HollieDaze Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 I'm not sure what to make of Hollie's reactions to other dogs. This is long, as I want to give a glimpse of several encounters. The first time we visited my sister's house she played with their 3 yr old American Eskimo beautifully. Just a couple weeks later, my sister brought her dog (the aforementioned Eskie) along for an event at my home. Hollie was obnoxious as a hostess! She barked non-stop--not in a threatening or threatened way, but being very demanding and very loud, and very, very constant. Hollie wanted to play--she brought the Eskie toys and dropped them at her feet, she did play bows, and that "chase me" bounding backward--barking, barking, barking the entire time. The Eskie wasn't interested. Although they'd played great at my sister's place (on the Eskie's turf) for some reason the Eskie just wanted to wander around getting pettings from humans, and didn't want any part of doggie play. Hollie wouldn't take the hint, yapping play invitations incessently. At points in the party I removed Hollie from the situation (in part so that the people could rest their ears). At other junctures I put Hollie on leash, which seemed to settle her considerably as well. We've had Hollie two months, and she barked 10x as much in the few hours the Eskie ignored her than she's barked total in her whole time with us. She doesn't bark often, and when she does it is usually a single, purposeful bark--nothing like the yapping she did at the Eskie. Was her behavior with the Eskie what I've heard of as "reactive"? Was it the BC obsessiveness? Was it just clueless puppyness? In other dog situations she's a hard for me to peg as well. At the vet a week ago she greeted a couple other dogs with what seemed very normal (quiet) friendly curiosity. (She was on leash.) She joins us (on leash until her extended down-stay is reliable) for my children's piano lessons. The piano teacher has a little fluffy, white terrier mix and Hollie gives him an occasional play bow and a single bark-invite, but when he ignores her (he always ignores her), she takes the hint. He'll even try to tantalize her sitting just out of her leash range, but she'll just lie down and take it in stride. She's been to the off-leash dog park twice. The first time she hid under a picnic table and snapped and barked (defensive bark) at any dog that came close. (I stayed nearby, supervising, being there for her, etc...) The second time was much better--she did the "under the picnic table" thing about half the time, but she'd take breaks from being the snappy picnic table defender to run and romp, not exactly playing "with" the other dogs, but running alongside them. She'd express an interest in them, but the moment they returned the interest she'd turn shrewish. The second time was many times better than the first, and I was impressed with the other dogs at the park. I'd heard dog-park horror stories, but all the other dogs were very well mannered--I had the "problem child". The other people and dogs were very understanding because she's still obviously a puppy, but I feel the window will close and I should try to get her off-leash dog-to-dog manners more reliable before she's full grown. Any thoughts, on diagnosing what's going on and helping her be at ease with other dogs-- neither demanding attention or snapping when she gets attention? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 It's hard to tell with explanations over the internet, but I will explain what it sounds like to me. First situation with the Eskie at your house and the bark-bark-barking sounds like she was frustrated and over stimulated. She has previous experience playing with this dog, so it sounds like she was getting quite frustrated that the other dog did not want to play with her this time. Getting bossy and over stimulating herself. A time out is definitely appropriate here, IMO. My male dog (Riley) is a rough and tumble player and I have to make sure I match him up with other dogs properly because he can be quite overbearing and intimidating to dogs who don't play the same as he does. He can also get quite bossy with gentler dogs and he becomes over stimulated (he does it to him self) while trying to get the dog to play with him. He gets removed from the situation when he becomes like this. I usually keep it in check because very early into our relationship, I realized that his pupils got so big that you could no longer see the colour of his eyes when he was over stimulated. His eyes are a light brown, so it's pretty easy to tell, but it's weird because he's the only dog I've ever noticed this in, could just be him. His bark also changes, it becomes more high-pitched. So, I don't really think your dog is being reactive, she's being bossy and getting frustrated. At the vet and piano lessons, she sounds like she's behaving appropriately. At the dog park however, it sounds like she was a bit 'over her head' so to speak. My guess is that she felt so overwhelmed that she didn't know what else to do. Completely acceptable to me, but if you plan on taking her to these places, I would work on socializing her to them in a positive manner. I know that dogs tend to swarm new dogs at dog parks and I bet she was just a little unsure of all this. I think the best way to go about socializing a dog to rooms full of dogs is through puppy classes or puppy playtimes. I know this isn't available everywhere, but if you can find a good positive training facility that offers puppy classes, she will learn to play appropriately with other dogs her own age and size, it will also give her more confidence in large groups of dogs and should help to decrease her anxiety at the off leash park. I would also get familiar with canine communication and body language so that you can really understand what is going on between two dogs. Sometimes when Riley is matched up with the right play partner, they look like they are going to eat each other, except the fact that their bodies remain loose and fluid and they make hardly any noise. Turid Rugaas has lots of great information on body language and calming signals if you can find one of her books, that would help you greatly. Dogstar Daily also has lots of resources and videos about proper play etiquette and tons of other things if you're interested. You can probably find info on body language there as well. http://www.dogstardaily.com/videos/appropriate-play-between-two-dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninso Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 ^^ What she said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollieDaze Posted February 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Thanks for taking the time to give me detailed analysis on each situation. That helps me sort through things, and each of your explanations make total sense and seem to "fit" for Hollie's personality. I'm not sure how important training her FOR the dog park is or whether we'll continue to go. For us, the dog park is more of a means to an end on exposure and training, to help her in this window of socialization and better "bomb proof" her for whatever she/we may encounter throughout her time with us. I think it more likely she'll just join us at "regular" parks that we all go to as a family. For daily romps our large lot here at home affords space for fetch and frizbee, and we enjoy walks. Mostly I just wanted her to have some off-leash encounters to give her a background for handling future encounters of the canine kind to help her be comfortable with a variety of situations, to whatever extent she's intended to be. The puppy classes in our area have not impressed me--to the point that I think she'd be better off "homeschooled" with a non-expert trainer (me) who's learning along with her than in them. Very good suggestion on my getting acquainted with canine body language and communication. I recognize this isn't an area in which I"m intuitive. (And for some reason my previous (nonBC) dogs seemed to not need me to be as much as Hollie does--not a complaint--I'm game for the challenge, and I think this is part of the package and "intelligent spark" that drew me to her breeds.) I'll be studying those Dogstar Daily resources. Especially since I'm opting to go sans trainer, I know that the responsibility for learning this mine. Thank you so much for the link. I think it may prove to fill in one "missing link" for me as I work alongside Hollie. My weekend homework will be on Dogstar Daily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninso Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Mostly I just wanted her to have some off-leash encounters to give her a background for handling future encounters of the canine kind to help her be comfortable with a variety of situations. This is a great goal, but a dog park is a hugely overwhelming situation for a very young puppy. Most of all she needs to be socialized with friendly dogs and at the dog park, you never know what you're going to get. I would instead try to find friends with dogs that she can meet, until she is a little older and more confident. Then try the dog park again. I agree--I would stay away from the puppy classes you describe! But if you can find one that uses positive training methods they can be a good resource. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Well, if the puppy classes in your area sound like garbage, then they likely are. You're right, doing it your self is probably better and safer. Tania mentioned friends with dogs... which is an excellent idea. Other dog friendly dogs of various sizes and ages will likely help her out with her confidence and socialization. This way it's on your terms and you can even control how many dogs at a time etc. Maybe you can find a dog walking group or a club on the web for your community. I know Calgary has a ton of them. Some for small dogs, some for large dogs, some for every dog. That *could* be a better alternative to off-leash parks and puppy classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollieDaze Posted February 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 That makes sense, Tania. Sounds like I was pushing her into too much too soon with the dog park situation. These replies have helped me see the separate situations and her reactions more clearly, and the tools to better understand canine communication will be a huge help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollieDaze Posted February 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 I'll check for other walking groups or options around here, DaisyDuke. I"ve not heard of any, but it's possible we have them. If not, the friends with dogs is a good idea. (Didn't mean to ignore your reply, but it popped up while I was posting, I think..) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejano Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 Thanks for taking the time to give me detailed analysis on each situation. That helps me sort through things, and each of your explanations make total sense and seem to "fit" for Hollie's personality. I'm not sure how important training her FOR the dog park is or whether we'll continue to go. For us, the dog park is more of a means to an end on exposure and training, to help her in this window of socialization and better "bomb proof" her for whatever she/we may encounter throughout her time with us. I think it more likely she'll just join us at "regular" parks that we all go to as a family. For daily romps our large lot here at home affords space for fetch and frizbee, and we enjoy walks. Mostly I just wanted her to have some off-leash encounters to give her a background for handling future encounters of the canine kind to help her be comfortable with a variety of situations, to whatever extent she's intended to be. The puppy classes in our area have not impressed me--to the point that I think she'd be better off "homeschooled" with a non-expert trainer (me) who's learning along with her than in them. Very good suggestion on my getting acquainted with canine body language and communication. I recognize this isn't an area in which I"m intuitive. (And for some reason my previous (nonBC) dogs seemed to not need me to be as much as Hollie does--not a complaint--I'm game for the challenge, and I think this is part of the package and "intelligent spark" that drew me to her breeds.) I'll be studying those Dogstar Daily resources. Especially since I'm opting to go sans trainer, I know that the responsibility for learning this mine. Thank you so much for the link. I think it may prove to fill in one "missing link" for me as I work alongside Hollie. My weekend homework will be on Dogstar Daily. Our Brodie is uncomfortable around strange dogs (attacked may be too strong a word as there was no bloodshed, but he did suffer physical mauling from a very fresh Aussie in an obedience class) so we've established a comfort zone, use targeting and play with Border Collie relatives, introducing new ones one at a time so that he has a chance to get used to them. We were advised to give him plenty of room in a neutral area (i.e. don't invite the dog to "his" house and don't bring him to the other dog's house for the first meetings. Avoid opportunities to stare down or squabble over resources, people or toys. My goal for him is to be comfortable at stockdog trials, should we happen to make it that far in our training. You might want to keep looking for a more congenial dog club - I also found a Karen Pryor training academy that I wish I had known about when we were working on obedience as the attitude is 100% turn around from the AKC boot camp I went through with Robin and Brodie. For Brodie, who is a soft dog, positive reinforcement training is perfect, so we work on that on our own and if we weren't spending all of our money setting up for our own sheep and lessons for the dogs, I'd be back up there in a second with him. He was also much happier when we started him on sheep - as if some part of his brain finally has an outlet for this instinct so he could relax. I can see the tension building in him again over the winter so we're both eager to get out and get going again. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 Much excellent advice here IMHO - although I am not an expert dog trainer. I encourage you to continue to socialize Hollie with other dogs and in other environments in appropriate situations as it will pay off throughout her life. I have a friend with a Welshie who never socialized him because he was such a 'good' puppy at home. Even though she intellectually knew a puppy had to be socialized, she didn't realize HOW important it was. As a result, she now has an ex-agility dog who can not be trusted around other dogs. He is fear-aggressive with other dogs if loose, and she can no longer run him in agility contests since he totally shuts down (out of fear of his surroundings and other dogs) and barely trots around the course (if he isn't otherwise distracted). She recently attended a motivation workshop with this dog, and he was so fearful that he just stood and shook instead of playing with her - despite all the positive motivation tricks that were tried. Once he is on his home turf, he is a happy, friendly dog and loves human visitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
border_collie_crazy Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 ok I will comment on the picnic table thing because I have been through the same thing, and I made the big mistake of thinking "oh its her safe place, I will let her come out in her own time" that was the biggest mistake I ever made, because now she believes its her safe zone....AKA "I can be as obnoxious as I want to other dogs as long as I can get under here ASAP" I am now having a very difficult time trying to reverse that behevaiour, she is no longer allowed under anything around other dogs, ever, period. out in the open she is totally fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollieDaze Posted February 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Great suggestions. We'll absolutely continue to socialize, even though I'm thinking I might pull back on the dog park for present. Good to know my dog isn't the only who staked out the picnic table and that I shouldn't let her just continue to consider that her area to defend as she chooses. She's still going lots of places with us with several close encounters of the canine kind and seems to be doing well. I guess maybe the dog park is just too many for her right at the moment and I need to acclimate her a little more before throwing her in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 I'd get her general confidence around new dogs and new situations up a bit more before bringing her back to the off leash park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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