Second Guessing

[sixx]

This puppy sounds oh so familiar! Cedar was like this when I first brought her home, except she loved toys and cuddling with the humans... made up for her initial terrorizing acts. It only took about a month of routine and learning that she was part of the pack and she became amazing!

 

I would also suggest getting an adult dog. I got Seek when she was 6 months old and she was the best pup ever! IMO when a border collie hits around 6 months, they become amazingly fun companions! They are old enough to have more endurance to run around and go on hikes and do more activities. You can start pre agility at that age, which is my passion. Waiting to do agility with Cedar seems like forever. At this stage it's all obedience and foundation work, which is very much needed, but not as exciting. With an adult rescue, you're likely to get a trained dog who is old enough to do dog sports, and you know much of their personality.

 

JMO

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

Like my friend Julie, I dislike training sulky sheepdogs but . . .

 

My Harry was the most natural dog I've ever owned - 48-50 points to my feet, few to no commands needed. But Harry hated being told what to do. I tried desperately to get someone better to train him but no luck. Needs must, I persisted and at three years old Harry came closest I've ever come - 1 point out - to the top 17 at the Lexington 1 Finals.

 

Not much later, Harry started doing weird things on the course and I assumed it was that old devil sulkiness. I didn't punish him but I sure felt like it. I wasn't real happy with myself when I learned Harry had a bad heart.

 

Donald McCaig

[Shetlander]

find a pup from a good breeder, pick a social laid back little guy and sign up for puppy classes from a reputable training facility. Then continue with classes. Having a knowledgable trainer or resource throughout your life and journer with your pet is probably the best advice I could give you....

 

Excellent advice. And it's important to have confidence in your training methods, too. The people I know who have dogs who hate crates for instance, often are uncomfortable or ambivalent about crating. They tended to not view crates as a good thing (they are a very good thing in my book!) and didn't seem to do much to help the dog see the crate as good. My dogs all run to their crates when told to. They seek out their crates on their own to sleep in. If they are unwise, they get into scuffles with each other over who gets the crate (and then no one gets the crate). Only my Lhasa is still crated when I leave the house but all three dogs like crates and are fine if told to crate up.

 

Another word about sulky Border Collies. For a Drama Queen, Quinn is also a high drive dog who loves to do stuff. Ignoring his sulks, joking him out of it when training him or, when he was taking sheep lessons, being given the opportunity to work stock way over shadowed his moments of pouting. He is a truly fun dog to train and live with. Actually, he's the most fun dog I've ever had, with a happy, loving, eager to please nature and a fantastic sense of humor. But yup, he can be a bit dramatic at times.

[Maralynn]

I get this huge complex when it comes to this stuff. I mean what if I try crating a dog who sulks, do I now have to worry that they're going to hate their crate or am I going to have to worry that if they love their crates that putting them in the crate will cause them to continue the unwanted behavior. I know training dogs isn't... rocket science. It seems more artistic, unfortunately I'm not terribly artistic and wish there was like a formula to follow which would always equate to the perfect dog.

 

I need some confidence building training.

 

I think you're over analyzing the whole thing

 

Out of 3 Border Collies I haven't had a sulky one yet. Soft? yes. Over the top and can't think? yes. ADD? yes. You build a bond, you teach them what you expect, you keep training time rewarding for both of you. You give them boundaries that are fair and consistent. You teach them how do deal with pressure so if you have to correct them, the world doesn't come to an end. You take baby steps and work at the dogs pace. Doing these will take care of about 99% of the issues that might pop up in dog training

 

I've got 3 pretty well adjusted dogs that came to me from three very different back grounds. The only thing I really knew about Border Collies before getting one was that they were sheep dogs and needed something to do to keep them happy and out of trouble. Everything else I pretty much learned as I went along. So relax and enjoy the learning process. Aybody that is this conciencious before hand will do just fine

[rushdoggie]

I sometimes think "sulky" and "soft" are just a matter of perspective - I don't even mean whether one should like working with them or not, I just mean how the handler chooses to perceive the dog's behaviour based on their own criteria and/or bias.My stockdog trainers called Piper "sulky" - when she got upset she quit and this was perceived as her willfully not doing what they wanted because it wasn't what she wanted to do. My agility trainer calls her "soft" and insists that when she doesn't understand what I want she doesn't know what to do...

 

 

You know, this isn't something that I've actually run into a lot with my Border Collies. They generally are very eager to work with me. And when I have found any reluctance, I have been able to pinpoint, every time, what was causing the avoidance response, and then I've been able to handle the situation accordingly. Often what is considered "sulkiness" can often be traced to stress, or to the dog not fully understanding what is being expected, or simple lack of motivation.

 

 

I wasn't real happy with myself when I learned Harry had a bad heart.Donald McCaig

 

I have to agree with RDM, Root Beer and Donald here.

 

I can't say I have ever met a sulky dog. I have met dogs who were independent, not as quick to catch on and frustrated by humans who were unclear, but I can't say I have ever met a sulky dog of any breed. I should add I have lived with a LOT of dogs over the years as dogs of my own (around 12) and as foster dogs (upwards of 40).

 

Just about every "obstinate," or "sulky," or "will full" dog I have met turned out turned out to be confused or had some kind of issue. The dog who "didn't care about keeping bars up" turned out to have a back problem. The dog who "willfully peed on his owners clothes" had separation anxiety. The dog who "refused to go out and pee in the snow just to prove his point" was shorter than the snow pack and it covered her belly, and when offered a shoveled out place became very compliant. The dog who "refused to stay in he group stays at a trial" had a seriously bad association at a trial and was afraid.

 

That's not to say a dog doesn't have a personality, can't get mad or just choose to do something that he has been taught to not do because they payoff was too tempting, but in my experience pretty much every dog I have met was willing to do as they were asked because they understood the criteria and consequences (positive or negative) and I find I am a much better trainer when I quit taking this kind of thing personally, step back and look at the big picture.

 

YMMV.

[Maralynn]

I think there is also a huge difference between choosing a dog for a pet and choosing a dog with a job in mind. For example, Kristine was able to choose a dog that had apparent issues because she was looking for a dog to train rather than a dog for a job. It's great that her dog is coming out of it's shell and is showing great promise. But I would have passed over the dog because I didn't see what I was looking for and it wasn't worth it for me to take a chance.

 

I work with the dogs I've got and work through issues that arise. Kenzi is moving slower in SAR training than I'd like. But she still seems to have all the right pieces to the puzzle and is still making progress. No biggee, it's a work in progress and she's still making progress.

 

But since I have chosen dogs with a job in mind, I expect them to have certain characteristics - and choose accordingly. A need to work, a high desire for the reward and the ability to get the job done. If I didn't see those in a dog I was selecting for work. I wouldn't get the dog. When things pop up after I've got the dog I'm not going to just give up, or blame the dog - trust me, I work through lots of different issues with mine. I've already got a pretty good idea of what the dog is capable of, that it has a pretty solid temperament and can take a certain amount of pressure . I'm going to look first at my foundation work and if there is something wrong there. I'll look at my training methods to make sure they're clear. I'll ask other for their opinions of the situation. I'll rule out physical issues. FWIW, I think handler error is the #1 cause of issues in dogs. But if for some reason I go through all of these and the dog just isn't showing aptitude or desire for the job, then I'm not going to continue on training it in that area.

[Root Beer]

I think there is also a huge difference between choosing a dog for a pet and choosing a dog with a job in mind. For example, Kristine was able to choose a dog that had apparent issues because she was looking for a dog to train rather than a dog for a job. It's great that her dog is coming out of it's shell and is showing great promise. But I would have passed over the dog because I didn't see what I was looking for and it wasn't worth it for me to take a chance.

 

I don't really see any problem with screening a dog beforehand to assess whether or not the dog is likely to be a good candidate for what one wants to do with the dog. It seems to me to be very good sense. Even in the case of a pet, there are often criteria that the dog must meet in order to be a good fit for a certain individual or household. That could be because there are children in the house that the dog must be safe around, or other animals, or any number of things. Not every dog is suited to every household situation. Not every dog is suited for competitive sports, for that matter. While there is probably a lot more leeway in a pet situation since expectations are generally not as specialized, the right fit for the right household can be the difference, as we both know very well, between the dog having a good quality home life and ending up in a rescue or shelter.

 

In spite of the fact that Tessa was highly fearful and almost completely shut down and I did go into it knowing that she might not be able to do any of the things that I love to do with my dogs, I still saw the potential that she had and decided that the risk was worth taking. As time goes on and her true character is beginning to show forth more and more, it is becoming clear that I made the correct assessment about her. I suspected, even back in October when she was still very seriously shut down, that the dog I have been waiting years for had just suddenly showed up in our home.

 

In the few weeks that I had her as a foster before adopting her, I watched her run and play with the dogs in the yard. I saw her jump and extend and collect and turn. I saw her become quite independent when she was engaged in play with the other dogs, while still mindful of my presence and sensitive to my movement and position relative to her. I saw that once she began to recover physically, she was fast. I saw her beautiful gait and her natural elegance. No artistry or creativity was apparent, but that could hardly be expected in her state at the time, though, I did see her show some interest in music. I observed her running out of the room when she was overwhelmed during her first training sessions (which consisted of me handing her treats), but then come back, in spite of herself, for more - not yet eager, willing, or trusting, but just the tiniest bit curious and slightly interested. And even when she ran away from me, or from something in the house that spooked her, I saw her go to one of her safe places, immediately recover, and make a deliberate decision about what she would do next. Granted, those glimpses were few and far between when she was mostly shut down, overwhelmed, and trusted my dogs far more than she trusted me. But I did see those things, and I couldn't help but see what she just might be underneath her survival mask.

 

The bottom line is that I had a pretty good sense that I was seeing exactly what I was looking for in her. And while it is true that I could have been wrong about that, I knew that the risk of losing what I've been wanting in a dog for a long time if I let her go was far greater than the risk of her turning out to be too far gone to be able to become normal, confident dog, and an excellent sport partner. If I hadn't seen that in her, I most likely would not have adopted her, even while at the same time I was 100% willing to give her a great life and home if I turned out to be wrong and she would be "just a pet" like Sammie. I could tell that probably wasn't going to happen, though.

 

After training, competing, performing, and working for years with dogs who have temperament challenges, I've learned the value of a solid temperament in a dog. Once it became apparent to me that Tessa's temperament is remarkably solid and that her fears were most likely learned through her experience surviving for months as a stray, and that she was most likely not a fearful dog by nature, I knew that spending the time needed to assist her with working through those fears was most likely going to result in a normal, confident dog. It was a risk, but not one that I made blindly. I was pretty sure . . .

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Rushdoggie writes:

 

"I have to agree with RDM, Root Beer and Donald here.

 

I can't say I have ever met a sulky dog."

 

I'm afraid I didn't make myself clear. Harry was sulky as a young dog and later, though cured of sulkiness, developed a heart problem that mimicked sulkiness. There are sulky sheepdogs, some of them great ones: Harry's father was one and Johnny Templeton told me Wiston Cap was another.

 

I can work with sulky sheepdogs or the rare sheepdog with an independent mind (not quite the same thing). Some very soft dogs seem sulky but that's because the range within which they can accept commands is very narrow and dependent on the bond with their owner. I've seen dogs like this, in beginners' hands, turn out fairly well because the beginners put their hearts into their dog while more experienced handlers wouldn't have taken the time.

 

If I found another Harry, I'd work through his sulkiness - a perfect outrun, lift and fetch is not to be despised. I wouldn't have time for a less talented sulky dog.

 

Can't resist another Harry story. When he was about 18 months, before he'd learned to drive, I entered him in the Wilson's trial - 600 yards up a steep hill, great lightly dogged Cheviots . . .

 

Harry did his patented outrun, lift and fetch -lost one point to my feet, and without any hope at all I turned him onto the drive. Tommy Wilson was spotting and the sheep got away to join Harry's. The run was a muxup and we didn't do well on our rerun and Tommy was mortified. I knew our run was over: Harry couldn't drive. Tommy thought he'd spoiled the winning run.

 

I confess I didn't fess up as promptly as I might have.

 

Donald McCaig

[rushdoggie]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Rushdoggie writes:

 

"I have to agree with RDM, Root Beer and Donald here.

 

I can't say I have ever met a sulky dog."

 

I'm afraid I didn't make myself clear. Harry was sulky as a young dog and later, though cured of sulkiness, developed a heart problem that mimicked sulkiness.

 

I wasn't clear either when I lumped you together. I simply meant that your Harry had a good reason to be "sulky" as he clearly didn;t feel well when his heart started having problems.

 

My ex husbands Molly was an amazing and beautiful sport dog from Kuykendall working lines (her father was Imp. Celt). He adored her and she adored him (and hated me, lol). She was a spectacular agility dog when the sport was in its infancy, and had a UDX and tracked. When learning agility, she often chose speed over actually clearing the obstacles and would often plow right through the jumps. She learned how to jump well and that jumping was required, eventually and did very well in agility. At about age 9, she started dropping bars again. A vet exam showed no obvious skeletal issues, and she was happy to chase squirrels and frisbee so her bar dropping was chalked up to obstinate behavior, and "just wanting to do it her own way." She was a hard and often bitchy bitch throughout her life. My ex was got angry and frustrated with her, and she would then refuse to work at all and growl under her breath.

 

It wasn't for another year that her back issues surfaces into real life, and we discovered she indeed had a minor skeletal issue and that she was having muscle spasms along her back and that jumping seemed to aggravate them. He (my ex) was upset, realizing his dog was willing to work agility despite what were painful muscle spasms because she loved him and working with him so much. She "sulked" because he was asking things of her she wasn't capable of doing and she hurt and was frustrated with him.

 

Since then, I always assume there's a reason for this kind of behavior.

 

Again, YMMV.

[ejano]

How does someone deal with a dog that's being manipulative?

 

This is very interesting, I've never heard of such a thing.

I've been learning a great deal from this thread as Robin does have his sulks now and again, mostly when he's been corrected, or forbidden to do something he'd really like to do.

 

I didn't really know how to stop them, until we until we started on sheep. During one of our lessons, he didn't get his way,and he pulled his act - it was quite obvious that when he tucked his left paw beneath his chest and turned his head to his shoulder, much like a chicken tucking its head under his wing, he was "sulking" because he didn't get his way.

 

"Was I too hard on him?" I asked my trainer as I stared haplessly down at my dog.

 

"No. He's trying to make you feel guilty," was the reply. "And it's working."

 

"What do I do?"

 

"Ignore him."

 

So, I made sure he was secured by the long line, and for extra measure, had my foot on the line so he couldn't get very far and turned my back to him, and sure enough, within a minute or two, he'd popped back up, "I'm ready, coach...ready to get back in the game."

 

Naturally, he had to sit there for a little while until I decided he was ready to go again, but it was an important lesson, at least for working with Robin. His willfulness would not be conquered by anything less than respect.

 

I like him more for this, not less. He's not an easy dog, especially for a beginner. He challenges me; makes me think about how to develop a partnership with him; how to communicate with him.