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i'm sure it's a wonderful dog and a damn fine boxer. but herding, i'm not impressed. watched the video of what must have been ranch/large flock. those sheep would have followed that woman dog or not. best that could be said was it didn't eat the sheep.

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Allowing a dog to chase sheep, while going in for a grab every now and then, is abuse to me. Yes, young border collies can display this behavior, but with proper training they quickly move past this phase to work stock calmly. This boxer will never get beyond this stage--and those poor sheep will be running for safety every time.

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Totally not impressive. Any dog could chase like that. I've seen a Yorkie do a better job, and that was by accident.

 

I've also seen a UTube video of a boxer "herding" and there was no stock sense shown, just an obedient dog doing what it was told to do, on sheep that were so dog-broke and handler-broke that it looked like more than it was.

 

As Laura said, I'd call it abuse of the sheep because nothing was going to be accomplished of any worth, IMO. Just because you *can* try and do something, doesn't mean you *should*.

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The dog was chasing sheep. Period.

 

I have personally seen the dog run in a USBCHA Novice trial in San Diego (Highland Games) where I was running Pro-Novice. It would not have won the class but it did do remarkably well within its limitations. I first stopped to watch (and videotape) expecting an Americas Funniest Video type moment but it actually did fairly well.

 

 

The owner/handler is under no illusions that she will actually be competitive against working border collies but is doing quite well at what I would generally call "obedience herding".

 

BTW - Here is a video from the Highland Games. While it is certainly questionable how much the sheep are following the handler vs. moving off the dog, the dog is clearly in much better control than it was in the other video.

 

http://www.youtube.com/magrammedia#p/u/10/n7Dh2Z-0X5Y[/media]

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Allowing a dog to chase sheep, while going in for a grab every now and then, is abuse to me. Yes, young border collies can display this behavior, but with proper training they quickly move past this phase to work stock calmly. This boxer will never get beyond this stage--and those poor sheep will be running for safety every time.

I don't own sheep and Scooter doesn't herd, but even I could see that all that dog was doing was chasing sheep and they looked like they were running for their lives. <_<

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I have personally seen the dog run in a USBCHA Novice trial in San Diego (Highland Games) where I was running Pro-Novice. It would not have won the class but it did do remarkably well within its limitations. I first stopped to watch (and videotape) expecting an Americas Funniest Video type moment but it actually did fairly well.

 

 

The owner/handler is under no illusions that she will actually be competitive against working border collies but is doing quite well at what I would generally call "obedience herding".

 

BTW - Here is a video from the Highland Games. While it is certainly questionable how much the sheep are following the handler vs. moving off the dog, the dog is clearly in much better control than it was in the other video.

 

http://www.youtube.com/magrammedia#p/u/10/n7Dh2Z-0X5Y[/media]

That is precisely the video I was referring to - and, yes, the dog is under much better control. I guess I'm just the kind of person that feels that stressing stock for entertainment and "because I want to and I can" is not justified.

 

Training for a purpose, to produce a working stockdog that will actually work (and the good use of a stockdog reduces stress for the handler and the stock) and/or a working stockdog that will trial (which, along with farm/ranch work will also provide feedback on the results of a breeding decision), justifies the reasonable stress that training causes. Training "just for the fun of it" does not justify stessing livestock - in this case, they become no more than "dog toys" even if well-managed.

 

JMO, and I'm sticking to it.

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The funny thing is...that Boxer did alot better than ALL non-working bred border collies i've seen....

 

I was interested in knowing why she ran a "non-compete" run...would have been interesting to see what happened if she stayed at the post...she should have not made it seem like she would have won the class if she was running competitively....certainly easy to get a nice score when you walk half way up the field...

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The funny thing is...that Boxer did alot better than ALL non-working bred border collies i've seen....

 

I was interested in knowing why she ran a "non-compete" run...would have been interesting to see what happened if she stayed at the post...she should have not made it seem like she would have won the class if she was running competitively....certainly easy to get a nice score when you walk half way up the field...

 

I talked to her after that trial.

 

Like I said I first grabbed my camera thinking it was going to be a disaster but it was not. The dog was under control (which some of the Border Collies were not) but it was largely what I call "obedience herding". Put the dog in position and give it a good lie down. It did have a good stop and was advanced beyond the video at the beginning of this thread.

 

Frankly the dog was as good as many non-BC's I have seen in other venues and she has obviously worked very hard with it. She is on a crusade to try to get the AKC (yes those initials again) let her breed compete in their herding trials. She does not ever expect to really compete with Border Collies and she was very impressed with the BC's at the trial.

 

As for non-compete - it was her first time attempting this sort of trial. I don't remember whether the class she was in would have required a drive leg or not but she knew her dog could not do that. Rather than risk harassing the stock she ran non-compete so she could be out near the sheep and dog if she needed to intervene.

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I haven't watched the second video yet, but it is not surprising to me that a boxer (or any other breed) could look better than even working-bred border collies on a novice field. Young/untrained-up border collies feel an instinct to move sheep, and that strong unchanneled drive, coupled with the often ineffective direction of a novice handler, often results in wrecks in novice trials. By contrast, a well-trained boxer, who feels no natural compulsion to do anything in particular with the sheep, may be much easier to control on such a small course. Many a talented young border collie is a terror on sheep early on. Sometimes the ones who look very promising early on turn out to be less so as they age. This is exactly why a novice course is not the place to judge a border collie's talent.

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If that is herding, than my Shih Tzu can compete!

With that being said, I was actually pretty impressed with this dogs athletic ability. Most Boxers I've worked with don't have the "Desire" to learn this kind of herding (which looks like it has been "trained" to herd vs actual working ability) or would be gasping for air running that much.

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The second video did not show me anything that looked like stockwork. The Boxer was obedient, certainly. But he showed no interest in the sheep, and simply moved in whatever direction the handler asked him to move. I have owned a Lassie collie, a GSD, a Doberman Pinscher and a number of mutts that could do that.

 

At least in the second video that dog wasn't terrorizing the sheep. But neither did he have any other apparent interest or interaction in/with them. He just went where he was told.

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Obedience herding or not, in the second video, that boxer did a respectable job. in my opinion. I actually was impressed that a boxer actually had an outrun. Can a non-herding breed develop some stock sense? I believe so, to a limited extent, maybe enough to be a useful farm dog, certainly not to the extent of a working border collie, but maybe enough to be actually be of some use. Maybe it would surprise us all.

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Obedience herding or not, in the second video, that boxer did a respectable job. in my opinion. I actually was impressed that a boxer actually had an outrun. Can a non-herding breed develop some stock sense? I believe so, to a limited extent, maybe enough to be a useful farm dog, certainly not to the extent of a working border collie, but maybe enough to be actually be of some use. Maybe it would surprise us all.

 

I totally expected to see a train wreck in both videos. Both of them didn't "hurt" me to watch.

We talk about border collies being trained to do stock work with a purpose. I agree but with all the hobby people out there (and I think I might fall into that catagory a bit because the sheep I own are also for working dogs as much as marketing fat lambs) you have to realize that "herding" is now as much a hobby as a need.

It showed me how much this lady put into her non working dog to get it to a place where it could be a bit useful if need be.

There can't be much of a reason or need for this but I'd rather see that than see the "dumbed" down ACK breed being worked with the words, "herding breed" out there making all of our border collies look so sad or bad.

JMHO

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^^What Vicki and Kristen said. I thought the boxer did a respectable job in the second video, too. Obviously he doesn't compare to working Border Collies, but with that type of sheep and course, he did fine. When I watched the first video, I figured it was an early exposure to sheep, and it was rough, but so are a lot of dogs' first time (lots of chasing and gripping). As Kristen said, I don't really see the need for a "herding" boxer, but it wasn't that bad, either.

 

Wonder if the owner will ever consider Border Collies. :D

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When did the USBCHA start sanctioning Novice classes?

 

Would of, should of, could of almost won a class that does not exist does not impress me but tagging USBCHA in a story to what a dog could have done does lend a bit of false prestige to those who don't know better.

 

I would say the same thing reguardless of the breed of dog.

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^^What he said. Additionally, you won't win even a novice class if you have to leave the post and walk most of the way down the field to make sure the dog does a proper outrun (leaving the post is an automatic retire). Nor are you likely to win a novice class (or any class) if you don't do a proper turn around the post (in open not making the turn can cause you to be DQed). This is just the sort of claim people like to make about what their dogs *could do, if only* that makes me cringe. The minute she left the post, the dog could NOT have won the class, period. Yes the dog was under control and the sheep were not disturbed, but I imagine the picture would be quite different if the sheep weren't well broke and people friendly. I wonder what would have happened if the sheep hadn't been easy to pen. I'm not dissing the work shown in the second video--the dog was under control and the sheep were clearly NOT stressed, but I think the work shows only what the dog can/will do when the handler is in close enough proximity to *make* the dog listen.

 

J.

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First, the dog is definitely obedient and obviously has learned that the commands do pertain in some way to his proximity to the sheep. Smart dog. But I don't see it as real stock work because the dog has to be told exactly where to be at all times not having the instinct to be in the right place himself. One thing I noticed and I'm not sure if it is just the camera angle or the way the field is set up, but at the end of his outrun and the sheep start taking off, it looks as if he is not at all in the right place to cover them as they squirt off the side. Then they seem to bend right back around the tree and head directly to the handler. Was there someone off to the side out of camera range that perhaps had a dog that redirected the sheep?

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First, the dog is definitely obedient and obviously has learned that the commands do pertain in some way to his proximity to the sheep. Smart dog. But I don't see it as real stock work because the dog has to be told exactly where to be at all times not having the instinct to be in the right place himself. One thing I noticed and I'm not sure if it is just the camera angle or the way the field is set up, but at the end of his outrun and the sheep start taking off, it looks as if he is not at all in the right place to cover them as they squirt off the side. Then they seem to bend right back around the tree and head directly to the handler. Was there someone off to the side out of camera range that perhaps had a dog that redirected the sheep?

 

No one off to the side. The sheep generally wanted to squirt to the handler's left as you look up the field. There was a stand of trees to that side and another route up the hill to the left of the trees which the sheep tried hard to get to. Once they made up their minds to go that way very few dogs managed to get around them and bring them back. This trial is famous BTW for the sheep wanting to escape around the hill or through the stand of trees.

 

At the risk of embarrassing myself by showing one of my poorer runs the video of my PN run from the same trial may give a bit of an idea where the sheep wanted to run. We did not do a particularly good job but it can give an idea of how the sheep wanted to behave. Although we had some splits and some attempted escapes I thought my dog showed some initiative in putting them back together and retrieving them from an attempted escape. But clearly not a good run.

 

http://www.youtube.com/magrammedia#p/u/8/fzrjhesD5_A

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OK, not even taking this to imagining that this boxer can compete in a legitimate trial. I've seen a lot of border collies obedience trained through novice levels of herding competition that didn't show as much enthusiasm as this boxer. My question is, can a non-herding dog develop enough stock sense to be useful as a farm dog --- not a trial dog, but as a dog working with livestock on a farm? An intelligent dog, a non herding dog, a dog smart enough to be observant enough to know what to do when his owner wants livestock from point A to Point B without going through the petunia beds or the too close to the road, but this route specifically to get to Point B and into another pasture. The owner of the boxer might have been telling the dog where to be at each and every point, but the dog looked a tad beyond obedience training to me. Border collies aside, this boxer appeared to do much better than some herding breeds I've seen --- and a lot keener about it too than some of those breeds. I just have a feeling that this particular boxer might be able to pick up on some simple practical livestock work with enough exposure and make a useful farm dog --- or am I way off base here.

 

I watched a you tube video with a boerboel bitch wearing cattle, bringing back one who bolted off and tucking it back into the herd and brought the herd into the pasture where the owner was waiting with the gate open.

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I've been told of a Brittney that has been used on a cattle operation, she heels, she gathers and is quite useful.

 

When Tony McCallum was here he said that through intensive selection and breeding practices that you could take any breed of dog, yes any, and breed your way to a herding dog over time, basically the herding instinct is hunting instinct and all dogs have it in them somewhere. No different then over time breeding away from the abilities by selecting for other traits.

 

When we do the demonstrations at the outdoors show with the hunting dogs you can really see how close the border collie is to the hunting breeds, many of the traits we use for stock work the hunters use for bird hunting. The hunters have just selected a bit differently so as to get different traits and reactions to rise to the top. Pointing, honoring, holding and not breaking while the birds flush, all can be seen in our border collies just not in the same context. Even when bird dogs cast out to find birds, very simular to a border collie outrunning, but also very different, either way they are going out to find livestock/prey.

 

Deb

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