rufftie Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 there's been a lot of talk on the boards lately about non-herding breeds and akc bred bcs harrassing livestock in an effort to gain herding titles or bragging rights. well it got me thinking and i'm having, shall we say, a crisis in faith. my dog and i take herding lessons, attend seminars and have started trialing in "fun" trials. we are hobby herders. we do not have and probably never will have sheep. i am wondering if we should continue. she is a rescue and spayed so i don't know here lineage and have obviously no intention of breeding. we both enjoy the challenges of working stock and learning to work as a team. i'm very proud of how far my dog has come. BUT she and i will never be open material. if we work really hard, spend a lot of time and money, we may make it into pro-novice. are we just out there harrassing stock for our selfish pleasure? she is very talented in agility and we both enjoy that very much also. should we stick to that and leave the sheep to the pros? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearse Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 there's been a lot of talk on the boards lately about non-herding breeds and akc bred bcs harrassing livestock in an effort to gain herding titles or bragging rights. well it got me thinking and i'm having, shall we say, a crisis in faith. my dog and i take herding lessons, attend seminars and have started trialing in "fun" trials. we are hobby herders. we do not have and probably never will have sheep. i am wondering if we should continue. she is a rescue and spayed so i don't know here lineage and have obviously no intention of breeding. we both enjoy the challenges of working stock and learning to work as a team. i'm very proud of how far my dog has come. BUT she and i will never be open material. if we work really hard, spend a lot of time and money, we may make it into pro-novice. are we just out there harrassing stock for our selfish pleasure? she is very talented in agility and we both enjoy that very much also. should we stick to that and leave the sheep to the pros? I think it's an honorable thing to ask the question and a brave one to ask it in a public forum. I think it comes down to a judgement call on your part. If it were me, the questions I would ask are these: 1) Can I get me and my dog to the point where we working stock in control, therefore not harassing them, in a reasonable amount of time? Young dogs learning stockwork usually chase the sheep in a way that may constitute harassment. They usually get past that stage pretty quickly in the hand of a decent handler or trainer. You and whomever you work with, would have to make that assessment. I don't think it's necessary to trial at Open level to exhibit good stockmanship. If you are working the stock properly and in control, you can do a lot of practical work without a 600 yard outrun and the ability to drive 200+yards. 2) What do I hope to get out of this? If it's just something to do with your dog, then maybe agility is a better road for you with this dog. If you are learning an appreciation for livestock and stockmanship, then it may be worth it for that alone. The more people learn about proper treatment of stock, the more advocates for stock and working dogs there are. Kudos to you for giving it serious thought. The fact that you are asking the question probably means that you'll come to the right answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 I'll echo Pearse's commendation, and add a thought of my own. The question I would ask is, is my dog treating the sheep fairly under my guidance and that of my trainer? There's nothing wrong with hobby herding and nothing wrong with pursuing the avenues available to you. What's wrong, and what I constitute "harassment," is when dogs of little talent are allowed to chase livestock and run them all over, creating an atmosphere of frantic chase and people yelling, rather than orderly control of the stock. If the sheep look constantly panicked and trying to escape, while the dog careens around them, it's not good. But if you see your lessons are going in a positive direction, if you feel the control you and your dog have of your stock is ever improving, if you feel there is calmness, fairness and respect for your stock in the things you and your dog do ... carry on! Ask yourself honestly if you feel good about the way the sheep are treated in the course of your lessons and practice, and therein lies your answer. Best wishes, Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 I agree with both of the above. If you are approaching the work with *respect* for the livestock and with an attitude that this isn't about a fun day out for the dog (equivalent to going to the dog park, for example) but rather a real learning experience with goals that include proper and careful management of livestock, then there's nothing wrong with continuing to work with a dog who might not be the most talented in the land. Both of my first two trial dogs never made it to open, but I learned a whole lot from (and with) them. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 ^^ What all of them said, Lisa! And, Lisa, I'll never be an Open handler and have despaired of making it to ProNov - but I train (and work) my dogs with the benefits to ourselves (my husband and I) and the livestock in mind, as the use of the dogs in our situation reduces stress and helps get a job done better. I think you need to consider your goal - is it a partnership with your dog? Are you putting the overall welfare of the livestock first? Are you after "titles" and ribbons and other "recognition", or are you taking a journey to understand your dog and what he/she instinctively wants to do, and deepen your relationship with him/her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejano Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 there's been a lot of talk on the boards lately about non-herding breeds and akc bred bcs harrassing livestock in an effort to gain herding titles or bragging rights. well it got me thinking and i'm having, shall we say, a crisis in faith. my dog and i take herding lessons, attend seminars and have started trialing in "fun" trials. we are hobby herders. we do not have and probably never will have sheep. i am wondering if we should continue. she is a rescue and spayed so i don't know here lineage and have obviously no intention of breeding. we both enjoy the challenges of working stock and learning to work as a team. i'm very proud of how far my dog has come. BUT she and i will never be open material. if we work really hard, spend a lot of time and money, we may make it into pro-novice. are we just out there harrassing stock for our selfish pleasure? she is very talented in agility and we both enjoy that very much also. should we stick to that and leave the sheep to the pros? I think you never know where you may end up with this dog, or the next pup so the experience is worthwhile. I may never get to a trial but hope to put the training I receive to use on my "hobby farm." to take the sheep to the orchard and bring them back at night. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rufftie Posted February 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 it's not about the ribbons or titles. at it's best, it's someone coming up to you and saying "nice dog". i enjoy the partnership and marvel at her instincts (though she sometimes finds my end of the partnership lacking. and she is right!) she was well started by an experienced handler so she doesn't generally harass the sheep but there are exciting moments. there is just something about it i find more satisfying than other human/dog endevors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Then, Rufftie, I'd say you're on a good path. Carry on, enjoy your dog and enjoy the journey with her! Cheers ~ Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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