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Moving past the bafflement (is that a word) for why it's "my" (the collective "my") responsibility to educate someone who decides to purchase a Border Collie and not do thorough research on the breed before doing so, what exactly is it that we're supposed to be educating them about again ... in a way they can understand? Trying to convince someone with a Sporter Collie to support the working side of the breed is like asking them to switch breeds altogether. What is the point, and why would it be beneficial for the working folks to go chase them down and speak their language?

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As the obedience world found out, agility is here to stay. USDAA, UKC, CPE, NADAC and now the UK import, UKI, all do not require a pedigree and therefor banning dual registration is not going to stem the rapid increase in interest in these venues. They are all still going to suck up working bred, sports bred, Barbie bred and sh!t bred (like mine I guess) border collies regardless of the registration organization. Banning dual registration will only help keep ABCA registered dogs out of the hands of the AKC which no longer is the only major player out there(and may in fact be losing it's grip at that).

 

That's not the point of banning dual registration though. And for whatever reason, ISTM that most sports breeders register with AKC/ABCA. Time and time again here people have said that they prefer AKC, or those are the only trials in their area, or whatever.

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Trying to convince someone with a Sporter Collie to support the working side of the breed is like asking them to switch breeds altogether. What is the point, and why would it be beneficial for the working folks to go chase them down and speak their language?

 

I don't know that there is a point, at least not right now when so many sports people are quite pleased with their sports bred dogs. So can the working Border Collie survive along with the other types of breeding? You obviously wouldn't want to breed to the non-working bred dogs. Do they interfere with how you choose which dogs to breed?

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So can the working Border Collie survive along with the other types of breeding?

 

I guess that's the million dollar question. It's sad to see the market absolutely saturated with dogs that are bred for the entirely wrong purpose with their owners coming to stockdog people, wanting to compete with their dogs, and the trainers having to gently break it to them that their dog will never amount to anything, and that if they'd like to compete, they need to get a well bred dog. You see it over and over and over.

 

But thankfully those dogs have great form when they're jumping over the irrigation ditch. :rolleyes:

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It goes to illustrate how diverse one's experiences are that form the varying opinions we all have. I actually live about 45 minutes from you and have a different take on things as concerns the working Border Collie. My friend has a sheep co-op about 30 mintues from you, on an old ranch which is now a city park. Folks can come down there and have her try their dogs on sheep and she gives lessons. In the past it has been to all herding type breeds, not sure if that it still is. I think, like many activities one has to seak them out as they are not always readily visible without it.

 

Hope to meet you at Sonoma trial I sure hope the weather holds for us. I will be the nervous one with a wonderful dog, as this will be only my third Open trial, with the one at Zamora next month being the second.

 

I do believe that one can have an "authentic" Border Collie, ( to address your "unauthentic" description without working any stock. But I also beleive the true Border Collie should stay the course and be bred for what it was developed for, working stock.

Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one... I feel that a Border Collie that doesn't have the ability to work stock is just not the real deal - regardless of what its papers, it's appearance and parentage say. Even if it speaks Gaelic! :P Although, I'm fine with it if the owner of the dog chooses not to work stock, but the breeder ought to, or they shouldn't be breeding.

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Sure, some have issues, but many suit their owners perfectly fine and even excel in the discipline of the owner's choice. Many may very well "taste" very little, if any, difference between their Border Collies and one that is working bred.

 

And obviously, there are top level handlers in Agility who are more than happy with them because these Border Collies are taking them to the world team.

 

Let me be clear - I am not saying that the non-working bred Border Collie is a perfect dog and is in some way "better" or something. What I am saying is that it is not the case that these Border Collie's owners are actually unhappy with them and somehow are unaware of it.

 

If one is going to somehow convince sport enthusiasts that their Border Collies are non-real, it would be necessary to demonstrate that to them in a concrete way that they can relate to. Stockwork is not something that most sport enthusiasts can relate to, even if their dog of choice is the Border Collie, which was, of course, bred to work stock. I have come to understand that is a difficult concept for some who are involved with stockwork to grasp, but that is, in fact, the case.

 

Yes exactly.

Where I do agility the top handlers have both working, sport and confirmation bred dogs. There are brilliant agility dogs and not so good agility dogs from all 3 types. Very few could care less about the sheep side of things in fact I would be bold enough to say it doesnt even cross their minds. They are only interested in top agility dogs. Some will seek out working bred dogs while others will seek out good sporting lines.

 

Farm bred dogs are easy enough to come by in the rural papers but you have no idea what you are getting wheras the well known sport breeders generally have dogs quite suitable and proven in agility taking out top competitions. The registered working dog breeders may or may not sell to agility homes and are not exactly many of them around and they may only have certain pups they will sell.

 

The recent trend here if you want a dog from working lines is to breed a working dog that has proven itself as a good agility dog. The top handlers will snap up pups from these matings and are done within the agility community and the pups seem to stay within the agility community. I am afraid sheep certainly dont come into the equation.

 

I have a sport bred dog - my first BC and I also more recently have a working bred BC but then I also have recently moved onto a farm and need a working dog. I guess I have also learnt a fair bit from these boards and now will actively seek out a well bred working BC, but I also have sheep.

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From a previous post:

"Make ability of dogs/parents on stock the single most important requirement for registration, to prevent this from happening again, and let the conformation, sport and "versatility" dogs evolve as they like."

 

I like this idea - if we could ever come up with a way to implement it. I know it has come up before, with all the issues of how do you test for it, and is that too much like a title, and what about the dogs working the farm who don't trial and couldn't afford to travel to a test (or not enough manpower and money to send someone to the farm dogs). Otherwise it would be a great idea - a registry that actually means a dog can work - get one from that registry and you know exactly what you have. None of the current registries can say that - it's all one big mishmash, even if some are weighted more one way than the other.

 

 

We would still have a lot of dogs running aroung that everyone thought of as border collies that were really, as you say, goldens in a tuxedo. Splitting registries, either a new working registry or banning dual registration, won't change the fact that border collies are immensely popular and people are going to continue to breed them for sports and that's what the general public is going to see. I really don't know what you do about that. John Q Public isn't going to ask how the dog is registered and then when told it's an AKC dog think "Oh, it's one of those fake border collies". They're all the same to him.

 

 

One thing I thought with regard to the name change. The border collie might be better off to keep the same name on both sides even if the split develops. Think back to when the 'lassie' collie was once a border collie. What if we had continued to call them all 'collie's? Then when AKC took over 'their' version of the collie, they would eventually have looked at the working version and just said, "well those are just more collies, and pretty ugly ones at that, what do we want with them" and left them alone. Anyone could have ILP'd and neutered a working version collie into AKC for sports if they wanted, but they never would have been in the miscellaneous class and eventually forced to become an AKC breed, and they eventually became so different in every aspect that no one on earth would confuse the two. Keeping the same name may be a bit of a protection, since you can't take over what you already think you have.

 

 

IMO, regardless of the name, we need to prevent dual registration. That should be the first step. The working ability test is so subjective & difficult to prove- if we start out with something so convoluted we won't get anywhere. We could eventually work towards something like that but for now we should focus our efforts on banning dual full registration (not ILP/PAL).

 

It is becoming more & more apparent as this thread continues that education will not work. Even longtime members of these boards (Border Collie lovers?) will not concede that the work is what makes a Border Collie. If they can't understand, how will we ever convince the pet store, BYB trolling JQP?

 

Unfortunately, I have to agree on some level with RDM. I work with the pet owning public on a daily basis & I see plenty of the pet store puppies and the people who should know better but end up buying them anyway. IMO,working dog breeders shouldn't have to educate folks who don't care enough to do a simple internet search to try and educate themselves.

 

Perhaps we should take the cue from the JRTCA. The USBCC could set up a liaison system (by state?) so that when people are looking for dogs they may find the USBCC site in their search (we can add tags to the site so that when Breeder is used the site will come up in the first one or 2. Puppy buyers might then contact the liaison for their state & be brought into the working dog world. Have help finding a good breeder....Perhaps go to some herding trials in their state. Try to catch the newbies before they get sucked into the Barbies or Sporters...I feel like we need to do something...my first step will be to actually join the USBCC :lol: I am awaiting checks to be delivered from my new credit union account(I ditched the big multinational bank!) & I will send in the paperwork as soon as they arrive.

 

We need to lobby ABCA membership so that we can get the dual registrations banned at the next meeting (in Sept??). I've read that I will not have a vote in ABCA this year since I am not currently a member so is there a reason for me to join now? With $ being what it is today I'd prefer to wait until next December to spend the $ in time to ensure that I can vote next year. Has anyone considered hosting an online meeting with GoToMeeting or something similar? That way the the Finals won't be the only meeting (since it sounds like people don't really want to attend then, and many will not travel across the country if they are not running).

 

What else can I do? Anybody else have ideas/suggestions? How do we get the ball rolling?

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John Q Public isn't going to ask how the dog is registered and then when told it's an AKC dog think "Oh, it's one of those fake border collies". They're all the same to him.

 

Though most, if not all of the general population know that border collies=work sheep. If a new registry were to open up and all the real working dogs were going there to be registered and it was refusing all the AKC and sport breds he will wonder why his potential new pup, that's suppose to be able to work sheep [because hey! it's a black and white, it should be able], can't be registered. People do want the authentic thing, be it for greedyness or material value.

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Though most, if not all of the general population know that border collies=work sheep. If a new registry were to open up and all the real working dogs were going there to be registered and it was refusing all the AKC and sport breds he will wonder why his potential new pup, that's suppose to be able to work sheep [because hey! it's a black and white, it should be able], can't be registered. People do want the authentic thing, be it for greedyness or material value.

 

There is no registration requirement for dogs running in USBCHA Open trials...any breed can run, any registration, no registration & even mixed breeds. So the Sporters & Barbies are welcome to come & compete if they want to, they would not be excluded.

 

The only reason I can think of to want ABCA registration is to breed registered dogs. Can anyone correct my thinking on that?

 

A Ban on Dual Reg. will prevent Barbies & Sporters from registering with ABCA- that's it. But i think that may be enough to start to highlight the differences well enough that perhaps some of the sporters will realize that they need the real Working Border Collie to keep their lines going. ETA: Or they won't & really who cares? It is about preserving the working dogs. If breeding for Flyball etc... becomes a problem then we can move towards a working standard. But first the ban must happen

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Though most, if not all of the general population know that border collies=work sheep. If a new registry were to open up and all the real working dogs were going there to be registered and it was refusing all the AKC and sport breds he will wonder why his potential new pup, that's suppose to be able to work sheep [because hey! it's a black and white, it should be able], can't be registered. People do want the authentic thing, be it for greedyness or material value.

 

I think they think that in the same way as owners of shelties or collies think they work sheep - as sort of a historic novelty, but not something to be concerned about these days. And most people will just take whatever papers the breeder gives them, if they bought the dog as a pet or an agility dog they won't be looking to get into a working registry so they'll never be told their dog doesn't cut it for that. They'll go get an instinct test certificate or an AKC herding title and think they have a working dog.

 

There will be agility dogs regardless - and they will be getting bred, whether they have AKC numbers only or ABCA/AKC or even only ABCA, I think there is very little at this point any registry or individual person can do about that. The demand is there and someone will fill it and people will buy what meets their needs. If there are 5000 agility/flyball,disc dogs this year and 20,000 agility/flyball/disc dog/'new sport of the month' dogs in a couple of years, does it really matter how they're registered? They're still making the image the public sees and still taking up puppy sales that could have gone to working homes and still flooding the market with dogs who can't work but who's owners probably think they can if they can go out and chase a few sheep around in a small pen. And as long as there is open registration, there's nothing to stop someone from buying a couple ABCA dogs and breeding them, then dual registering the puppies (who would then be deregistered) but then go back and breed the parents again, and keep pumping working dog blood into AKC. Or just register the parents, keep all the puppies AKC, and still infuse new ABCA blood every so often by simply buying a new dog and registering with AKC. There is also nothing to stop people from bringing in an ISDS registered dog and registering it AKC. A ban on dual registration doesn't keep working dogs out of AKC or keep them from being bred for other than stock work. And what is left in ABCA after all the AKC dogs are kicked out (which is probably 5% or less of total registered ABCA dogs) still isn't guaranteed to work well or to have been bred for work or to not have been bred for sports (flyball, disc dog, USDAA agility, UKI agility, etc do not require AKC registration so can be bred for within ABCA). I'm not saying I'm opposed to the idea of a ban, just realistically I'm not sure I see it changing things all that much as far as the actual dogs are concerned. I don't even think it will force most people to pick a side - they'll just figure out ways around the system to still get what they want and breed how they want to get the dogs they want.

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Moving past the bafflement (is that a word) for why it's "my" (the collective "my") responsibility to educate someone who decides to purchase a Border Collie and not do thorough research on the breed before doing so, what exactly is it that we're supposed to be educating them about again ... in a way they can understand? Trying to convince someone with a Sporter Collie to support the working side of the breed is like asking them to switch breeds altogether. What is the point, and why would it be beneficial for the working folks to go chase them down and speak their language?

 

EXACTLY! B)

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Though most, if not all of the general population know that border collies=work sheep. If a new registry were to open up and all the real working dogs were going there to be registered and it was refusing all the AKC and sport breds he will wonder why his potential new pup, that's suppose to be able to work sheep [because hey! it's a black and white, it should be able], can't be registered. People do want the authentic thing, be it for greedyness or material value.

 

I seriously doubt that many sports enthusiasts would care that their Border Collies are not eligible to be registered with a working registry.

 

Stockwork is not something that most sport enthusiasts have any inclination, interest, or desire to participate in. Yes, some do, but most don't. If they did, that is what they would be doing. I know that might seem like a radical idea to one who is involved with stockwork, but that actually is the case.

 

Having to have a specially registered Border Collie to do stockwork with would not make most people feel like their Border Collies are any less authentic. That would be like saying that a neutered Border Collie from rescue is less authentic because he or she cannot be registered to do conformation in the AKC. It would be seen as a special registry, not as some kind of stamp of authentication that would render all Border Collies without that registry as less authentic.

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I seriously doubt that many sports enthusiasts would care that their Border Collies are not eligible to be registered with a working registry.

 

Someone recently mentioned that if the ABCA would only do a one-generation pedigree, the AKC would not accept it. I doubt something like that would pass with the membership or the board because of the lost revenue that those dogs bring, but it sure would force the issue, I think.

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Someone recently mentioned that if the ABCA would only do a one-generation pedigree, the AKC would not accept it. I doubt something like that would pass with the membership or the board because of the lost revenue that those dogs bring, but it sure would force the issue, I think.

 

You can still ILP/PAL without a pedigree, though. And if you really want to do AKC and you can't ILP/PAL, you can compete with any dog as a mix now.

 

It would force the issue somewhat, but there is quite a large Agility world outside the AKC now. Flyball is not AKC. Freestyle is not AKC. Rally in it's original and most authentic form is not AKC. Frisbee is not AKC.

 

Such a rule would have an impact, but it would not separate the ABCA from the dog sport world. In fact, the ABCA Border Collie could easily become the more desirable sport dog and that could open a market for sport breeders within the ABCA on it's own.

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Me personally ... I don't care if someone PAL's a dog. The dog is speutered so it is not contributing to the studbooks. The AKC is a monopoly that won't be going away any time soon, and as long as it exists, there will be people who feel they can't compete without it. Silly, but whatever.

 

I seriously doubt that many sports enthusiasts would care that their Border Collies are not eligible to be registered with a working registry.

 

In fact, the ABCA Border Collie could easily become the more desirable sport dog and that could open a market for sport breeders within the ABCA on it's own.

 

:blink:

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I seriously doubt that many sports enthusiasts would care that their Border Collies are not eligible to be registered with a working registry.

 

Okay, and?....... It seems like you can't understand that no one is trying to exclude them in order to punish them or make them "see the light". We are trying to preserve the working dog by minimizing the crossing between the 2.

 

Stockwork is not something that most sport enthusiasts have any inclination, interest, or desire to participate in. Yes, some do, but most don't. If they did, that is what they would be doing. I know that might seem like a radical idea to one who is involved with stockwork, but that actually is the case.

 

Not sure why you keep saying stuff like this??? I don't believe working dog people are trying to insist ALL Border Collies work stock. It is about who is BREEDING the dogs & the criteria they use to select the parents.

 

Having to have a specially registered Border Collie to do stockwork with would not make most people feel like their Border Collies are any less authentic. That would be like saying that a neutered Border Collie from rescue is less authentic because he or she cannot be registered to do conformation in the AKC. It would be seen as a special registry, not as some kind of stamp of authentication that would render all Border Collies without that registry as less authentic.

 

Did you read prior posts? Posts like THIS ONE. I will repeat it here... there is no special registry, no registry at all, required to do USBCHA stock work. The only reason the registry is important is when you want to breed or sell dogs. Something I believe should be done by the working breeders.

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So I clicked on the FB "structure evaluation" link, and the dog that popped up for consideration was a female whose parents were Rio Run somebody X Red Top Somebody, which would be an Evie Kimberly breeding X a Pat Shannahan breeding. Both working bred dogs. Interesting...,

A

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Okay, and?....... It seems like you can't understand that no one is trying to exclude them in order to punish them or make them "see the light". We are trying to preserve the working dog by minimizing the crossing between the 2.

 

And so, such a registry would probably not affect the crossing between the two. It would likely continue.

 

Not sure why you keep saying stuff like this??? I don't believe working dog people are trying to insist ALL Border Collies work stock. It is about who is BREEDING the dogs & the criteria they use to select the parents.

 

Because part of this discussion has been about why people choose sport Border Collie breeders over working Border Collie breeders. Those who are purchasing dogs and their motivation for doing so has a great deal of bearing on BREEDING.

 

Did you read prior posts? Posts like THIS ONE. I will repeat it here... there is no special registry, no registry at all, required to do USBCHA stock work. The only reason the registry is important is when you want to breed or sell dogs. Something I believe should be done by the working breeders.

 

No, there is not. However, I was responding directly to Chantal where she suggested that a separate working registry might deter sport enthusiasts from purchasing from non-working breeders. Did you read that? I actually quoted her in my response that you quoted above. Go back and read what Chantal said (post #233) and my comment should make more sense to you.

 

ETA: Contrary to what you might think, I also hold that Border Collies should be bred by working breeders. At the same time, I do completely understand why many of my fellow sport enthusiasts, and regular pet Border Collie owners, purchase from sport Border Collie breeders, or from farms where the Border Collies are not "proven" in trials, or from back yard breeders, or from conformation breeders, or adopt Border Collies of unknown origin (or which are known to be from a sport breeder, back yard breeder, farm, working breeder, or conformation breeder) from rescue. Even though I would not purchase from such breeders (although I would adopt such a Border Collie from rescue), I completely get why many people do - even those who are long time posters here.

 

If it is of interest to you to seek to encourage/educate/influence prospective Border Collie owners to purchase Border Collies from working breeders, it can be, I believe, extremely helpful to know what would motivate them to purchase from another kind of breeder even though you view those Border Collies as "non-real". If that is not of interest to you personally, then understanding the myriad of reasons why people purchase non-working bred Border Collies may well be of no use to you and I can see why you would not get why others care to discuss it in this context.

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I seriously doubt that many sports enthusiasts would care that their Border Collies are not eligible to be registered with a working registry.

 

In fact, the ABCA Border Collie could easily become the more desirable sport dog and that could open a market for sport breeders within the ABCA on it's own.

 

Kristine, I am re-quoting these because I was waiting for you to clarify this for me. These two quotes seem to directly contradict eachother.

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Kristine, I am re-quoting these because I was waiting for you to clarify this for me. These two quotes seem to directly contradict eachother.

 

No problem.

 

The first quote was a response to Chantal's suggestion that a registry be formed for working Border Collies only. I'd have to go back and read what she wrote, but I got the impression that this would be separate from the ABCA. So, only dogs that actually work (ABCA registered or not) would be part of the registry that Chantal was suggesting, but there would still be quite a large population of ABCA Border Collies that would not qualify to be part of this working registry. This would not officially cut dogs off from dual registration, so I tend to think that it would not lead to the general populace seeing ABCA registered dogs and AKC registered dogs (or dual registered) as any different from one another. I would not expect that sport enthusiasts or pet Border Collie buyers would be inclined to seek out a dog from what is viewed as a specialized working registry for dogs that are intended to be used for work only.

 

The second was a response to your suggestion of the ABCA only doing a one generation pedigree. So, there is no second working registry in addition to the ABCA in this scenario, but the ability to dual register is cut off and AKC registered dogs and ABCA registered dogs would, in effect, split. Over time, the general populace would come to see a difference between the types of dogs, and I would be inclined to think that a contingency of sport enthusiasts would eventually become attracted to the ABCA Border Collies and start to see them out as sport partners, in spite of the fact that they could not be registered with AKC.

 

Does that make sense?

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One generation peds would in essence force the split. It would stop those within ACK from using the ABCA papers for advertising "working" bred pups, they'd not have any. It would stop the influx from ABCA to ACK as well. Since pups are registered from the breeder I am not sure how much revenue would be lost. Sport buyers would have to go elsewhere (which they already do for the most part) but it would cause a clear and distinct split. It would only effect ACK, not USDAA sports as they are not paper driven.

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One generation peds would in essence force the split. It would stop those within ACK from using the ABCA papers for advertising "working" bred pups, they'd not have any.

 

I'm not so sure about that. The definition of "working" can and does vary. What is to stop breeders from still saying they have working dogs and working bred pups because their dogs do sports and AKC herding?

 

It would stop the influx from ABCA to ACK as well.

 

Now that I can see. I don't know the politics of ABCA. Is going to one generation pedigress do-able?

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One generation peds would in essence force the split. It would stop those within ACK from using the ABCA papers for advertising "working" bred pups, they'd not have any. It would stop the influx from ABCA to ACK as well. Since pups are registered from the breeder I am not sure how much revenue would be lost. Sport buyers would have to go elsewhere (which they already do for the most part) but it would cause a clear and distinct split. It would only effect ACK, not USDAA sports as they are not paper driven.

 

Does this mean, though, that no one buying an ABCA registered dog would have access to its pedigree information? What about the perfectly legitimate farmer/trialer, etc who may want to breed and needs the pedigree information to make good breeding choices? If it doesn't come with papers, there would need to be some way of requesting it later for those who need it for legitimate reasons. But if people start going to ABCA requesting pedigrees after the fact, who in ABCA is going to determine who to refuse pedigrees to? They really wouldn't have any way of verifying what the person wants it for.

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