Joan Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 I need help with my hearing-impaired bitch, Dhu. She's well-trained by a top handler, just needs a better shed to run in Open. I'm running in her Ranch. We typically get a good OLF score. Last weekend, it was 20-10-15. We usually do well on the first leg of the drive, and then it falls apart on the cross-drive. There are times that we don't get that far. Dhu, a Bomber daughter, often likes to do things her way. But now that I know she has hearing problems, it's difficult to tell if she's blowing me off and/or being a hard-head, or if she can't hear well enough to know what I'm asking of her. She's also a little sticky. My training buddy has helped a LOT, and I hope she'll join the discussion. Please, let there be a discussion - I need help! I'd like to know what you think before I tell you much about what I've been doing with her. I will describe a typical Dhu-moment: I ask her to flank. She stands there and does nothing, appearing to be in a trance. Then, suddenly, after 3-5 seconds, she'll flank. It might be the flank I asked for, it might not. I think she hears me give her a command, but she doesn't know exactly what I said. So she appears to "study" the situation, and then she does something, based on what she sees. How do you handle a hearing-impaired dog??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miztiki Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 You'll probably laugh, but could you strap a walkie-talkie to her? Do you know what range of sounds are easier for her to hear; higher pitched or lower pitched? If you knew that, then you could adjust your whistles accordingly, or use totally different commands, like clapping, banging on something, a bell, etc. I know these sound dumb, but where there's a will, there's a way... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer Glen Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 I think that is right. Typically in people, they hear lower tones better, but I thought you told me she heard higher tones. Maybe you could experiment with different makes of whitles. Some of the ones Beverly has are really supposed to be blasters. When Scott is out there, see if she hears the finger whistles. You just might have to learn to whistle with your fingers... Jenny Glen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan Posted July 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Miztiki, Creativity is welcome. Actually, I think attaching some kind of radio to her collar is a good idea. However, I'm reluctant to do things in training that I can't do at a trial. Do you think the radio training could transition to trials? Ditto on the unusual commands. I have been using my stick more, and I try to be consistent with my "stick commands." I raise it vertically in front of me to emphasize a lie down or steady. I raise it to my side to emphasize flank commands. And I point at her for even more emphasis - sort of a correction. I've experimented with whistles. I have a large Arnold whistle and a small one, an A whistle like Francis sells, and a brass whistle like Bev sells. I'm much more consistent with the A whistle, which is also higher tones, but Dhu seems to prefer the loudness of the brass whistle, which blows lower tones than the A whistle. The vet who did the BAER test said Dhu should hear higher tones better. She does prefer higher voice tones, but she prefers the brass whistle of the ones that I have. I'll also add that I think Dhu has lost some confidence. I welcome more of your input! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan Posted July 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Originally posted by Jennifer Glen:I think that is right. Typically in people, they hear lower tones better, but I thought you told me she heard higher tones. Maybe you could experiment with different makes of whitles. Some of the ones Beverly has are really supposed to be blasters. When Scott is out there, see if she hears the finger whistles. You just might have to learn to whistle with your fingers... Jenny Glen Hi, Jenny! Dhu seemed to prefer the higher tones until I got the brass whistle. I forgot that I didn't have the brass whistle when I first started trying different whistles. When we worked with Scott in May, she heard his whistles when she was closer but not far away. Of course, the wind was blowing and the grass was rustling that day. Robin is threatening to teach me to finger whistle. I think I'll have to try it! I sure wish Scott was closer. I'd really love some lessons right now! And he knows Dhu better than anyone else does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miztiki Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Originally posted by Joan:However, I'm reluctant to do things in training that I can't do at a trial. Do you think the radio training could transition to trials? Ditto on the unusual commands. I've never even been to a trial, and pet my first sheep just recently, so I don't know. Is there anything in the rules stating in what manner the commands must be given? If not, then I see no reason why you couldn't communicate with her in a non-conventional way, considering her hearing loss. I'd ask those who are more familiar with trials though. At the very least you would know where her true weaknesses are in regards to herding as opposed to not hearing your commands. (I have some hearing loss and have trouble with lower tones too.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Dave Fedderman's experimenting with an electrical (not shock) collar for Leah (Bomber too). Find out what he's been doing. Beryl can't hear when I'm behind her (Big Ol' ears!). I know the pause well...it's like she's aware, but can't process what she heard. She's also kind of a Smart one, knows what she wants to do, but I suspect she gets upset with the prospect of being wrong and being corrected. Not much help in the way of training for you, kind of out of my league, but check with Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan Posted July 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Originally posted by Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke:Dave Fedderman's experimenting with an electrical (not shock) collar for Leah (Bomber too). Find out what he's been doing. Beryl can't hear when I'm behind her (Big Ol' ears!). I know the pause well...it's like she's aware, but can't process what she heard. She's also kind of a Smart one, knows what she wants to do, but I suspect she gets upset with the prospect of being wrong and being corrected. Not much help in the way of training for you, kind of out of my league, but check with Dave. Hi, Debbie. Thanks for posting. Dave and I have corresponded, but he hasn't written back since he started using the collar. I'm reluctant to use something in training that I can't use at trials. Anyone have thoughts on using a training aid at home that I can't use at trials? Beryl sounds a lot like Dhu! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan Posted July 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Hi, Miztiki. There is definitely a rule against training aids on the field. I'm not aware of any rule about how commands should be given, but non-conventional communication would probably be frowned upon. I'm not likely to be given any special permissions because of her hearing loss, and I don't expect any. It's a perplexing situation! :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miztiki Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 It's not fair is it? I hope someone is able to help you think of something. In the event that her hearing gets worse in the future, you could always keep my silly ideas in mind so that you two are still able to work sheep together. Besides, confidence is more important than a dumb old audience anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 Joan - Don't know if you've tried one, but what about a plastic "field trialer's" whistle - the kind used for gun dogs? I used to do retriever trials, and those have a totally different sound to them than the shepherd's whistles. The sound carries nearly as far, and can be "shrill" or "low pitched" depending on how you blow it. It's more "warbly" than "piercing", if that makes sense... My old Golden was nearly deaf at 13 - he couldn't hear me calling him VERBALLY, but if I blew his "recall" whistle, he would come right to me. Might be worth a try - they're pretty inexpensive, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan Posted July 13, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 Originally posted by laurie etc:Joan - Don't know if you've tried one, but what about a plastic "field trialer's" whistle - the kind used for gun dogs? Hey, Laurie. Please forgive me this question. Are you familiar with the whistles used for herding commands? Your post seems to indicate that you are. Can you produce those kinds of multi-pitch whistles on a field trialer's whistle? If so, I'll give it a try! I'm going to find one of these whistles on the Web so I can look at it. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 PErhaps you change her commands to totally different ones on the field-type whistle. There's a fairly wide range possible on those by using combinations of short and long blasts (I saw a video of Queen Elizabeth directing her retrievers on a two mile long fetch to a downed bird). You can't get the finesse but you might bring back some of her confidence. I've changed almost all of Don's verbal commands to mouth-noise-clicky deals (for short range), so if I can change commands, anyone can for sure. Is it possible to carry two whistles on the trial field? Then if there's something like a flank change or moving her off the pressure, you can have something she is very confident with. And you could fine tuen with the shepherd's whistle commands when she's more confident what is probably coming next (adjusting a line on the fetch). It's got to be frustrating. Greg was also severely arthritic by the time he was stone deaf (at 15), so those "screw you" moments always happened when he was close enough to give him physical cues. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 Originally posted by Joan: Are you familiar with the whistles used for herding commands? Your post seems to indicate that you are. Can you produce those kinds of multi-pitch whistles on a field trialer's whistle? I'm familiar with the sounds but inept at making them myself with my shepherd's whistle! I think I could easily make similar sounds with my old field trial whistle- and I had one of the little plain black plastic ones - there are many varieties that the "Big Hats" in field trialing (or actual hunters) use - big "blasters" as well as little ones. Check the Cabella's catalog or a "field and stream" magazine - there are probably reviews online too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 Has anyone ever used one of those silent whistles? I'm wondering if dhu might hear that so we could use it for a recall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan Posted July 13, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 And does anyone in the Raleigh/Durham (NC) area know where to buy field trail whistles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna frankland (uk) Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 could you perhaps add in 'rhythm' to her commands? like a sort of echo? a dog i knew started to lose his hearing, (my sisters dog) and she found that by adding an echo to her commands, he could then differentiate between them. i'm thinking along the lines of..... come bye bye bye bye, away way way way, that'll do do do do, it might sound crazy, and may not work depending on the amount of hearing loss, but it seemed to do the trick for benny. admittedly he was an elderly lab, not a working bc, but hey you never know! love donna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan Posted July 13, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 Originally posted by donna frankland (uk):could you perhaps add in 'rhythm' to her commands? like a sort of echo? I don't know, Donna, but it's easy enough to try it! I'll let you know. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 Bill Boatman has the best prices and widest selection. His catalog is online at http://billboatmancoinc.com/ You have to scroll down past his dog info and click on the picture of the catalog waaaaay at the bottom. Whistles, plus the double lanyard for two whistles, are on page 24 (it's a PDF). I really hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 Is there an concern with the Bomber lines in regards to the hearing loss... I am curious since I have a Dhu son.... Diane~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Any hunting catalog will sell field retriever whistles. Cabelas, Care-a-Lot has a big hunting selection (I have contemplated, for giggles, getting the big fake dead ducks for my dogs to play with), LL Bean even has them. I have never handled one, but they look like regular whistles to me (the kind with the little pea inside), just really big and really loud. I don't think you can play tones on them, but I don't really know. You could change the commands to things like "one short two long" or something like that. Someone you might want to talk to is Ilse Sternberg. She has used a remote walkie-talkie type collar or a tone collar in trials because she cannot whistle or talk above a whisper herself. Since she is in a wheelchair, she also sometimes has assistance with the pen door. However, this was in novice classes. I am certainly not experienced enough to comment intelligently, but it might be worth noting that Solo is from the same lines as the Bomber dogs (he goes back to Brady's Jim three times if I've got my extended pedigree calculated correctly) and he is VERY hard-headed on sheep. Gene called Solo a "throwback" due to his my-way-or-the-highway attitude and absolute resilience to corrections while working. Solo doesn't have any hearing problems as far as I can tell (he has never been tested, but there has never been any reason to think he needs to be tested), and he is six years old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tumblehome Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Originally posted by Rebecca, Brook Cove Farm: PErhaps you change her commands to totally different ones on the field-type whistle. There's a fairly wide range possible on those by using combinations of short and long blasts (I saw a video of Queen Elizabeth directing her retrievers on a two mile long fetch to a downed bird). You can't get the finesse but you might bring back some of her confidence. ********** I work my retrievers with two different whistles--one with a pea for the sort of handling QE2 demonstrated, and a smaller "spaniel" whistle for quartering. The spaniel whistle is really good for loopy, sliding sounds...I use a falling sound (I call it my dying quail whistle) to turn my dogs. I think it's much more versatile than the traditional retriever type whistle (although it's not appreciated in competition). You can get a lot more scale variation out of it...as well as short staccato toots and bleats. These are available I believe at www.dobbsdogs.com or maybe www.dogsafield.com Chris Ostrowski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan Posted July 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 I realize I can get a whistle from a catalog, and I've looked at them online, but was hoping to get one locally. I have a couple of leads. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan Posted July 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Thanks, Chris, I'll check that out! I guess there aren't many of us running hearing-impaired dogs in sheepdog trials. Most handlers would just get another dog or run one of their other dogs, I guess, but I don't have that option right now. And I really want to work Dhu. Thanks, everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyTerry Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 I don't have any hearing impaired dogs (Tux just has selective hearing in his old age) but I cannot blow a consistant tone on a whistle. I can duplicate a sound if I hear it but cannot duplicate it if no one blows it first. I've been told that I am not tone deaf but pitch deaf. Does anyone know if the field whistles would be easier for me to make my whistles a little consistant? Sorry to but in on your thread Joan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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