Freeman 101 Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 I am not saying that they are/arent fat, but I will say that conf grooming does tend to make most dogs look pudgy if they are med to long haired dogs. Take the OES for example. shave em down and they are the same size of your average hound dog. They will be "back" brushed n clipped to create that "fat/fluffy" look. Grooming aside: their legs look much heavier built than your average border collie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 Grooming aside: their legs look much heavier built than your average border collie. A lot of that could just be how the hair lays or how they are groom. Wet their legs down and use a slicker to brush it up, add some moose and chalk, and see how your dogs legs look. use the slicker to brush up the legs for a period of time and the hair will start to do it by it self. also the feathering is scissor to look natural but it can add body to the legs when done right. And you don't need to like it or do it yourself. But a picture can be very misleading about structure and substance. a good groomer and photographer can hide any "faults". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 Cressa said "...a good groomer and photographer can hide any faults." .. Which is exactly why the entire game of conformation showing (that's not a sport) is pointless. Mousse and chalk are pretty useless on sheep. That's put up or shut up time which is why many show breeders come up with a myriad of excuses why their dogs have never worked stock, but will sit there and claim all day that they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 chalk on sheep YUCK! Bet that would gum up with the lanolin in the wool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 Cressa said "...a good groomer and photographer can hide any faults." .. Which is exactly why the entire game of conformation showing (that's not a sport) is pointless. Mousse and chalk are pretty useless on sheep. That's put up or shut up time which is why many show breeders come up with a myriad of excuses why their dogs have never worked stock, but will sit there and claim all day that they can. ...and look "beautiful" doing it! Not. It never ceases to amaze me when people equate "beauty" with show ring standards when beauty is what beauty does. The homeliest dog is beautiful when the work is beautiful and when he/she is loved and appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 pretty is as pretty does. Robin i see u arent going to join in the convo, prob bcause we know that show ''borders'' (pardon my french) are in no way shape or form even slightly comparable or even in the same breed catagory as the working collie. And in my estimation are and always will be....a breed apart. Just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrygirl2010 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 A lot of that could just be how the hair lays or how they are groom. Wet their legs down and use a slicker to brush it up, add some moose and chalk, and see how your dogs legs look. use the slicker to brush up the legs for a period of time and the hair will start to do it by it self. also the feathering is scissor to look natural but it can add body to the legs when done right. And you don't need to like it or do it yourself. But a picture can be very misleading about structure and substance. a good groomer and photographer can hide any "faults". This is exactly what they do. It makes their legs look like they have a lot more bone--especially if you use the chalk. Personally, I think the chalk looks like too much. I have 3 show BCs and I can see where you are all coming from. I have been seeing so many BCs that are being bred with way too much coat and bone, and their heads are too "boxy". It distresses me how much people are breeding for what is "in" so that they can win in the ring. I personally like how my dogs look, but I will say they are not the best on sheep. My boy is way too zealous and just chases. When I see a working BC doing what it was bred to do, it takes my breath away. It's just amazing. I do wonder, however, how a show-bred BC would do on sheep if it started herding as a puppy, and was trained correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 I do wonder, however, how a show-bred BC would do on sheep if it started herding as a puppy, and was trained correctly. A good start and proper training will bring out and channel what a dog has inside - but if the dog doesn't have it to begin with, it will never be able to do the work. If you don't breed for the work, the likelihood that a particular dog will have what it takes is extremely low. The characteristics needed for useful stockwork are multiple and complex and, while it may be easy to find non-working-bred dogs that possess one or some of those characteristics, to find one that has enough of the package to be really useful is rare. You can't "train it into them" you can only train to "bring it out of them". If it's not in there, it's not in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItsADogsLyfe Posted July 26, 2011 Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 My young dog, Crue, now 2 yrs, wasn't started till he was over 1 yr old. I was only able to work him about 3 times. Then for the past year he hasn't seen sheep. I recently got sheep and he was better the first time I worked him a couple weeks ago than he was 1 year ago after not seeing sheep all that time. He is very well bred (working). Here is a picture of my Meg, her Grand dam was a NZ/Aust line dog. Here she is completely shaved down she does look leggier with no hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeninlb Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 I wonder how I can get my pup, with his spotted coat, to look like the dogs in the video? All fluffy and purdy like? Without mud, burs, or just plain being stinky after a long day outside? LMAO! What a joke! I'd gladly take my scruffy pup with dirt and mud all over him any day! http://video.westminsterkennelclub.org/breed_judging/herding/2011_2/border-collie/v1292926 Might be fun to go sit in the audience next year and chuck tennis balls into the ring, don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barefoot Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 Their eyes. Their facial expression. The word that comes to my mind is "vacuous." ~ Gloria It's the Golden Retriever look; the black and white version. PS-That thumbnail must be a pup off Scrimgeour's Zac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 I do wonder, however, how a show-bred BC would do on sheep if it started herding as a puppy, and was trained correctly. Since this thread was bumped up again, I'll respond to this. I had Kipp on sheep over the weekend. He is 6.5 y/o and has been on sheep a dozen or so times in his life and not at all for the past 10 months. He was quite tight in at first, but all business. By the end of the session was giving the sheep space, keeping the sheep to the handler and coming to a stop on balance. A good handler brings out the best in the dog, but a well bred dog gives the handler the needed pieces to work with. The show bred dogs have signifficant peices of the puzzle missing from the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderlineCrazy(: Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 What, you don't think this would win Best in Show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 It's the Golden Retriever look; the black and white version. PS-That thumbnail must be a pup off Scrimgeour's Zac. LOL, that explains it! Actually, Erin Swanson's Cooper is not Scrimgeour bred. I forget what his breeding is, but he's not related to Zac. Has that look though, doesn't he? ~ Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barefoot Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Actually, Erin Swanson's Cooper is not Scrimgeour bred. I forget what his breeding is, but he's not related to Zac. Has that look though, doesn't he? ~ Gloria Wow, he sure does look like Zac; posture, markings, style, expression. I would have bet on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Some of the posts are really naive. Really, many of your wonderful working sheepdogs would look like first class foo-foos given have a chance. All some of them need is a good shampooing and a brushing. I'm not talking about doing groomer magic with twenty conditioners and tweaking and what-have-you. I am talking about a wash, a good brush, 30 min training in standing for show, and they're ready to go. But you love to indulge in these show-dog bashings, so have fun, but next time you look at your sheepdog - remember, there might be a foo-foo there. :lol: :lol: :lol: Maja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 And many of our wonderful working sheepdogs don't even have enough coat to be floofed (Ranger notwithstanding)! J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 And many of our wonderful working sheepdogs don't even have enough coat to be floofed (Ranger notwithstanding)! Ranger - I wonder why he came to your mind right away :lol: . But of course you're right, if a dog is a good shedder then summer is a show disater, but that means that in the winter it's a whole 'nuther thing . Daisy - my BMD - just throws off her entire coat in March, but by October it is fabulous again, the envy of many show champions! But "alas!" she guards her sheep instead of chasing medals and cups. Maja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 I actually meant my smooth-coated dogs. Do you ever see a smooth coat in Poland? Would it be possible for such a dog to get the needed approval for breeding? At the trial last weekend, my co-worker kept having to work her rough-coated dog over to remove burrs, beggar lice, stick tights, etc., from him, while my smooth coated dog didn't pick up any of that mess. It's one reason I love my smooth coats. After the weekend, guess which dog I had to take a brush/scissors to in order to remove noxious plants.... You'll note that the puppy is smooth too, lol! (We all have our prejudices!) J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Hair or no hair, I'm afraid nothing would change my little coyote from this: to the other... And thank doG for that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barefoot Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Some of the posts are really naive. Really, many of your wonderful working sheepdogs would look like first class foo-foos given have a chance. All some of them need is a good shampooing and a brushing. I'm not talking about doing groomer magic with twenty conditioners and tweaking and what-have-you. I am talking about a wash, a good brush, 30 min training in standing for show, and they're ready to go. But you love to indulge in these show-dog bashings, so have fun, but next time you look at your sheepdog - remember, there might be a foo-foo there. :lol: :lol: :lol: Maja Of course on many of them you would have to do the brushing after you remove the glue that was used to properly tip the ears down. Otherwise you might lose points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noodles Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 They look like black and white rough collies. This video saddens me. They look nothing like any border collie I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelleybean Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Looks can be decieving. I really don't understand the need to put down someone else's dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Looks can be decieving. I really don't understand the need to put down someone else's dog. I don't think it's putting down anybody's dog per se, but rather the "philosophy of dogs" that usually accompanies the show-dog set. And though it may be equally pointless to put that down, it is disturbing to watch for some of us, because we know what it leads to, ultimately, for the dogs in question. The little show bitch I put side by side with my dog in an earlier post is probably very sweet, and may well be a lovely dog to be around. But it is as likely that she wouldn't know one end of a sheep, cow or duck from the other, and that her descendants will even less so. So though she may be a lovely dog, if she wins shows - or possibly even if she doesn't - she will be bred, possibly to her sire or other near relation, and she will be another conduit for taking the breed away from the working Border Collie, and toward the nightmare that is the pedigreed show-dog's destiny. You are right. Looks can be deceiving. But it is what she looks like, and very little else, that makes her valuable to the people that breed dogs that way and present them that way. And that is a poor way to evaluate a dog, and a dreadful way to evaluate a Border Collie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_Tigger Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 I can't imagine putting one of those puffballs in a pasture full of grass and mud to work sheep. Seems like that coat would just cause more trouble than it's worth. Heck, I wouldn't want to deal with it in my house either for that matter. When I first got my collie, somebody asked me if I was sure thats what it was because his nose/face was longer and he wasn't all fluffy. Even when he grows up, he won't have near that amount of coat, despite being rough coated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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