Second Guessing

[Root Beer]

Aww. That is sweet. I admire your dedication to positive training. I'm not one for smacking dogs, but I did lose my patience with Quinn when he went through his nipping period.

 

Back when I made that choice I had not heard of positive training, or any kind of training.

 

When I was a kid, we had a dog. My father raised him by whacking him on the nose with a rolled up newspaper when the dog did something he didn't like. For his entire life, you could not hold your hand over that dog's head to pet him without him cringing, expecting the newspaper to fly. I didn't like that, even as a kid who knew nothing about training dogs.

 

So, when we got our puppy, I made the decision not to hit him. I wanted to be able to hold my hand over his head and have him expect to be petted, not smacked. When he nipped as a puppy, I did what made sense to me and lo and behold, he quickly stopped nipping, and I can hold my hand over his head and he expects something good to happen. Not bad for a first time raising a puppy, and a Border Collie puppy, at that.

 

Not every choice that I make is because of a dedication to positive training, and I'm not the one who tried to shift the discussion in that direction (not that you said I was!!). The point I was making is that some puppies actually are much easier than the one the OP dogsat. While that point is certainly up for debate, I'd be surprised if anyone really holds the opinion that all puppies are exactly like that one, or that I somehow stumbled upon the only puppy in the world who had a pretty easy time getting past the early nipping stage.

[Maralynn]

 

The point I was making is that some puppies actually are much easier than the one the OP dogsat. While that point is certainly up for debate, I'd be surprised if anyone really holds the opinion that all puppies are exactly like that one, or that I somehow stumbled upon the only puppy in the world who had a pretty easy time getting past the early nipping stage.

 

Some are easier, some are harder. I think they all can be managed/trained if you're up to the breed you selected, but just telling them not too won't work for most pups. Nipping is very common with high drive, high energy breeds. Your method worked with your pup, but with many other pups (Border Collie even) you're just going to get your face, arm, leg chewed up - because it is highly self rewarding to bite and chew!

 

From all your descriptions of Speedy it sounds like he is a pretty soft dog overall. Soft dogs are a whole lot different than a more confident one.

[Heather Rae]

Some are easier, some are harder. I think they all can be managed/trained if you're up to the breed you selected, but just telling them not too won't work for most pups. Nipping is very common with high drive, high energy breeds. Your method worked with your pup, but with many other pups (Border Collie even) you're just going to get your face, arm, leg chewed up - because it is highly self rewarding to bite and chew!

 

From all your descriptions of Speedy it sounds like he is a pretty soft dog overall. Soft dogs are a whole lot different than a more confident one.

How can you tell a soft dog from a confident dog and what issues come from either side?

[brady's mom]

How can you tell a soft dog from a confident dog and what issues come from either side?

 

Soft dogs don't take correction well, from what I understand. They get upset if they're yelled at and may shut down or kind of cringe (we have a chihuahua that does that; if you raise your voice at him, he'll roll over and pee on himself). Confident dogs can mentally handle much, much more. You can use a firmer tone with them and they won't mentally shut down. We have both types of dogs in the house. Brady (my Border Collie boy) is a super confident puppy who can take any situation with stride. If he gets verbally corrected he just kind of looks at you like, "Oh, so that's what I did wrong," and then goes on his merry way. Peanut, my mom's Chi, is a super soft dog; mostly because of the situation he was raised in before he came here. You can't raise your voice, or even use a firm tone, with him because he'll tense up and just mentally shut down. Usually, he rolls over and pees on himself--we try and be really careful with him, because those kind of situations (or really, any situation that's not calm and collected) really stresses him out.

 

ETA: I'm just going off of personal experience, so if I got anything wrong let me know! =D

[Shetlander]

Nipping is very common with high drive, high energy breeds. Your method worked with your pup, but with many other pups (Border Collie even) you're just going to get your face, arm, leg chewed up - because it is highly self rewarding to bite and chew!

 

That is exactly what I ran into during Quinn's nipping phase. He seemed to think it was hysterical to bite my shin as he ran by and then was immediately on to much more interesting things than me. When my other puppies chewed too hard on me (I don't mind inhibited biting in pups as long as they stop when told to), they very much wanted to keep interacting with me. So my making a "ow!" sound and stopping all play for 15 - 30 seconds, then offering my hand back made a big impact on them and they'd be much more gentle in their play.

 

With Quinn, it was more like an annoying kid who whaps his sibling on the back of the head as he goes about his day. Just cuz he could and it amuses him to do so. My previously successful technique meant nothing to him, which summed up most of my puppy raising techniques when it came to Quinn. He really made me think outside the box and become a more proactive trainer of small, wee beasties.

 

How can you tell a soft dog from a confident dog and what issues come from either side?

 

Soft generally translates into sensitive and there obviously is a range. But with sensitive dogs, you want to use mild corrections or stick to positive reinforcement and negative punishment (time out type corrections). Otherwise, you can end up with dogs who are overly cautious, lack confidence or are easily frightened by people. My Shelties fell into that category.

 

Then there are hard dogs -- tough, confident, pushy -- again there is a continuum. They can take more in the way of corrections and punishments but that doesn't mean they necessarily need that level of corrections. It just isn't as likely to shut them down as you might find in a softer dog. The thing to be careful of with hard dogs is if you don't find a way to effectively get the behaviors you want, then you can end up with an unruly, spoiled even dangerous dog who thinks he gets to run the show. This doesn't mean you need to be harsh but you do want to be the one who is in charge. My Shelties thinking they are in charge would be annoying but they are gentle, sweet creatures so other than the obnoxious factor, you'd be at least safe. A harder dog might come to think he gets to decide who is allowed in the house, who gets to sit in that chair and did he say you can get on the bed? Worst, that dog might believe he gets to punish people and animals who break his rules and you end up with a biter.

 

The hardest tempered dogs I've had have been both my Lhasas. They look like teddy bears but they are unbelievably pushy, stubborn, territorial and downright irrepressible (believe me, I've tried to repress them ). Chili's obedience instructor commented that he is so hard that punishment has next to no meaning for him. I think you'd need to be sickeningly brutal to make an impression on him. For that reason, he has done exceptionally well with mainly a clicker approach to training and is quite the charmer. Few people truly understand what a toad he can be at times.

 

Quinn is an interesting combination of hard and soft traits. I do need to keep on top of some manipulative, controlling behaviors he will do with my other dogs. In some ways I am quite strict with him, especially compared to the way I was with my Shelties, but he responds well to firm boundaries and only tests them on occasion (just to see if they are still there). I don't hit him or do more than a collar grab/scold for really naughty behaviors but will give him verbal corrections and make him lie down when he gets rowdy or wild. Knowing I am in charge and what is expected of him is very important for him, leaving him to be a happy, goofy boy who doesn't over-indulge in his fondness for controlling the environment.

[Dex BC]

Every puppy is different; no matter what breed. My Border Collie was the easiest dog in the puppy phase that I've had so far.

 

My last Golden Retreiver was terrible and almost un-trainable: hard to house train, constantly bitting me and my son on a regular basis,etc. She turned into a good dog eventually but the first year was horrible. In Contrast, my first Golden was great in the puppy phase.

 

It's important to choose your puppy carefully to suit your personality. I would suggest staying away from a breeder wihich does not allow you to choose the puppy yourself or spend any social time prior to purchase.

 

 

[Maralynn]

How can you tell a soft dog from a confident dog and what issues come from either side?

 

My Missy is a soft dog. All she needs is a "no" for a correction. She gets nervous a bit easy and if she's unsure she tends to shut down a bit. However her desire to please is very high as is her drive. These both help negate some of the negative effects of her softer temperament.

 

Kipp is the "takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'" dog. He was quiet indifferent to me until we had really formed a good bond. He is much more persistent and really needs to be trained as opposed to just telling him "no". He has become very motivated to please me (it is a Border Collie thing after all) and much more in tune to me with work. He is a goofy, sweet little dog, but he is a bit more resilient and pushy than Missy.

 

I prefer a dog that isn't as soft. One that can kind of roll with the punches and is a bit more forgiving when I mess up.

 

They can take more in the way of corrections and punishments but that doesn't mean they necessarily need that level of corrections. It just isn't as likely to shut them down as you might find in a softer dog.

 

I really like this^^ a "harder" temperament doesn't really mean a harder dog to work with - BCs have been bred to work with and please you. They're just going to keep you on your toes a little more and most likely be a much more versatile dog as they mature.

[Root Beer]

Some are easier, some are harder. I think they all can be managed/trained if you're up to the breed you selected, but just telling them not too won't work for most pups. Nipping is very common with high drive, high energy breeds. Your method worked with your pup, but with many other pups (Border Collie even) you're just going to get your face, arm, leg chewed up - because it is highly self rewarding to bite and chew!

 

I would agree that for many puppies, a different strategy would be needed. There are lots of options, and I personally would choose one that is in line with the way I train, but there are endless approaches within that framework to choose from. I managed it quite nicely with a grabby 10 moth old, who had 10 months to practice the habit before coming into our home, so I'm pretty confident it is something I will be able to handle with future puppies without being chewed up. Far off in the future though they may be. But that is really beside the point for the purposes of this thread.

 

Again, my point was not that most puppies are easy, but that all Border Collie puppies are not the same as the one the OP described - my reference to Speedy, who was an easy puppy, was simply an example to illustrate that point. If she is still interested in a puppy (although I think an adult dog would be a fantastic option for her to consider), she is not guaranteed to end up with a puppy like the one she dogsat.

[Root Beer]

How can you tell a soft dog from a confident dog and what issues come from either side?

 

A good way to think of soft is compliant. A soft dog is generally cooperative and willing to go along with the structures that you put in place, once those are clear and understood. You may need to go out of your way to cultivate a willingness to offer behaviors and try things independently in a soft dog.

 

I think of the opposite of soft as bold, independent, and more self reliant. These are the dogs who think first and ask questions later. They tend to need to know more of the "why" before they are on board with the "what". They can be more headstrong, and they thrive on having the opportunity to offer behaviors and try things independently.

 

Issues that come with a soft dog can include a lack of confidence, a need for more support from the owner/handler, and training to foster more independence. Advantages - once you build that confidence, soft dogs are super sweet, highly loyal, and incredible training partners.

 

Issues that come with a bolder dog include the need for the handler to practice patience and to learn to appreciate what the dog is bringing to the table, while helping the dog learn to accept and appreciate the structures that he or she needs to learn to live by. Advantage - confidence - it's a beautiful thing! Once the dog is looking to the handler for direction and knows to comply with directives, these dogs are just plain fun.

 

I finally, finally have a bold, gusty dog who has a good strong mind of her own and isn't afraid to tell it like it is. I love my softer dogs, but the bolder dog is beyond amazing. I like both, and I like working with both. Both have unique gifts to bring into the training partnership.

[shysheperdess]

I think people need to be aware of putting there dogs in categories or labeling them either "hard" or "soft".....there is a wide variation of hard and soft and often some people can mistake a more clever hard dog for a soft dog and not handle them accordingly....

 

I know several instances of owners coming to our training facility and for herding lessons who insisted there dog was a "soft" dog and therefore didn't want to put there dog in an uncomfortable situation or have any sort of correction present for there dogs behavior. These dogs would cower or "turn off""shut down" in the face of a correction or in herding, having any kind of pressure put on them. They had learned to manipulate there owners into getting things "there way or the high way"...as long as things went as they wanted they were fine, as soon as they didn't they were not inclined to "play" anymore and wanted to sulk...

 

Through careful steps helping theses dogs learn how to HANDLE pressure, they actually became more confident. They had to work through it.

 

I know a top USBCHA trainer/handler who I had a long conversation about this issue with. She would have a young dog working boldy and confidently, taking pressure and it's release beautifuly, not sulking or quiting.....then when she sold these dogs to people who didn't keep the dog honest, who wouldn't correct when necessary or keep expecations up for the dog, they would send them back and they would be just that way, sulky...not wanting to take pressure, etc. and would need to get through it again. These were not "soft" dogs per say...they just weren't held accountable or worked to meet there potential...the tolerance to pressure and how to manage them can be built up in most dogs over time if they are raised and trained right.

 

I actually have found it rare to meet a truly "soft" dog...

[shysheperdess]

There are Definetly more biddable pups...one's that seem to take into account your opinion on matters alot more, or who just have a lower energy level or a more calming nature to them....it's usually not to hard to pick a pup or two like this out of a litter....

[Shetlander]

I actually have found it rare to meet a truly "soft" dog...

 

That is a good point. Quinn is prone to sulking but I don't know that being a drama queen makes him soft. I will say that my Shelties were very soft dogs. Not that they couldn't be manipulative at times, but they didn't need much in the way of a correction and even things I thought weren't aversive would sometimes make them deflate or shut down. But Shelties are quite different from Border Collies.

[Maralynn]

I actually have found it rare to meet a truly "soft" dog...

 

Good point. Missy is overall a soft dog. She also trusts me and loves to work. She'll work for others, and can take a fair correction and keep on working. Her drive overrides the softer nature. and I can take her just about anywhere. But she can get overwhelmed easily when she's not working.

[Maralynn]

 

I finally, finally have a bold, gusty dog who has a good strong mind of her own and isn't afraid to tell it like it is. I love my softer dogs, but the bolder dog is beyond amazing. I like both, and I like working with both. Both have unique gifts to bring into the training partnership.

 

I'm really curious as to why you classify Tessa as a bold dog? I thought she had some significant fear/confidence issues?

[Root Beer]

I'm really curious as to why you classify Tessa as a bold dog? I thought she had some significant fear/confidence issues?

 

Because as she is working through the issues, she is becoming quite bold.

 

She still has a ways to go, and things to work through. But once she works through something, she's nothing short of a little spitfire. :lol:

 

For example, when she first came, she was terrified to go through a door ahead of me. I actually had to help her learn (thankfully by having her go with the other dogs) that it was OK to do that. From learning to blend in with them and slip through, she eventually got comfortable with going on her own if I sent her through. Now she is actually at a point where we are starting to work on impulse control at the door because she will barge right through, with great enthusiasm. Now that the fear is completely gone, she is quite spirited about it. And that's just one example.

 

The progress she has made in the short time she has been with us is nothing short of astonishing. And the vast majority of it has happened because I have left her alone and taken things at her pace. I've done some specific work with her, but the biggest confidence boost really is coming from her regular ordinary training, and having a good life in our home. I haven't done nearly the amount of work with her that I've done with Speedy and Dean, as far as confidence building goes, but the pace of her progress has been exponentially faster. She clearly has a very solid temperament and her natural personality is . . . . well, bold. In a very sweet way, but bold all the same. And I absolutely love it!

 

Of course only time will tell, and there is a lot for her to learn yet, but based on what I've seen so far, I am pretty certain that within a couple of years, she will be a normal, confident dog in almost every way. And a bold one!

[juliepoudrier]

These dogs would cower or "turn off""shut down" in the face of a correction or in herding, having any kind of pressure put on them. They had learned to manipulate there owners into getting things "there way or the high way"...as long as things went as they wanted they were fine, as soon as they didn't they were not inclined to "play" anymore and wanted to sulk...

These kinds of dogs are the ones I least like to train on stock. I don't mind a dog who is truly soft and just needs to be shown "the way," but manipulative sulky dogs just drive me crazy. I can make breakthroughs with them, but I think when they go back to their regular, non-working lives, the sulky behavior continues to be reinforced and so each time we work them on stock we have to start anew working through the sulk. I also think this is largely a learned behavior, compared to dogs who are naturally softer or harder natured.

 

J.

[Heather Rae]

How does someone deal with a dog that's being manipulative?

 

This is very interesting, I've never heard of such a thing.

[Root Beer]

How does someone deal with a dog that's being manipulative?

 

That is going to depend a lot on the person and how he or she personally views such a thing. My choice is to make that work in my favor. If the dog is putting forth a lot of effort to try to get something - even if that effort is communicated to me through avoidance behavior - I use that exact same something to reinforce the dog for learning what I want him or her to learn.

 

The more "manipulative" the dog is, the better, in my estimation. That's a dog that displays initiative, creativity, and desire, and I'll find every opportunity possible to incorporate all of that into the dog's training. It can be tough to light a fire (figuratively) under a dog that is too compliant (or soft) at times. The ones who are working hard to try to work the situation in their own favor have tons of self motivation to tap into. It just takes figuring out the best way to do that, which is something that I personally enjoy a great deal.

[Shetlander]

How does someone deal with a dog that's being manipulative?

 

It depends on what the manipulation is. With Quinn's sulks, I don't actually know that he is manipulating. I personally find it amusing. Sometimes I just ignore him and he moves on to something else. Back when we were training in agility and obedience, I would jolly him out of it so we could continue what we were doing. Despite his moments of drama, he really is a happy, enthusiastic boy who would much prefer to have fun rather than mope.

 

If I don't approve of what the dog is trying to achieve or how he's trying to achieve it, I will stop the behavior/do my best to see that the dog doesn't get what he is after. That can be as simple as saying stop, lie down, that'll do, etc.

 

My Sheltie is quite manipulative but she's old and deaf and sweet so mostly I let her do her thing. I am currently having work done around the house and the contractor lets her out at lunch. Though she likes him quite well, she won't come into the house unless he brings a cookie with him. Once in the house she becomes incapable of walking across tarps so he carries her to her room. When I'm home, she walks across tarps with no problem. She leaves non tarp covered floors to walk on tarps in another room. I think she is having a wonderful time with her special friend who fortunately seems to find her quirks funny.

[juliepoudrier]

How does someone deal with a dog that's being manipulative?

 

This is very interesting, I've never heard of such a thing.

In a stock working situation, if the dog takes off in a sulk because it's being stopped from doing what it wants to do rather than what it should do (for example it keeps slicing in and trying to bite and then quits when corrected for that instead of just taking the correction for what it is--information that I don't like what it's doing and it should try something else--on stock), I will actually put *more* pressure on the dog for quitting and running off in a sulk so that the dog realizes that the sulk isn't gaining it anything. Unlike Kristine, I don't find the sulky dog as one that presents opportunities to build on, but then again we are training for completely different outcomes.

 

Conversely, many soft dogs, those others would find difficult to light a fire under, are keen enough to work (assuming they are well-bred for work so the fire is pre-lit), so training is just a matter of adjusting the information provided so as not to overwhelm the dog's more sensitive nature. In such a case, the dog's desire to work stock can work in the trainer's favor because (as someone else mentioned earlier) many a soft dog will opt to work in spite of feeling a bit overwhelmed by a correction--in direct contrast to the sulky dog who quits when it isn't allowed to do things its way. Again, different training goals make one see different types of dogs as either pleasant challenges or royal PIAs.

 

J.

[Maralynn]

That is going to depend a lot on the person and how he or she personally views such a thing. My choice is to make that work in my favor. If the dog is putting forth a lot of effort to try to get something - even if that effort is communicated to me through avoidance behavior - I use that exact same something to reinforce the dog for learning what I want him or her to learn.

 

The more "manipulative" the dog is, the better, in my estimation. That's a dog that displays initiative, creativity, and desire, and I'll find every opportunity possible to incorporate all of that into the dog's training. It can be tough to light a fire (figuratively) under a dog that is too compliant (or soft) at times. The ones who are working hard to try to work the situation in their own favor have tons of self motivation to tap into. It just takes figuring out the best way to do that, which is something that I personally enjoy a great deal.

 

IMO, there is a difference between drive and sulkiness. Drive being the desire to get something. Sulkiness being a dog that just wants to do it's own thing on it's own terms. While it may be a training challenge, it's usually a working nightmare. A sulky stock dog is not really a useful dog. A sulky SAR dog isn't one you can count on either. And sulkiness is kind of the antithesis for a Border Collie - a dog that has been bred for a high desire to work with a person.

[Root Beer]

IMO, there is a difference between drive and sulkiness. Drive being the desire to get something. Sulkiness being a dog that just wants to do it's own thing on it's own terms.

 

A desire to do his or her own thing on his or her own terms is a drive for a dog who is set on it. It might not be what most people think of as "drive" in the most obvious sense, but if it is something that the dog wants, it is a drive. I'm not going to speak in terms of SAR or stockwork, since those are not disciplines in which I am involved, but in sports, even a strong desire in a dog to do his or her "own thing" can be used to motivate the dog to do what the handler would like the dog to do, and even build the basic desire to work with the person. It's pretty amazing to see it happen.

 

And sulkiness is kind of the antithesis for a Border Collie - a dog that has been bred for a high desire to work with a person.

 

Regardless, due to many different circumstances, backgrounds, and temperaments, there are Border Collies who display avoidance behaviors, for many reasons. The handler really does have a choice in how he or she regards the tendency in the individual dog. I've found that for myself, accepting that as part of the package and using it to help the dog actually move past the tendency is often a win-win. I get what I want (focus, desire to work with me, confidence, etc.) and the dog gets what he or she is naturally highly inclined to go after (opportunities to do things on his or her own terms, etc.)

 

Maybe being a person who has a strong desire to do my own thing on my own terms, I can relate to it and actually respect it in a dog. I don't have any desire to try to change that aspect of the dog's "personality". But I'm definitely going to use it to my advantage as a trainer.

[Heather Rae]

[...]but in sports, even a strong desire in a dog to do his or her "own thing" can be used to motivate the dog to do what the handler would like the dog to do, and even build the basic desire to work with the person. It's pretty amazing to see it happen.

 

 

So is there any way I could tempt you into sharing an example of sulkiness and how you used it to be motivating? Training is something of great fascination to me and if I can learn anything, I want to.

[Maralynn]

A desire to do his or her own thing on his or her own terms is a drive for a dog who is set on it. It might not be what most people think of as "drive" in the most obvious sense, but if it is something that the dog wants, it is a drive. I'm not going to speak in terms of SAR or stockwork, since those are not disciplines in which I am involved, but in sports, even a strong desire in a dog to do his or her "own thing" can be used to motivate the dog to do what the handler would like the dog to do, and even build the basic desire to work with the person. It's pretty amazing to see it happen.

 

 

 

Regardless, due to many different circumstances, backgrounds, and temperaments, there are Border Collies who display avoidance behaviors, for many reasons. The handler really does have a choice in how he or she regards the tendency in the individual dog. I've found that for myself, accepting that as part of the package and using it to help the dog actually move past the tendency is often a win-win. I get what I want (focus, desire to work with me, confidence, etc.) and the dog gets what he or she is naturally highly inclined to go after (opportunities to do things on his or her own terms, etc.)

 

I think this method is dependent on a few things. For instance Kipp was highly motivated to chase and nip cats. That was his "own thing" to do. There is no way one can use that as a reward. So I made it unrewarding and gave him another way to satisfy his drive. And now he'll choose to play frisbee over chasing cats.

 

I guess I just like to figure out how to make what I want highly rewarding to the dog. And shape the dogs behavior that way. It's pretty straight forward to build drive for something.

 

Maybe being a person who has a strong desire to do my own thing on my own terms, I can relate to it and actually respect it in a dog. I don't have any desire to try to change that aspect of the dog's "personality". But I'm definitely going to use it to my advantage as a trainer.

 

Then why did you choose Border Collies over a more independent breed?

 

I think comparing humans to dogs in this manner is like comparing apples to oranges. You are projecting your emotions on the matter to dogs. Dogs are pack animals, they generally want a good leader and clear direction. Now I'm not going to take a dog and stick him in a job where he is unhappy, or it's just a bad fit, but I will work on shaping their desire to work with my own if possible. It's not hard to build a dogs desire for something in a rewarding manner.

[Root Beer]

So is there any way I could tempt you into sharing an example of sulkiness and how you used it to be motivating? Training is something of great fascination to me and if I can learn anything, I want to.

 

Sure. My mutt, Maddie, has been big on doing her "own thing". If she doesn't want to do something, she rolls on her side and plants herself on the ground. Although I don't regard it in these terms, this would be something that some would consider "sulky" since she is very clear in communicating "I don't want to" with this gesture. And there really was no snapping her out of it.

 

One of her "own things" that she was very driven to do was sniffing on the outdoor Agility courses. Inside she was more or less focused, but outside, her nose was planted on the ground. If I tried to get her to run instead of sniff, onto her side she would go. So, it was a constant struggle to get her to do much of anything, much less run a course.

 

I taught her a game from the Control Unleashed program called "Give Me a Break" where permission to do what she wanted (sniff, lay on the ground and roll on her side, etc.), was put on cue. Then I used those things as a reward for her for focusing on the outdoor course and running with me, even just a tiny bit at first. Before long, I couldn't get her to sniff on course for love or money. She was no longer interested in rolling onto her side. I soon had a dog who was focused on me, wagging her tail, and eager to run.

 

She still enjoys sniffing and doing "her thing". When we are outside for class or a trial, I make sure that she gets ample time outside the ring before I ask her to focus or run to sniff and do "her thing". It has become a give and take, and it works out well.

 

That's a sport related example. I actually use this concept a lot more in everyday pet-type situations. I don't really run into "sulkiness" among my dogs, but there are things that each of them can be strong-willed and particular about. And I run into avoidance behavior. They don't always want to do everything I want them to all the time. This approach tends to work very well to help turn avoidance behavior around to interest and a desire to take part in whatever we are doing.