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When Tony McCallum was here he said that through intensive selection and breeding practices that you could take any breed of dog, yes any, and breed your way to a herding dog over time, basically the herding instinct is hunting instinct and all dogs have it in them somewhere. No different then over time breeding away from the abilities by selecting for other traits.

 

Deb

 

It was Tony McCallum who was using the boerboel I referred to and I was really impressed. I know they were once farm/guard dogs in so. Africa, but now are largely used for protection work.

 

So then this boxer, should the opportunity ever arise, can have a career as a useful farm dog. Interesting. It would probably be better than some of the other breeds I've seen with herding ancestry.

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BTW - Here is a video from the Highland Games. While it is certainly questionable how much the sheep are following the handler vs. moving off the dog, the dog is clearly in much better control than it was in the other video.

 

The dog is UNDER much better control than it was in the other video. It is not IN control of anything.

 

I'm really just dumbfounded that anybody could think herding or stockwork was going on here. I didn't see a drop of it. What I saw was obedience in the presence of sheep, with the handler maneuvering the dog into a position where it did not prevent the sheep from doing what they were trained to do. A billiard ball would show as much stock sense.

 

Frankly the dog was as good as many non-BC's I have seen in other venues and she has obviously worked very hard with it. She is on a crusade to try to get the AKC (yes those initials again) let her breed compete in their herding trials.

 

Oh, how I hope she succeeds! Nothing could better illustrate how little that type of competition has to do with what working stockdogs are and do. And I totally believe you when you say the dog was as good as many non-BCs you've seen in other venues. I agree.

 

So then this boxer, should the opportunity ever arise, can have a career as a useful farm dog. Interesting.

 

You're not serious, right?

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You're not serious, right?

 

Oh, I don't know. Just entertaining some thoughts, hence all the questions I asked, which I might not have asked at all, had I not seen the boerboel worked by Tony McCallum doing what looked like a respectable job to me.

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Dear Doggers,

I once had a labrador retrieverxchesapeake bay retriever who would lie down in a gateway and the sheep wouldn't jump over her. Lucille certainly was a farm dog. Years ago, our cat learned that the feeding rank was lambs, ewes and lambs, rams, milk cow, calf, sheepdogs, humans, cat. She disliked her dining slot and sought to improve it. Tail erect, she'd charge toward the feeders, and the sheep would break around her. We called her our "Border Cattie" but she still ate last.

 

Donald McCaig

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Oh, I don't know. Just entertaining some thoughts, hence all the questions I asked, which I might not have asked at all, had I not seen the boerboel worked by Tony McCallum doing what looked like a respectable job to me.

 

Well, I apologize for my heated tone. I should have waited a bit before posting.

 

I just couldn't see anything in the videos of this dog that showed any stock sense, and I wondered if you DID see something, or if you were joking, or what. I do agree with McCallum that, if you breed long enough and intelligently enough for stock work, you can probably improve the stockworking abilities of any line of dogs. Evolution is certainly possible through artificial selection. It could take a long, long time, though, to get only a little way down that road.

 

I don't want to denigrate in any way the effort, patience and hard work the boxer's owner has obviously put in. It is evident. I just don't see any evident natural ability whatsoever on the part of the dog. And they are supposed to be dog trials.

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The comments about "useful farm dogs" remind me of our Airedale (and her grandmother) who both learned to be useful in one or more ways around the farm. My husband taught Tanya, the grandmother, to catch loose birds (it was a game farm) gently with her paws and hold them for him - she being, previously, death on any game bird she could catch. She was also a class-A rat killer and smal predator eliminator.

 

Arwen was a natural at pigs - or at least could figure out what we wanted, and got those little piggies moving where we needed them to go. She was not so successful with the huge sow that wandered over from the neighbor's place - Arwen couldn't even get a grip on that big mama.

 

Useful? Yes, in a limited way, and we were glad of them. Stockdogs? No. Useful in a variety of situations? No. But thanks for the trip down memory lane...

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The comments about "useful farm dogs" ...

 

Useful? Yes, in a limited way, and we were glad of them. Stockdogs? No. Useful in a variety of situations? No. But thanks for the trip down memory lane...

 

I have a Jack Russell that has the best nose grip of any dog I own (but only when the sheep walk up to him when his head is down a gopher hole :@) When he was younger (he's 14+ now) he would help me drive the sheep (when I was putting them where they wanted to go) by following them with me AND yes, he would flanks (no outrun however :@)

 

The operative phrase is WANTING to go. That's the same with the Boxer ... if she had NOT walked out on the outrun (so the sheep had someone to run TO) ... how do you think it would have gone? Those sheep are worked by ALL breeds (AKC) and follow people which all I saw happening. However, I didn't watch much ...

 

Great that she wants to do something with her dog ... but I would prefer to see it do agility than to make "sheep toys". But that's just me ...

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I have a Jack Russell that has the best nose grip of any dog I own (but only when the sheep walk up to him when his head is down a gopher hole :@)

 

that same thing popped into my head. I have a friend with a ton of border collies, also a few Jack Russell's thrown in the mix. Feisty lil guys. A few of them would run out with the big dogs when they sent them on outruns. They'd even keep up with them. Don't know if they had any nose grips but they had no fear that's for sure!

 

I saw no stock since in that boxer but still, what the owner had accomplished....if that was all you had...no scratch that, if you had a poor imitation of a border collie or that dog....I'll take that one. At least it wouldn't hurt my heart to see it giving it's all and that's all it had. It's not supposed to have any of "it" unlike ACK barbs.

 

You do have to wonder why the woman put that much time into something she was never going to excel at. I would think doing something like SAR or what ever a boxer was born to do (I know I'm being facetious) would be easier and I dunno, more satisfying.

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But that's herding, to many....and really easy to get stuck there especially if you are not willing to change breeds or upgrade dogs.

 

Oy..thinking about when I started the journey, the frustration until someone took me aside to show me how to lead sheep around the course, now realizing that we were being taught to make it look like the dogs were doing it, I actually got pretty good at it. Then thinking back to the day someone stopped by to visit that has worked with some of the western handlers, "why are you doing that? Your dog is showing ability and instinct." That was just after we purchased our first border collie pup (Jake), not all that long ago, not even 4 years ago.

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Tail erect, she'd charge toward the feeders, and the sheep would break around her. We called her our "Border Cattie" but she still ate last.

 

Hee hee. That's the video I'd rather be watching.

 

I agree with some of the comments about the dog looking better than some other herding breed dogs I've seen, and one AKC BC I've watched more than once who is a total train wreck, and does not seem to improve. Basically, I admire the owner for the control she's put on the dog and while I'd prefer they'd both (as in boxer lady and AKC BC lady) go do something else, I also would prefer any sheep I know to be subjected to the boxer that is at least under better control and whose owner is at least attempting to take the training seriously.

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Where were choose to say someone is educated (1st grade, 8th grade, high school, college, etc) says a lot about our standards. So what standard do you choose to set for herding?

 

Mark

 

This reminds me of a not exactly warm and fuzzy conversation I had with a breeder of Oz lines show border collies years ago, when she found out about my not-too-flattering opinions of trotting border collies around a ring in an effort to select the "ideal" border collie. She got up in my face and told me that her show dogs displayed their usefulness everyday at home with the few head of sheep she had and so to her they were useful, so who was I or anyone else to say that they were not. Reading between the lines, they were useful to HER as sheepdogs so who's to say she shouldn't breed them, claiming they were working dogs.

 

So I guess at what level are dogs considered useful and at what level are they not. Her standards for her show dogs were not that high, but to her that was enough to say that they are not only show dogs, but they work too, a huge feather in her ACK cap.

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This reminds me of a story....

 

 

A few years ago, I knew a person who had an AKC herding breed of dog. These dogs were still useful in some activities, but really were not breed with stock work in mind. there was a "fun day" being very generously held at their place. The sheep they had were very dog broke, and knew the routine. While the handlers and their dogs would hike the 400+ yards in order to send their dogs for a practice outrun, this person would hold these wise sheep with the " other" breed.

 

It didn't work.

 

while this dog was perfectly useful otherwise, bringing the sheep in at night, changing grazing fields, etc., when faced with sheep who REALLY didn't want to be held in the spot for another dog to pick them up and make them work, this poor dog had no hope of holding them. Had to get a Border Collie to do it. If all that was required of this "other" dog was to move or hold the packet of sheep, he looked great. However when the sheep had other ideas, he was very much out of his element. He had done well at some AKC trials, but when faced with a situation that called for guts and guile, he couldn't do it.

 

Many folks think just because their dog can work at home, he is "just like" those fancy trial Border Collies. That is why the trial course ( real Open with tough sheep) is such a test. If a person hasn't experienced the difference, he is easily mistaken.

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JenS,

 

I agree with you, and it also works the other way around. I was asked to present the development of my BC puppy on one of the Polish canine forums. The people there are mostly involved in other area of training but are very keen to learn. So once a person wrote, "To me it looks like the sheep are just following you docilely, while Bonnie is just wandering on the peripheries." The fact that the sheep were half cocked most of the time and were actually very well controlled by the dog completely escaped this person. I suppose watching the boxer, she would see little difference. This impression of not really doing much that BCs make when they are doing a good job, is somewhat frustrating. My friend did a herding presentation with his BCs, and then there was a Q&A time. One of the questions was "So it takes a few years to train the dog, how long does it take to train the sheep?"

 

Maja

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Dear Sheepdoggers,

 

Running a dog in a big sheepdog trial is the most challenging thing I have ever done.

 

While I am happy to see people doing with their dogs, and believe most man/dog activities that don't involve the word "fricassee" improve the well being of dog and owner alike and I have been known to suggest novices enter "herding" trials when the real thing is unavailable, I get peevish when people make these witless claims and trivialize what my dogs and I do.

 

"Herding" trials and "herding" dogs are to traditional trials and sheepdogs as the Special Olympics is to the Olympics.

 

Donald McCaig

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I'll throw out my $0.02. Watching this boxer was like watching an obedience show. I can appreciate the time it took to train these behaviors and I can applaud the owner for wanting to spend that much time with their dog. I wish the vast majority of pet owners had more desire to do something... anything... with their dogs. The dog looks happy to be out and playing a game with his handler. But to me that's all it is, a game. It's a bunch of very trained behaviors, that's all. It's like watching a heel pattern or directed fetch, interesting but something that pretty much any breed of dog can learn.

 

It lacks that extra x-factor that working dogs have. The fact that you can see a sheepdog thinking, working on it's own, moving a little to the right, then to the left when it's needed... not just when the handler says so. I didn't see really any stock sense in the boxer at all. The dog downed when he was told to but was more than happy to stay there and look around until the handler commanded. When my dogs down they rarely take their eyes off the sheep. The sheep were happy to follow the woman so the dog could probably have stayed in a down in the shade and the sheep would have gone in the pen. I guess the whole thing to me was like watching a shadow of a true sheepdog.

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"Herding" trials and "herding" dogs are to traditional trials and sheepdogs as the Special Olympics is to the Olympics.

 

Well I don't know about that, I would relate it more to school yard play where regardless of your talent and abilities all are able to play.

 

 

I think one should give the competitors at the Special Olympics alot of credit, they work as hard training and conditioning as those participating in the Olympic Games and from what I have seen also have talent within their discipline.

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I guess the whole thing to me was like watching a shadow of a true sheepdog.

 

I don't think there is anyone here who would disagree with that. Even those of us who said Pip the boxer did a respectable job, likened it to "obedience herding" and that the she did ok considering her limitations and because of the the type of stock used. I don't think there's anyone saying that this should be used as any sort of example of real stockwork, is there?

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"Herding" trials and "herding" dogs are to traditional trials and sheepdogs as the Special Olympics is to the Olympics.

 

Donald McCaig

 

Given the role of human intervention and agency in the case of breeding dogs involved in "herding" and stockwork, this strikes me as a fairly ill considered analogy.

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Found this on a Boxer forum....

 

 

I wish I lived in California as I would love to go to this. I bet it would be a blast. See the below which I have pasted from an email in case any of you who live in the area would like to attend.

 

Well, it's time! The 1st US herding instinct tests specifically for Boxers, professionally judged, and for which passing dogs will receive a Herding Instinct Certificate (HIC), issued by a US Boxer Club, is happening in Escondido, California 12/27!

 

http://www.bcsfv.com/Events.htm

and

http://www.bcsfv.com/BCSF%20Herding.pdf

 

As some of you may know, there have been instinct test for Boxers in Canada and the percentage of Boxers that passed that first organized instinct test was a good 10% HIGHER than the other breeds testing that day. Most Boxers passed with flying colors!

 

So, please come and give your Boxer the chance to participate in, well, history, and receive a certificate for their efforts. The testing will take place on 12/27 at Action K9 Sports in Escondido, Ca. The link above has directions and a downloadable PDF to pre-register. There will be limited spots available, so please send in your registration as soon as you can.

 

The Boxer Club of San Fernando Valley is sponsoring this first US instinct test and will issue a lovely certificate signed by the herding judge and the president of BCSFV. Terry Parrish (AKC and AHBA herding judge) will be conducting the instinct tests and said to remind all of us that there is no experience required for a herding test.

 

The tests are short and will be following the AKC requirements for an instinct test:

 

The dog is brought into a small arena on a (minimum) 6’ lead. The judge is looking for dogs

that show a sustained interest in the stock, by either going around them, gathering them, moving them toward the handler, or moving them ahead of the handler, or a combination. The judge will assess instinct and trainability. The judge will fill out a standard assessment form detailing the way the dog works with livestock, and will award a certificate of instinct, should the dog pass.

 

At Pip's instinct test, we walked into the pen with the judge and 3 sheep. The judge told me to drop the lead and run toward the sheep encouraging Pip to chase them. The judge had a long reed that she used to redirect Pip so she did not get too close to the sheep by placing it in front of her nose. There were no harsh corrections in other words! I was told to simply encourage Pip to keep chasing and to let her know she was a "good girl" over and over throughout the test. High prey driven or toy motivated Boxes will do very well! Their "interest" in the sheep and their trainability are the main characteristics judged. They are not expected to know how to move sheep...they should just want to try to!

 

On 12/27 there will also be a Rottweiler Herding Match just prior to the instincts tests. Rottweilers were the first working breed to gain acceptance by the AKC to participate in herding trials with the herding group. Arriving at 11am will allow you to see one of these dogs work sheep in a mock trial situation. Then Pip and I will=2

0demonstrate the way a Boxer works on the same course. If we are lucky, a young Boxer (9 months old!), may be making her debut on the same course.

 

So, please come. Our judge is the AKC judge that championed the Rottweilers in their early days and is looking forward to seeing how Boxers do. Let's show her!

 

Training:

All dogs, even border collies, start their training by having any interest in interacting with livestock encouraged. Gradually they are trained to work with you to move sheep where you want them to go and that makes up the first level of titling in the sport.

 

Trials:

At a trial, your dog helps you move the sheep through obstacles in an arena on a set course. Much like you would encounter at other dog sports, you are given a map of the course ahead of time and decide your strategy for moving the sheep. The judge awards points toward a passing score according to how well your dog helps you move the sheep. There are placements, high in trial and other goodies to experience at a herding trial as well...and if you think a Boxer knows he/she has done well in other venues and shows you by prancing about about after finishing by generally b

eing a goof ball, wait till you see a Boxer that has moved livestock and been praised for it...they go crazy with happiness...because they were really, really working with you and these smarty pants know it...

 

Titles:

Though the HIC is not a title that one can use when entering their dogs in AKC events or added to your dog's AKC titles, but just like all the other agility organization titles you may receive, that are not added to the end of your dogs name when entering AKC events, they are titles or designations, (like the HIC designation) your dog displays at all other times.

 

Boxers are not (yet!!!), allowed to participate in AKC Herding trials, but you can add titles and designations from other awarding organizations and clubs to indicate your dog's working ability to your web sites or in other descriptions of your dog's achievements.

 

This type of event is the first step in several that are required by the AKC to show interest by the breed, to participate in herding events. As time goes on, we will need to stage Boxer herding "days" and other such fun/match type events, herding instinct certificates and interest by the parent club to petition to participate in AKC trials for titles.

 

BUT, Boxers may trial and receive titles from the American Herding Breed Association in herding, which is the venue that Pip and I have trialed and achieved titles through.

 

Hope to see lots of Boxers at the first US Boxer Herding Instinct Tests! Pip and I will be gettin

g our first official herding instinct certificate then too!

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