Bullet87 Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 The stupidity of people baffles me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 Oh dear, I don't know why I ever even bother watching such videos. Sheep as dog toys. Oh, yeah, and let's blame the "pissy" sheep for not wanting to be harrassed by the terrier. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet87 Posted February 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTryp5xLDOg&feature=related And the stupidity just keeps coming. Oi! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 Who is the trainer in the first video? (PM is okay...) I love the way the ewe gets smacked in the head at 2:00 for putting its head down at a dog that has no business being in there in the first place. Here's another fabulous Boston "herding" ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC17Pa0JQqE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 You know, I think I'm starting to understand the bias, here, against use of the word "herding." If this is "herding," it certainly has nothing to do with "shepherding," the eons-old practice of diligently and thoughtfully caring for the livestock that sustained human livelihoods. ~ Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 Herding, schmerding. Where I come from they shoot dogs for worrying livestock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 Here's one for you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9gODTCh_6s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 Hmmm...wonder if the dog above actually got his HIC? At least no sheep were harrassed in that video. But not sure how they would evaluate herding instinct. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 I could not bring myself to watch more than a tiny fraction of the initial videos - they were simply cases of using sheep as dog toys, proving nothing, and satisfying someone's ego in a way that I can't comprehend. As for the last video, what does six minutes of walking a dog on leash around the inside perimeter of a pen while sheep are present prove? The really sad thing is that these people probably actually feel their dogs are "doing herding" and showing "herding instinct and ability". And that someone is likely making money off allowing and encouraging them to do so. As someone once said to me, "What right do you (meaning me) have to say they shouldn't have fun with their dog?" Ask the sheep if it's their idea of a good time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 On the last video: So if the title of the vid. didn't say Jeager's HIC I would think it was a test to see if she had control of her dog? Like proving it was safe around livestock or people or something....WTF???? I kept waiting to see if she ever let it do anything. I almost watched the whole thing, it was like watching mud dry...had to walk away. Is that a Pittie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 Fun? You mean like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KygUv3VmkCI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 Karen, yes, that was a Pittie. Or I like the really cutesy name for them ... Pibble. Awwww... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItsADogsLyfe Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 I hate seeing sheep harrassment. I never understood why someone with a non herding breed would want to put their dog on sheep. I mean if you want to learn to work sheep with a dog, why not at least get a dog that is supposed to be a sheepdog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 Fun? You mean like this? One of the requirements is showing "sustained interest". I guess this dog qualifies, right? The only thing worse is that one or more of the people involved is chuckling with (I'm assuming) pleasure at seeing the dog demonstrate such interest and enthusiasm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 I made a comment on a videos on YouTube, stating my opinion that it was nothing more than harassment (it was a video of a "Queensland Blue Heeler" supposedly herding sheep, but primarily running and chasing, under a "trainer's" guidance at some place in Long Beach, CA). No wonder the person screens comments, so nothing but one positive comment shows up. This is the very intelligent reply that I received from samh09, on "Cookie Herding Sheep in Long Beach CA" - You ma'am or sir, You are an idiot, not a complete one, but almost. You know nothing about what's going on here. I do not care if you have a farm and herd live stock. This is about draining your dogs energy, giving them exercise. meeting the needs of your dog so they can live a happy and fulfilled life. It helps to curve bad behavior problems. By the way, you suck at herding sheep. So why don't you just SHUT UP!!!!" I guess farming livestock (versus having them solely for dog equipment/toys/entertainment/exercise/fulfillment) and using dogs to help manage stock in a reduced-stress fashion leads one to be ignorant. And it's obviously much less significant than keeping/using stock so your dog can lead "a happy and fulfilled life" and the rest of the drivel spouted here. And, I suppose there is a very valid basis for knowing that I "suck at herding sheep". Must be all those videos I have out on YouTube of myself and my dogs chasing sheep around. Obviously, the comment in the title, "And they say sheep are stupid", is very relevent here. Why do I let myself get sucked into wasting even small amounts of time and thought on junk like this? I'd best take my idiot self back to working on the farm bookkeeping... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthfieldNick Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 ... I "suck at herding sheep"... My first thought was, "Well, yeah I suck at herding sheep... why do you think I have the dogs?!" LOL! The dogs (at least the properly trained, stockdogs) really do a much better job moving sheep than I do on my own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 I think there are two things that drive this human behavior (putting dogs--even clearly unsuitable ones--on stock). The first is summed up very nicely by Sue: And that someone is likely making money off allowing and encouraging them to do so. Yep, there's money to be had in letting folks come out and let their dogs harrass the crap out of your livestock. The livestock are simply objects that allow you to make money encouraging people to do something they shouldn't even consider doing in the first place. MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. The second is the mindset so clearly described by the person who responded to Sue's post on his/her YouTube video (and of course this complements the first reason, since such people wouldn't be able to let their dogs harrass livestock for fun if there weren't others who encouraged it because they see MONEY in it): This is about draining your dogs energy, giving them exercise. meeting the needs of your dog so they can live a happy and fulfilled life. And there you have it. It all comes down to MONEY. Someone's making it hand over fist by letting people "work" (very loosely defined) their livestock. What really saddens me is that so many people are up in arms--and rightfully so--over activities like baiting, dog and cock fighting, etc., and yet somehow it's acceptable to *routinely* stress out (or worse) stock. I used the word routinely, because we all know there is a certain amount of stress livestock undergo during the training of a stock dog, but if the end result is a useful stockdog that can help around the farm and can manage stock with *minimum* stress, then it's a fair sacrifice/trade-off. But it's not a fair sacrifice to subject animals to that continuously because of human greed, human ego, or because the dog needs to have "fun." J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 This reminds me of a conversion I had with a couple that had a Border Collie. The dog was an AKC-bred dog, interested in stock, but without any real talent. They used to take him to an AKC trainer (his breeder, perhaps?) where they would leave him for some training. They decided to not do that any more because he was being disciplined harshly. Mind you, the trainer (who was making money off training him) was not discouraging the owners from bringing him for training in any way, but was endeavoring to train the dog with strong physical correction (i.e., striking and hitting). They did not like this approach and so were looking for another trainer. I asked what their plans were for the dog and his future, for instance, did they have stock or were they planning on learning to work the dog themselves or trialing. They said, neither, but that the dog was "bred for this" and it was fulfilling and enjoyable for him, and that his life would be lacking something if he did not get training. So they wanted to take him out every week or a few times a month to "satisfy his need". Obviously, this is a prevalent idea in some circles, and I am sure it is more than encouraged by those who make an income or living off perpetuating this idea, no matter how ill-suited the particular animal might even be for stockwork. As Julie pointed out, it is sad that the sheep (or other stock) pay the price for someone's dog being able to "do what he was bred to do" and "work off energy", or for an onwer to "solve behavioral problems" or give him "a fulfilling life". Geesh, people, these are dogs! Most of them weren't "bred for this" for generations if ever at all; there are more constructive and humane ways to exercise a dog; there are many suitable ways to deal with behavioral issues; and a dog does not need livestock to have a "satisfying and fulfilling" life. At best, these dogs being discussed are living out predatory instincts common to all dogs, and their owners are deluding themselves into thinking they are "herding", while the so-called instructors are laughing all the way to the bank. And I am not being critical of people with suitable dogs who are enjoying learning with and bonding with their dogs during worthwhile training, even if it is limited, as long as the welfare of the livestock is top priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katariina Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 Well, maybe the motivation is money, but I'd say most of these people, who let dogs harrass("work") the livestock, are totally "clueless", how it should be done. They probably don't know any better and if you try to point it out(chew them out), they get offended big time...that's just the human nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 Well, yes, "cluelessness" is a prerequisite, for the "student" at least. Absolutely. Some of the so-called instructors are also clueless but I think some are just inconsiderate of the livestock involved. For some people, an animal is just a tool or a means to an end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concrete Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 It helps to curve bad behavior problems One thing you never want in a dog is straight bad behavior. You should always try to curve bad behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted March 1, 2011 Report Share Posted March 1, 2011 Well, maybe the motivation is money, but I'd say most of these people, who let dogs harrass("work") the livestock, are totally "clueless", how it should be done. They probably don't know any better and if you try to point it out(chew them out), they get offended big time...that's just the human nature. I was just having a conversation about this topic with a friend. She had brought me a copy of an article that was in the Wall Street Journal (I confess to not reading yet) and she thought it was cute that people could rent the sheep for the dogs. I explained that this could be a problem like videos above and once I explained what was going on, the animal welfare aspect made sense, she had just not thought about it, This is a lady who was a development director for a shelter, has owned horses, a couple of pet sheep, chickens and all sorts of other critters, and on reading the article it had not registered that it could be problem for the sheep. So yes ignorance. The other part of the videos that really shows ignorance is that you can hear the dogs owners laughing and cheering on their dogs. I would imagine most of these people car about animals and if they gave a little thought to the sheep would not think what was happening fun. PS what was going on in the HIC video I speeded through but it looked like a dog who was being made to heel around a ring with distraction any dog with prey drive would want to go "play" with those sheep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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