MARISTELA Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 I've been training two dogs that are about 1 year old. When they are not being trained, they stay in their kennels which are very comfortable and have much room. Should I spend more time with the dogs when not training? Should I take them to my garden and play with them, or should I leave them far from my house ( I live on a farm)so that they will be just concentrated on their work. I was told the dogs should follow me all around and spend more time near my home. On the other hand I have a bad experience with another BC that was too pampered and too close to my family. Does anybody have some advice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 I think the more time you spend with them, the better they become..I think leaving them locked in the kennel when not working them is not a good idea at all, of course just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 I agree with Sam. In my opinion, part of making a good worker is the partenrship/bond you have with the dog, and that doesn't happen if the dog sits in a kennel most of the time. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Spending time with your dogs does not necessarily mean spoiling them. I think letting them have some house and garden time with you, or just giving them each some informal training time at the house will enhance your relationship with the dogs. It will help them learn impulse control, and have respect for you. At a year old, they still need to be monitored, not just running free to do as they please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErinKate Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Did I miss when their fun time is? How about some down time from working? Chasing a ball, a frisbee, goofing off? You are controlling their every movement. That is warped. My dogs do not come in my house, but we spend more time at the barn than the house. You aren't giving them and REASON to work for you? They don't even know you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nannerl Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 I spend as much time as possible with my dogs. The relationship is the most important part of having a border collie, in my opinion. These dogs don't seem to have a problem with work ethic, so don't worry too much about them getting pampered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 Regardless of breed, dogs are pack animals. To me the more contact with people the better they are. Jackson has been with us 24/7 since bringing him home at 7wks. We never used a crate. We have a doggie door and fenced yard. We live on 10 acres so there is lots of exploring done TOGETHER. When I get my sheep this summer, his training of course will be every day. However, most of the people I have met since getting Jackson (my 1st BC)all keep their dogs kenneled unless working them. When they are let out of the kennel, it is so plain the dog knows it is going to work. Jackson has yet to stalk and "eye" sheep, but he does for his balls and other toys. So, until I find out how he does on sheep, I don't know if it was good or bad. But how to know if it is the constant being with us or just him? I know shepperds of yesterday, and probly some now, kept their dogs with them 24/7 but then, all the dogs were exposed to were sheep. They didn't chase balls and other toys. Hmmmmm,,,,,,,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 Dixie_Girl - It was not traditional for "collies" (working sheep dogs) to live in their owners' houses. They lived in kennels or barns when not with the farmer, because they were often much too dirty to come in the house, and the housese were often way too small to have several stockdogs inside. Kennel time also, after a long day out in the fields and about the farm with the farmer, was the dog's opportunity to have some "peace and quiet", time to eat, and time to sleep. My working stockdogs live in the house. The price they pay for that is a hosing down after chores, no matter what the weather, when they are dirty. They are crate-trained (which is a valuable thing to teach a dog, in case of emergency or need to stay at the vet's). I, like you, know a number of folks who kennel or crate their dogs much of the time. When it's done well, it seems to work just fine and the dogs are well adjusted. I am happy with my system but I'm sure it doesn't work for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 (face red) Guess I've been looking at too many of those "hallmark" pics showing the shepard and his dogs at the hearth of a nice fire! Well, I can see the benefits of teaching a dog to be crated. The first training day, we broke for lunch and I had no idea what to do with Jackson! Luckily, a nice guy, let me use one of his and he doubled up his dogs. Jackson did not bark or whine, just waited for me to return. Don't know what he will do if I crate him again,,,,,,,,now that he has had time to think it over,,,,,,,,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 Join the club of past, present, and future red faces! I'm not saying that working dogs never were "invited" into the house but I think it was probably the exception rather than the rule. You might find that Jackson adapts easily to a crate. I do think Border Collies "think things over" and I don't think that's a bad thing! I only use the crates occasionally but, when I need them, I sure am grateful the dogs are trained to be content and secure in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 Thanks Sue! Yep, I can see needing to get him used to the crate. I am in the process of teaching him to be tied to a fence etc. because I have also seen, at trials, training, etc. where this is also a useful thing. So once he is okay with that I will start him on the crate. I sure do appreciate this board and all the good folks on it. Learning and teaching each other. And even when there is disagreement everyone is still nice about it! Like you! Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 Dixie_Girl - Just one other word of unsolicited advice. Teach your dog to tie with a chain or cable so you don't teach him that he can chew his way loose! You will find good threads on crate-training if you search. I found that feeding Celt his meals and giving him his treats in the crate made it much easier. You don't shut the dog in initially, but just feed or treat in the crate. Eventually, you work up to shutting the door for short periods, etc. Don't let him out in response to his whining or fussing, but let him out when he is quiet so he doesn't learn that "complaining" will get him out. My dogs head for their crates now when we tell them to, and it is handy if we have to be gone a while, or are visiting someone and the dog needs to be crated there or while travelling, if we are at a trial or clinic or training and need to crate in or outside the car, etc. I used to think crating was "mean" like a kind of "doggie jail" (and it can be if misused) but now I know crate-training is a valuable dog skill and am very grateful to those who encouraged me to try it. Wow! Thanks for the compliment! Most folks try to be nice on this board. Many people I know who frequent other forums on the internet, find this one to be particularly polite and helpful in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 Sue, great idea on the chain or cable! Don't mind "unsolicited" advise at all! Idea on crate training sounds good too. Yeah, I know what you mean about the crates seeming like doggie jail! But I see where it is of benefit to have them at least used to it! Jackson has a doggie "sister", my muttly Cheyenne and the "real" boss of the house, my cat Sammy. Anyway, we have a doggie door that goes out to the fenced yard. After quite a few learning experiences, he no longer destroys the house! We left them once for three days,,,,an emergency trip to TN,,,,,,and when we came home all was well! Hurray! No, we don't make a habit of leaving them like that! But I was very proud of him! Cheyenne and Sammy could probly go forever alone as long as there was food and water! But it is nice to know I can go to town,,,,,,,,and not have to come home to a destroyed house! I will try the tips you gave and let you know how Jackson does! Thanks again! Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 Linda - Just remember to never leave your dog tethered out of sight unless you are absolutely certain it will be safe. I could have lost Celt this way when he was tethered in my old van. I'd done it with care and without incident many times. The last time I did it that way, he managed to get out a window and was hanging. The folks "next door" (in the RV at the trial) saw him and were kind enough to rescue him. They also kept an eye out for me to return and told me what happened as soon as I got back. I can't say he would have died if they hadn't come to his aid, but I can't say he would have been okay, either. That's why most folks at trials crate their dogs. If they can't, they chain them to the vehicle so the dogs can get underneath where it's cool and dry. Many commercial "dog chains" are the kind that can kink and get caught around a dog's leg. I use the "leash type" chain (snap on one end, hand loop on other) as it's smooth and less likely to tangle. A cable is nice because they rarely tangle and are covered with a smooth plastic that won't scratch a dog. It's very frustrating to have a dog that has learned to chew through a leash or rope tie because they will always know how to do it again. I tied Celt with his leather lead for several years but, when he thought I was going to be out with sheep and without him one day, he chewed through it. There were some "extenuating circumstances" but he learned a bad lesson. Now I have to use a chain leash to tie in a "tempting" situation. Keep us posted on Jackson's progress! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 10-4 on the advise! Gee, that must have been scary for you! Not to mention Celt! Thank goodness for caring people! Yeah, if it happens once they know it for 200yrs.! I hope and pray every day he never learns he can easly clear our 4ft. fence we used to create a backyard! It is "field fencing" and I never let him put his feet on it so hopefully he will not learn! Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest grscott Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 Originally posted by Dixie_Girl:(face red) Guess I've been looking at too many of those "hallmark" pics showing the shepard and his dogs at the hearth of a nice fire! Well, I can see the benefits of teaching a dog to be crated. The first training day, we broke for lunch and I had no idea what to do with Jackson! Luckily, a nice guy, let me use one of his and he doubled up his dogs. Jackson did not bark or whine, just waited for me to return. Don't know what he will do if I crate him again,,,,,,,,now that he has had time to think it over,,,,,,,,, As an aside, a trainer, whose name every one of you knows, told me once, "How can you have a dog work his heart out for you all day, and not give him a place by the fire when the work is done?" Complicates the thought processes, doesn't it? Those Hallmark cards weren't total figments of the imagination. Obviously, it's not practical for everyone, but there are multiple schools of thought on this. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 GR, yeah, I know what you mean. But I think what Sue was refering to was MY stating sheperds of old time. And I know it is impractical for some to have a full time in the house BC! And she DID say there is nothing wrong with doing it! BTW I haven't seen you here before, so may I say welcome? Also, where in The Great Republic of Texas are you? I was born in Houston and also lived in Abilene. Wish I was in San Antonio....but where I am is really cool too! But you can take the girl outta Texas but never will get the Texas out of the girl! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Personally, I don't think playing fetch with working dogs is a good idea. They can get obsessive and stupid about it, and if you have a few dogs it can lead to needless skirmishes. I'm not a Nazi about it, but I try to discourage family and friends from throwing things for the dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Then there are the "pallet palace's" where some stock dog trainers keep dogs. Yes, these are 4x4 pallets, secured together, which the dogs live in. There are also those rabbit hutch types, where the dog stands on the wire, and there is a 50 gallon drum coming off it for protection. No way I accept this. Should not be done, PERIOD. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Personally, I don't think playing fetch with working dogs is a good idea. They can get obsessive and stupid about it, and if you have a few dogs it can lead to needless skirmishes. I'm not a Nazi about it, but I try to discourage family and friends from throwing things for the dogs. Bill, this is something that I wondered about when I realized how obsesive Jackson was getting about his toys when he was just a young pup. What to do now? I can not get my own sheep until this summer when he will be about 18 mos. old, and then if I can find any suitable to buy. The initial "master plan" was that I would have had sheep by last summer. But because of several things that were beyond my control it didn't happen. If I have done ANYTHING to ruin Jackson from realizing his full potential it will kill me. Don't get me wrong,,,,,,he is a great dog in and of his self,,,,,but he was bred and bought to work sheep..............Now I will have this to fret over,,,,,any advise? From anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Originally posted by Dixie_Girl:I can not get my own sheep until this summer when he will be about 18 mos. old, and then if I can find any suitable to buy. If I have done ANYTHING to ruin Jackson from realizing his full potential it will kill me. Now I will have this to fret over,,,,,any advise? From anyone? Advice - Lighten up. It takes some doing to "ruin" a good dog but you will have some mistakes or bad habits to overcome. Unless (and, even if) you are a very experienced farm/ranch stockdog handler/trainer or a top-notch Open handler/trainer, you are going to make mistakes, period. Even the very best trainers/handlers out there can tell you they make mistakes (at least the ones that are honest about it). Get over it, don't fret about it, learn and implement what you can from clinics, trainers, books, boards, etc., and learn from your mistakes. People don't come into this world as full-blown handler/trainers, knowing how to do just about everything with different dogs on varied stock on a variety of fields and situations. They all had to start somewhere, and build their knowledge and experience step-by-step. There's an old saying that you ruin your first dog. I refuse to believe that but I sure have made a number of mistakes, hope I've learned from them, expect to make quite a number more, and hope to keep learning. Meanwhile, my dog is already progressing to be a useful and capable farm dog, maybe never more than a low-level trial dog (because I may never be more than a low-level trial handler), and my dear and faithful constant companion. Our other dog just doesn't have the same "quality" born in her, and will never step foot on a trial field, isn't as well-rounded in the farm work, and is just as dear and faithful. Now, there are many opinions about a number of things concerning stock dogs. Some folks believe they stay in the kennel unless training or working because it'll make them keener on stock and undistracted. I don't agree with this - my dogs have a life and it's not just as stockdogs. They are also companions, live in the house, go to town and the store, play ball, play in the pond, etc. That's my choice. If it means that my dog is a "little less" of a stockdog, so be it. That's what I choose and I think it provides a good, well-rounded and socialized life for my dogs and satisfies me. Some folks feel you can never "play" with a stockdog. I don't agree. My husband has a job and he has other things he enjoys doing. My dogs have their job on the farm, and they'd rather do that than anything. But, when they are not working, I have no problem with them being house dogs, walking companions, travel buddies, ball fetchers, etc. My opinion, period. There are folks on this board who have lots of experience raising and training stockdogs, and they all know a lot more than I do. I think there is more than one way to do a number of things, and sometimes different methods work better for some folks than others, and for some dogs than others. Expect to make mistakes and use them as an opportunity to learn. When I mess up with my dog, sure it bothers me. But I just have to pick myself up, figure out what I did wrong, and get to fixing it. And, if he is never anything more than the "heartbeat at my feet" that does his best for me as I fumble through learning myself while I'm trying to train him, I will be content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 People don't come into this world as full-blown handler/trainers, knowing how to do just about everything with different dogs on varied stock on a variety of fields and situations. They all had to start somewhere, and build their knowledge and experience step-by-step. Well, gee, there goes another bubble bursted! Seriously, I know what you mean, really. I guess it's just that this is NOT a spur of the moment thing with me! The first time I saw a BC was at a trial they had in Lebec CA. They were just so awesome! I grew up in the country, it has always been my dream to have a few cattle, and sheep. Investigating about this "new" dog, that from the distance I was, (I was driving truck, and on my way north from L.A. so it was from the side of the freeway I watched them!)seemed to just do everything on his own, I knew I had to experience this my self. I had been in contact with the breeder for 2 1/2 yrs. before finally Jackson was a reality. So, this said, I reckon that is why the high anxiety! I do, if I may blow my own horn, have a good repore(sp?)with most dogs. And yeah I know I will make mistakes. But as you said, Jackson is a totaly awesome dog in so many ways, if he or most likely I, fail, he will still have a place in my home and heart! Whew! Sorry so long winded, but I just wanted you to know "where" I was in this.............I truly admire the breed, and adore Jackson. He is a part of this family, and hopefully he will also be able to work sheep. At least enough for us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 And Sue, I do want you to know I appreciate the time you have taken with me and my posts! I hope someday we will get to meet up face to face at a trial or something! Thanks! Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Linda - You just scared me with "If I have done ANYTHING to ruin Jackson from realizing his full potential it will kill me". I've been enjoying myself "conversing" with you. I am a novice also and I have really appreciated the good folks on the boards (and elsewhere) who have been patient with me and given me advice and support. See you someday, maybe! I don't get beyond southern VA usually but you never know who you'll run into... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest grscott Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Originally posted by Dixie_Girl:GR, yeah, I know what you mean. But I think what Sue was refering to was MY stating sheperds of old time. And I know it is impractical for some to have a full time in the house BC! And she DID say there is nothing wrong with doing it! BTW I haven't seen you here before, so may I say welcome? Also, where in The Great Republic of Texas are you? I was born in Houston and also lived in Abilene. Wish I was in San Antonio....but where I am is really cool too! But you can take the girl outta Texas but never will get the Texas out of the girl! I'm in that disgusting ole "Hill Country". Don't know what I see in this place. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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