appeared that the OP had already answered those questions before I asked). So I wasn't even being combative or condescending or anything else when I wrote those questions--they were perfectly valid unanswered questions at the time and my way of trying to nicely point out that more information might be helpful.

 

There seems to be an implication here that someone who just asks for referral to a good breeder is ipso facto not worthy to be told who a good breeder is. I just can't subscribe to that. I know too many good border collie owners who are on this Board -- heck, who are now open handlers and reliable defenders of the border collie -- who once upon a time would have asked that question. Yes, I think attending a sheepdog trial is a good way of going about finding a good breeder, and we recommend doing just that elsewhere on this site.
I don't think I ever stated or even implied that a person asking the question isn't worthy of a referral. I stated *my* personal preference related to that matter, which is that I feel more comfortable referring someone I know as opposed to someone I don't know. Having such a preference doesn't somehow make me evil or imply that I think the person asking is a moron. And just because going to a trial or whatever is mentioned elsewhere on this site doesn't mean it doesn't bear repeating, especially given the apparent reluctance of newcomers to read the welcome post or use the search function.

 

But if someone is looking for a companion or sports dog, and doesn't think s/he would be able to discern anything useful by attending a trial, I don't think that disqualifies them from being pointed toward a good breeder. Maybe it even shows atypical realism and humility.
I don't disagree with this statement, but if a person posts that they are looking for a breeder and doesn't post that they are looking for a companion or pet, how are we to know which direction to send them? And that's basically what I said in my first response to the OP.

 

I am sorry and a little shocked about the way the OP has been treated. He or she asked a simple, reasonable question, only to be told that s/he was not in her/his right mind and that only someone who was also not in their right mind would provide the info requested.
Hmmm...I don't personally feel that I have treated the OP badly at all. But the discussion seems to have pretty much left the OP's original question in the dust as everyone bickers among themselves and presumes to tell the others how to behave. But that's not really atypical for discussions here either. I'm not saying it's right, just saying it's not unusual.

 

At any rate, I gave a nice long example of how I went about getting my first and subsequent dogs. Perhaps some will think that relating my own experiences is a waste of the OP's (and everyone else's) time, but the fact is that everyone's opinions and actions are shaped by their experiences, and those are the experiences upon which is based any advice I might give on this topic. And I think I've said quite enough on this subject.

 

J.

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Julie, I think you're taking my comments much more personally than I meant them. Basically, I only addressed you because you responded to the points I posted to Gary, and seemed thereby to be adopting and defending his position.

 

>

 

Can't disagree with that!

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It's funny, really.. When people ask me about breeders, I actually know better the breeders NOT to go to! There are lots of factors that go into deciding what pup goes where on the buyer and seller's behalf. It does take time, but asking lots of questions is a very good start.

Oh, and btw, Gary, those were rhetorical questions- just to illustrate!

Julie

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I'm going to add to this as a person who is going to trial a dog from a person who I know is disliked by this community for volume breeding.

 

She is a natural she will not be using their name and she is from a rescue but, she is an excellent dog all the same. I would say she personifies exactly what the person promises in a dog. Will I tell people her lines yes but, I will let them find the person themselves if they are so inclined.

 

I think all this arguing is counter productive. I dont think the forum has to be totally feel good but, it cant scare people away either.

 

Speaking only for myself If I'd left when a few select people toasted me over getting a puppy I might not have started to rescue. I mean we may have only helped 5 dogs this year but, it's a start.

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Here's a question for everyone to mull over.

 

If I have a litter of pups to sell, who here feels they are better qualified than me to select good homes for my pups?

 

By refusing to provide resorces (names) to potential puppy buyers you are essentially screening potential homes for a breeder. These homes could be bad, or they could be great. They even could be pet homes that turn into working/trialing homes. It is the breeder's responsibility to select appropriate homes for their pups, not yours. By all means suggest rescue; offer suggestions on what things they should consider before getting a dog. You could screen breeders (BYBs, puppy mills, etc) for buyers; but do not screen homes for someone else's litter of pups.

 

Mark

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I agree with Eileen,

i did alot of work looking for my last Bc and i asked lots of people and I went to trials sheep+ agility.

I get upset when someone asks about breeders and all they get is rescue info. Nothing is wrong with rescue my only problem with rescue is that Of early S/N policys and yes I understand why but not every one is out to breed there dog they just want to make the decission when to S/N there dog.

Iwas afraid to ask the good breeder question hear because My Bcs only occassionaly get to sheep but all 4 of my dogs go to agility trials , go hiking , swiming agility classes and get to train at home the get to be dogs and dig in the yard , All 4 sleep in the house get regular vet treatments and so on and so on . So I think my dogs do Ok but to ask about abreeder and get attached because I do not do Open trials is hard It is refreshing to see Eileens response . Ithink this thread was informative Thanks to all ,

bob

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Wow, Mark. So you're saying it's incumbent upon anyone asked to provide the names of breeders? I disagree, since I thought it was incumbent upon the breeder to find buyers for his/her pups, not the other way around (i.e., if anyone breeds a litter they should be finding buyers, NOT expecting some other random person to be sending buyers their way), but I've done enough arguing on this thread, so I'll leave it at that.

 

Bobh,

I think even you would agree that it's a bit of a stretch to state that you (or anyone else) was attacked "because I do not do Open trials." Making inflammatory statements with no basis in fact never adds much to a discussion.

 

J.

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No Julie, I'm trying to get people to think about what effects their actions (refusing to provide resources) may have on good breeders, not just potential buyers.

 

In addition, I note the gang mentality this topic (as well as a few others) produces in posters, its impact on newcomers to this board, and the potential impact it has on how readers view this board.

 

Mark

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