D Strickland Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Hey Dave, let them know that some of us up here in Iowa and Nebraska are talking about coming down that way more often. I was told that we need to quit beating up on each other and travel other places a bit Deb Hi Deb, You and yours have a place to train here in Collinsville. Sheep and goats only .. sorry .. no cattle. I'm also sure that Tom and Ruth Hines would love to have you over to work cattle - they are good people - but you may want to ask them .... and not take my word for it !!! LOL We have a playday coming up on Feb 12th at Tom and Ruth's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Darn it all, now Dave has me thinking about trophy buckles.. we haven't won any buckles yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 We have a playday coming up on Feb 12th at Tom and Ruth's. They just sent me an e-mail on that, it's a bit of a haul for a fun day, about 10 hours for me. Right now the plan is to come down on the 5th, first to Moody to pick up my young dog and then to come over to Prairie Grove for the trial. But, if the weather is bad I will be coming down a couple of weeks later and then going to the Mountain Home trial put on by Myra and Randy. Are you planning on coming over to Larry's or Roy's this spring for their sheepdog trials? Deb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Strickland Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Are you planning on coming over to Larry's or Roy's this spring for their sheepdog trials? Deb I committed to a sheepdog demo in Ponca City on the weekend of Roy's trial - not sure if I can make Larry's because my work schedule is not out for May yet. I sure would like to. Bree should be back up to trial shape by then .. I hope. My Dollar dog might be ready by then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana A Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 It's too bad the ABCA won't just take the leap to ban dual registration. What were the reasons people gave for being opposed to it back when it was first proposed? There was some talk on the borderlines thread about people contacting directors and expressing their negative opinions about the idea. I know why someone active in AKC would not want it as they know the value of those dogs to the AKC gene pool, but assuming those are probably a small minority within ABCA, what reasoning was given by everyone else opposed? Just curious, if some people were seeing a down side to the idea for ABCA, what was it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Hey Dave, do you think that it is decietful when a handler advertises that their dog(s) and themselves are proven at the highest level when they have only competed in Novice or Ranch at a trial that had a Open and Nursery class that was sanctioned with USBCHA or when they competed at a unsanctioned trial that was judged with a course design as described by ISDS? Same with "Open Field", open field meaning in a open field or on a Open Course of a USBCHA sanctioned trial... Deb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Strickland Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Hey Dave, do you think that it is decietful when a handler advertises that their dog(s) and themselves are proven at the highest level when they have only competed in Novice or Ranch at a trial that had a Open and Nursery class that was sanctioned with USBCHA or when they competed at a unsanctioned trial that was judged with a course design as described by ISDS? Deb I have just moved to Open and before ran in Open Ranch .. which is the whole course without the shed.. I never claimed to be a Big Hat or that I won an Open class trial. That claim is really mute since no USBCHA handler will ever look at my dogs or pups because there are ACK dogs and breeders in there. So really I am selling this litter to small farm and ranch homes .. and pet homes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Actually it is not mute, since many suggest to new buyers to look for handlers that have competed at the Open level. It's not the USBCHA handlers that would be decieved. At least those promoting their buckles have earned them, regardless if the test was truely at the highest level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Strickland Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Same with "Open Field", open field meaning in a open field or on a Open Course of a USBCHA sanctioned trial... Deb I am not trying to deceive anyone - I was just stating that I've tried it all and came back to USBCHA trials - but if that's what you are thinking ... you're probably not the only one so I'll change the terminology to keep the peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana A Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 This all got me to thinking of another question. How do the livestock guardian dog people handle this issue? Do they have their own registries, like ABCA for border collies? How have they handled the whole AKC thing? I know the Great Pyrenes at least is an AKC breed - not sure about the others, maybe they are in by now too. How do people who need a real working LGD know where to find one and not look at AKC dogs? How do they keep the breed pure for working (or is the job so much simpler than what a border collie does that it isn't as much of an issue? After all, there are no competitions for what a LGD does). I know one big part of it is probably that LGD's aren't 'good at everything' like the border collie, so maybe the simple difference in popularity is enough to protect them. But is there anything else? Just wondering if we might get any ideas from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 These are both interesting treads. Just a question: Would you sell a pup to someone who use to or still competes in akc? I sometimes feel lost. I would LOVE to get a working bred pup for my next agility dog. Yet it seem that not many if any would sell a pup to me since I trial maybe a total of 5-9x weekends in a year with akc. then you want to know how to spread the working dog quality to the general public? Hoping when the time comes for my next pup I will be able to find someone who would be willing to sell me a quality working pup. If not, not my lost per say. Just another buyer who would go elsewhere for my pup. Will explain better after class. Lol typing on a phone is a pain even when you have a droid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 I am not trying to deceive anyone - I was just stating that I've tried it all and came back to USBCHA trials - but if that's what you are thinking ... you're probably not the only one so I'll change the terminology to keep the peace. Your not the first that I have seen do it, I've even seen a Aussie breeder advertise a top 5 placing at a USBCHA trial that was not USBCHA and their placing was in the Ranch class. I know that over the last few years as we came around to understanding what we are doing I have unknownly done the same thing, and I know that I have made adjustments on my site when I realized the error in my thinking. There is a balance when your advertising via the internet and sometimes the way you intend it is not understood the same way on the other side. There are many that come over from the other venues that do not have a accuarte understanding of what Open, Field, & USBCHA really is, to a degree they are buzz words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Strickland Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 These are both interesting treads. Just a question: Would you sell a pup to someone who use to or still competes in akc? No offence but both parents have the potential to be great dogs so I would like to keep the pups in working homes and not with AKC. However, from what I'm reading on these posts I should probably just drown the whole litter because the dam is AKC and the sire comes from an AKC person. So I'm trying to do the right thing but I'm being told that there is no way .... I guess I'm stuck !!! HHHUUMMM ... now what ?????? I'm open to suggestions ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Actually it is not mute, since many suggest to new buyers to look for handlers that have competed at the Open level. It's not the USBCHA handlers that would be decieved. At least those promoting their buckles have earned them, regardless if the test was truely at the highest level. You guys... Moot. It's moot. Not mute. (Sorry. It's a personal problem... I just can't stand incorrect spelling/usage. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Strickland Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 I know that over the last few years as we came around to understanding what we are doing I have unknownly done the same thing, and I know that I have made adjustments on my site when I realized the error in my thinking. There is a balance when your advertising via the internet and sometimes the way you intend it is not I really do appreciate you bringing this up to my attention. I will make the change tonight after I get home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Strickland Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 You guys... Moot. It's moot. Not mute. (Sorry. It's a personal problem... I just can't stand incorrect spelling/usage. ) LOL ... I bug my wife all the time about that Rick Springfield song where he says "Moot" and I argue that it should be Mute !!!! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 However, from what I'm reading on these posts I should probably just drown the whole litter because the dam is AKC and the sire comes from an AKC person. So I'm trying to do the right thing but I'm being told that there is no way .... I guess I'm stuck !!! HHHUUMMM ... now what ?????? I'm open to suggestions ... Enough about your litter. Puppies may not be offered for sale on this site, either directly or indirectly. I did wonder about the timing of this sudden burst of attention-seeking posts. . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Strickland Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Enough about your litter. Puppies may not be offered for sale on this site, either directly or indirectly. I did wonder about the timing of this sudden burst of attention-seeking posts. . . . Eileen ... this all started with my question about how to keep AKC from registering pups ... it has snowballed since .... Going back to lurking and replying every once in a while when work will allow - work is slow now so I have more time for this .... This tread has run it's course ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Dave, Of course you don't need to drown your litter, and you're just being overly dramatic about it. But I would suggest that you reconsider any future breeding plans until you have really put some time in (time beyond AKC titles, in other words) and truly have an understanding of the knowledge and research that should go in to breeding decisions in order to have the best chance of producing good working dogs. Claiming that no one here will buy your pups because they are all ACK-related is only partially true. ACK is certainly a major turn off for *me* but more important is the fact that it doesn't sound as if either dog is well proven as worthy of being bred in the first place, and that's at least as much of a turn off as breeding ACK-registered dogs. As far as farm dogs are concerned or if one is interested in the work or training a dog has on a regular basis, if you've been involved with USBCHA trialing you get to know folks and folks who know you are reasonably likely to be honest about dogs (how they were to start, what they can handle at home--that is, not on the trial field, and so on). Sure there are folks out there who won't necessarily be as truthful, but if one takes the time to become truly involved in a particular culture, then one can generally tap into the necessary resources to find the information one needs about specific dogs. There's that pesky word though: time. There are no shortcuts. Oh, and here's another kernel of wisdom. One can usually find well-bred litters. So really, unless you have such a stellar specimen of the working dog world that you have big hats and busy farmers knocking on your dooor begging you (the generic you) to breed, it's probably safer to err on the side of caution (not breed) than to just go out and produce litters because you think you can place them somewhere (on the strength of their AKC titles). SS Cressa, I would take situations like the question you pose on a case-by-case basis. Certainly I would be clear that I would prefer a dog I produced to not be registered with the AKC, but if for some reason you were the perfect owner in every other way, and I really wanted you to have a pup, then I'd probably sell it on a non-breeding contract or limited registration. These discussions have taken place here numerous times in the past: many folks who compete in sports don't want the breeding option taken away, but honestly I think that's the only way a working dog breeder can make sure that his/her lines aren't carried over into the AKC, and that being the case, I suspect you would look elsewhere anyway. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Strickland Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Dave, Of course you don't need to drown your litter, and you're just being overly dramatic about it. But I would suggest th Thanks for replying Julie ... and NO .. I'm not going to drown my litter. This is just another reason why I didn't want to breed, and have never bred in the past. Going to feed and work dogs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Moot! sorry! As for your pups, don't drowned the pups, if you feel strongly about not supporting AKC just burn the papers (LOL). There are some options depending on what your want to do, sell them as unregistered or you could register them with one of the open working dog registries that AKC does not honor if you want to sell them with a documented pedigree. The purpose is not to sell and present registered pups but rather to have a paper pedigree that is certified, otherwise just hand write a pedigree with a guaranty of authenticity, sign it and have it notorized. It would also insure that the dogs will not add to the AKC gene pool, you could sell them to AKC people but they would have to run them into the pet program and alter them to compete, no need for spay/neuter contracts and if they are unaltered and good they can be proven and maybe come back via the ROM program. Personally, I don't really care if my dogs are registered. If I have ABCA registered dogs I will register the pups but I won't exclude a good dog from my breeding program due to be unregistered. If I have a good unregistered female that I could get ROM papers on I would probably do it so long as it was not a bigger PITA then it was worth, most that have purchased pups from us are doing so based on their working ability and really don't care if they are registered or not. None of our ACD's are registered, we aren't even bothering with the open working dog registries at this point. The registration papers don't make the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 This is just another reason why I didn't want to breed, and have never bred in the past. So why did you breed this time? Seriously. If you don't want to breed and have never bred in the past, then why did you now? J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCStarkey Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Hi Dave, This is just another reason why I didn't want to breed, and have never bred in the past. I have owned Border Collies for almost 40 years, and I never wanted to breed either. So, I had my dogs spayed and neutered, and guess what: I never had a litter! Regards, nancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Dave this apparently got missed and I am truely interested. If you had no plans to breed WHY do you have pups? Was it an oops litter? If ABCA registered will you put them on NB papers so any that go into AKC will not be eligible for pups being registered with ABCA? To the person asking about lgd'S for most of the farmers I know papers are not in the least important. Additionally there can be a complex interplay of breeding and early environment to make up a good LGD and I do not think it is as complex a deal as with breeding BC's In the early days of using LGD's it was a crap shoot if a dog worked or not now you can find more working proved litters. I will add that around here mixed breed litters for LGD's seem in demand, especially Pyr x Anatolian So they do not keep them 'pure'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 How do the livestock guardian dog people handle this issue? Do they have their own registries, like ABCA for border collies? How have they handled the whole AKC thing? I know the Great Pyrenes at least is an AKC breed - not sure about the others, maybe they are in by now too. How do people who need a real working LGD know where to find one and not look at AKC dogs? How do they keep the breed pure for working (or is the job so much simpler than what a border collie does that it isn't as much of an issue? After all, there are no competitions for what a LGD does). I know one big part of it is probably that LGD's aren't 'good at everything' like the border collie, so maybe the simple difference in popularity is enough to protect them. But is there anything else? Just wondering if we might get any ideas from them. I think Pam beat me to it. I don't know of any working LGD's that are reg. with anything. And where do you go to find your working LGD? To a farm where the parents are being used and worked of course. Would you go to some ACK breeder of Pyr's and look at the bitch in someone house all housey dog like and think those pups are going to be good to guard? Same is if you are looking for your next BC pup. You'd go to where you can see the parents or research till you can see other pups of that breeding out there working. Don't know about all LGD's but mosts issues I see with them are training issues, or fencing issues not breed issues per say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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