D Strickland Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Hi all ... again .... This is a continuation of the dual registering conversation that is taking place on the BCSA tread. I have to re-iterate that I am only playing Devil's Advocate here. I started with USBCHA trial and my first trial was under Glyn Jones ... and I am extremely proud of that. I crossed over to the "dark side" about 3 years ago to see how the other half lived. I helped start a BC club, an AKC club, and an ASCA club. I trialled in AKC, ASCA, AHBA but came back to USBCHA because I didn't like what I saw with the other programs. My question is ...... Should we dual register with AKC and place a breeding restriction on the puppies since that appears to be the only way to stop the AKC from using ABCA working dogs in their breeding programs. On my previous posts I was playing the part of an AKC person trialling in both camps and wanting to dual register ... I'm not playing that part here ... my flame retardant suit is burnt-up !!!! LOL I guess we'll just have a normal conversation .... Anyone have some Aloe for all these burns I have !!! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCStarkey Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Hello everyone, My question is ...... Should we dual register with AKC and place a breeding restriction on the puppies since that appears to be the only way to stop the AKC from using ABCA working dogs in their breeding programs. As someone who fought The Dog Wars, I will not give one penny of my money to the AKC, nor would I ever suggest that anyone else do the same. I feel that the best way to "stop the AKC from using ABCA working dogs in their breeding programs" is for breeders to never allow their ABCA registered puppies to be registered with the AKC. Regards, nancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Strickland Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 How does someone go about blocking AKC registration on their pups ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCStarkey Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Hi Dave, How does someone go about blocking AKC registration on their pups ? Here is the section from Eileen Stein's puppy contract that covers it: "" 3. The Buyer shall not register the puppy or permit the puppy to be registered with the American Kennel Club (AKC). Because the parties recognize that precise damages for breach of this provision might be difficult to ascertain, the parties hereby agree that the Buyer will be liable for damages in the amount of a minimum of $1,000.00 in the event of any breach by the Buyer of this provision of the contract. "" Regards, nancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Strickland Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Hi Dave, Here is the section from Eileen Stein's puppy contract that covers it: "" 3. The Buyer shall not register the puppy or permit the puppy to be registered with the American Kennel Club (AKC). Because the parties recognize that precise damages for breach of this provision might be difficult to ascertain, the parties hereby agree that the Buyer will be liable for damages in the amount of a minimum of $1,000.00 in the event of any breach by the Buyer of this provision of the contract. "" Regards, nancy Eileen, Can I use the above statement in my puppy contract ? How enforceable is it ? Thanks .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Eileen, Can I use the above statement in my puppy contract ? How enforceable is it ? Thanks .... We put it online so it could be used. Wouldn't be much point if it weren't enforceable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Ok ... so the avenue of enforcement is what? Small claims? You show up in court with the contract in hand, and now you need to prove the person violated the contract. "Spot" is registered as "Spot" with the ABCA, but is registered as "Sir Fluffybutt PansyAss FancyPaws" with the AKC. The burden of proof is on the plaintiff. The defendant says that they didn't dual register the dog. How do you prove your case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toney Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 I can honestly say that it seems Dave is definitely playing a game here, he calls it "devil's advocate" others might call it "trolling". Before we all spend a lot of valuable dog training time on this subject, here's what five minutes on the internet told me about Dave and his "anti-AKC" sentiment. Concerning his border collies- Bree (Lock-Eye Breezin Around Ewe), he stated he saw the AKC Agility Nationals in her future (paraphrasing here) when he bought her in a letter on the website of her breeder- since the breeder registers "AKC and ABCA on request", and he was contemplating the AKC Agility nationals, she is probably dual registered. He has been an AKC B Course director, which he freely admits to being, and his other dog is related to an AKC Kennel owned by a herding judge/breeder, I'm taking a leap (and I freely admit it here- total supposition on my part) Dollar is dual registered as well. So how can you really care about preventing dual registration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Strickland Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 I can honestly say that it seems Dave is definitely playing a game here, he calls it "devil's advocate" others might call it "trolling". Before we all spend a lot of valuable dog training time on this subject, here's what five minutes on the internet told me about Dave and his "anti-AKC" sentiment. Concerning his border collies- Bree (Lock-Eye Breezin Around Ewe), he stated he saw the AKC Agility Nationals in her future (paraphrasing here) when he bought her in a letter on the website of her breeder- since the breeder registers "AKC and ABCA on request", and he was contemplating the AKC Agility nationals, she is probably dual registered. He has been an AKC B Course director, which he freely admits to being, and his other dog is related to an AKC Kennel owned by a herding judge/breeder, I'm taking a leap (and I freely admit it here- total supposition on my part) Dollar is dual registered as well. So how can you really care about preventing dual registration? Good research job ..... I was training for agility and I bought my Bree dog for Agility. I then discovered herding and that was the end of agility and obedience. Of course the breeder wants to push this dog because of her accomplishments .... she can sell more puppies. Do I plan on going back to AKC trialing ...NO .... Will I still help my friends who run other breeds in AKC herding ... YES ... I bought Dollar from a friend of mine that is an AKC person but runs USBCHA cattle. She is a good friend and a great teacher. Dollar was sold to me with USBCHA papers only. I always said I wouldn't breed but here I am with a litter on the ground. I am trying to do what's best for the pups and for the breed. My dogs are related to AKC lines and I'm trying to get away from that ... hence my question about blocking AKC registration. Ask me any question you want and I'll answer it.... The last tread went south which is why I had to stop it. Thanks for all your help, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Ok ... so the avenue of enforcement is what? Small claims? You show up in court with the contract in hand, and now you need to prove the person violated the contract. "Spot" is registered as "Spot" with the ABCA, but is registered as "Sir Fluffybutt PansyAss FancyPaws" with the AKC. The burden of proof is on the plaintiff. The defendant says that they didn't dual register the dog. How do you prove your case? Depends on the circumstances and the jurisdiction you're in. How did you find out the dog was AKC registered? If the owner put it on his website, or put AKC titles on his website, or told someone, those are admissible into evidence as "admissions against interest." If he won a title, it will be listed in the AKC Gazette, along with the dog's registration number, DoB, sire and dam. Even if he didn't win but just competed, you can probably find his dog (with registration number, DoB, sire and dam) on the show or trial program. If he takes the stand to testify that it's not true, he's risking a perjury conviction. In many jurisdictions, even in small claims court, there is at least limited provision for discovery. You may be able to serve a discovery subpoena on him requesting the production of pedigrees, all registration records on his dog, etc., or requiring him to appear before trial and answer questions under oath. Every case is different and dependent on its facts, but there's almost always a way. I can honestly say that it seems Dave is definitely playing a game here, he calls it "devil's advocate" others might call it "trolling". Before we all spend a lot of valuable dog training time on this subject, here's what five minutes on the internet told me about Dave and his "anti-AKC" sentiment. It will be obvious to anyone who reads the last few pages of the Borderlines thread that D Strickland/OUTRUNBC, for whatever reason, posts whatever amuses him without regard for the truth. I can't see any point in trying to ascertain what he REALLY thinks or does. What I'm posting is for the benefit of others who may be reading. In that vein, I see that he's just posted here that he's bought a dog from "an AKC person" who sold the dog to him "with USBCHA papers only." I assume the dog is AKC registered, but what's the point of trying to pin that down? He could say yes in one post and no in another -- in fact, he probably already has. It IS worth noting for the benefit of others, though, that there is no such thing as USBCHA papers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 There is really no surefire way to block AKC registration of pups except by not breeding dogs. If you had no plans to breed WHY do you have pups? Was it an oops litter? If ABCA registered will you put them on NB papers so any that go into AKC will not be eligible for pups being registered with ABCA? Oh and BTW was that trial w/Glyn Jones in the KC area ? I am willing to bet I know many of the buckle chasers you mention and many are AKC people too so their attitude doesn't surprise me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 ...but is registered as "Sir Fluffybutt PansyAss FancyPaws" with the AKC... LMAO! now I want to get a new dog and register him as Sir PansyAss... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Strickland Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 There is really no surefire way to block AKC registration of pups except by not breeding dogs. If you had no plans to breed WHY do you have pups? Was it an oops litter? If ABCA registered will you put them on NB papers so any that go into AKC will not be eligible for pups being registered with ABCA? Oh and BTW was that trial w/Glyn Jones in the KC area ? I am willing to bet I know many of the buckle chasers you mention and many are AKC people too so their attitude doesn't surprise me. Glyn Jones trial was at Thad Fleming's in Missouri. The buckle chasers are the USBCHA cattle folk out here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Every case is different and dependent on its facts, but there's almost always a way. It's too bad the ABCA won't just take the leap to ban dual registration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 IThe buckle chasers may say they are the cattledog people (and I know some are) but some are also AKC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Dave, what we have been doing is breeding for solid working ranch cattle dogs and selling the pups that we don't keep for ourselves only to buyers that have a practical use for the dog. If I have a cull pup/dog to place into a pet home it goes on a spay/neuter agreement and without papers, so far all verbal but each person I have sold to so far had the intentions of S/N'ering their pets and had no interest in breeding. If I cull a older dog out and it goes to a ranch I may just hold the papers and let them decide what they want to do on the s/n side. Sometimes the dog will go into a different working situation, be handled a different way and just bloosom. I am willing to give the buyers the papers upon them presenting me with proof of S/N or if the dog really proves itself. Anyway, based on our expirences, the purpose in which you breed can offer you more pitfalls as far as the AKC vs. ABCA registration dilemma of the buyers. Though a good stud dog will get you into a bit of a pickle too, I've yet to find my way through that maze other then to set my stud fee high to weed out some of the turn a dollar quick trial breeders and with a "pre-approved females" clause. Seems like most will not even ask once they know that their females have to meet our standards of work. Are you running cattle to, or only sheep? Will you be coming to the Arkansas trial on the 5th, Tom, Ruth and Dave were at the last one I came down to a few weeks back. I'm debating about whether or not I want to come over to Prairie Grove, I have to be down that way that weekend anyway provided the weather is good for travel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 The buckle chasers are the USBCHA cattle folk out here.... Dave, you should come on up to Cattle Dog Finals in May. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Not sure if this will make since but... I put Dave in the same catagory as the "big hats" that say they will stud their open dog out to a lesser maybe even ACK dog because the alternitive is what... If they don't let their stud dog breed this lesser bitch then the owner will go to a lesser dog and the breeding will be even less than the parents so they figure it's better to have studded their dogs out to at least do their part in trying to keep the working dog at top levels.... And yes I've heard this argument from some very big hats...But I like my butt as is so I'm not naming names. I call that poppycock and STM it's all about the dollar. When I first started I made some statements that would have put me on the fence about ack and our dogs. I still think that everyone has a right to do with their dogs as they see fit but after learning and partisipating in this breed of dog, I can not sit on the fence any more. Do I argue that with anyone? No but I sure do some preaching when given a chance. Dave, do as you will but don't tout your USBCHA horn or non ack horn till you have nothing more to do with them. It's hard to argue or debate someone wno swings both ways and is arguing for the fun of it or playing devils advocate as you say. OH yeah...Jodi I was going to name my next puppy MissPansyAss....you got a problem with that??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 It's hard to argue or debate someone wno swings both ways and is arguing for the fun of it or playing devils advocate as you say... Ah yes. The fence-sitters. There's a few of them on these here boards. They know who they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Strickland Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 IThe buckle chasers may say they are the cattledog people (and I know some are) but some are also AKC The ones I'm talking about are only USBCHA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Strickland Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Are you running cattle to, or only sheep? Will you be coming to the Arkansas trial on the 5th, Tom, Ruth and Dave were at the last one I came down to a few weeks back. I'm debating about whether or not I want to come over to Prairie Grove, I have to be down that way that weekend anyway provided the weather is good for travel. Hi Debbie, I only own, train, and trial on sheep. I've worked cattle a couple times but it's really not my thing. I might get some cattle after we move back to our bigger spread of land in the couple years - after the kids graduate and move on .... Focusing on sheep and goats .... demos on ducks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Strickland Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Not sure if this will make since but... I put Dave in the same catagory as the "big hats" that say they will stud their open dog out to a lesser maybe even ACK d Kristen, The only hat I wear is one of those beanies with a propeller on it !!!! Are you saying that I should sever all ties with anything AKC or anyone dealing with AKC ? Seems kinda harsh doesn't it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 The ones I'm talking about are only USBCHA. Ok, who, specifically? A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Strickland Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Ok, who, specifically? A ...LOL ... I may be crazy but not suicidal !!!! LOL I trial alongside these people - some are my friends ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Hey Dave, let them know that some of us up here in Iowa and Nebraska are talking about coming down that way more often. I was told that we need to quit beating up on each other and travel other places a bit Deb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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