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I'll take your question as a rhetorical one. I couldn't watch past about a minute and 45 sec. What I saw was a dog biting the nose, with another biting the heel. Where can the poor calf go? Lots of hanging on, and lots of continued chewing, not giving the calves anywhere to go. Nuff said.

 

Where *do* you find this stuff? :blink:

A

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I'll take your question as a rhetorical one. I couldn't watch past about a minute and 45 sec. What I saw was a dog biting the nose, with another biting the heel. Where can the poor calf go? Lots of hanging on, and lots of continued chewing, not giving the calves anywhere to go. Nuff said.

 

Where *do* you find this stuff? :blink:

A

 

"Heck" with giving the cattle anywhere to go ... those poor dogs had NO where to go. You would think after the one was shoved up against the panel (and the panels aren't high enough for him to crawl out) the guy would have gotten the hint. What is it "Cage fighting" to the death?

 

Shame :@(

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That's pretty sad. Looks like a good way to maul your cattle (which look pretty poor) and hurt/maim/kill your dog(s). Just my opinion, but if it's too rough for a person to be in that pen instead of on the outside egging the dogs on, then maybe it's just too rough.

 

Rather than rank, those cattle looked ignorant and pushed to fighting back.

 

I think there are too many people who view working cattle with dogs to be nothing more than a knock-down, drag-out fight to see who manages to be the last one standing, so to speak. Too much cowboying and not enough stockmanship.

 

I'd have to say that if this is what it took to manage our cattle with dogs, we wouldn't have dogs. If we couldn't manage cattle otherwise, we wouldn't have cattle.

 

I've met this family - very interesting people.

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Sadly, Anna, unke most of the stuff I post (hee hee), it was not actually rhetorical. I know nothing about training dogs to work cows, or training cows for dogs to work since they scare me half to death. (Yes, I am a big weenie.) I had a really hard time watching this, felt sorry for the cows, was afraid for the dogs, and was thinking that I was not really appreciating the difficulty of cowdog work if this is what it entailed. The cows I've seen dogs work are in trials and are already dog broke. I always thought you broke cows similarly to how you broke sheep -- which looks nothing like that. Unfortunately, there is probably a sector of the population that looks at this video and says, "Yeah buddy! Look at 'em go! I need me a dawg like that 'un."

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This is one of those days that I am glad I have dial up and can't/won't access videos, especially long ones.

 

Tony McCallum showed us some video a few weeks back at the clinic, it was quiet and easy. I think some of his stuff is available on Y-Tube, don't watch stuff posted by people that claim that they are running his dogs, only stuff that he directly posts.

 

Deb

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Unfortunately this is the true way most ranchers go about working cows to become more docile and excepting of dogs... Lucky for my in laws they have a fairly dog friendly herd. With a few exceptions of course. I don't think that sticking cows in an enclosure with dogs like in the video is acceptable. It isn't fair to either cow nor dog. Although there does have to be a level of respect between both animals. I do agree that the dogs need to lay off of a cow once she turns away though. Boo hiss to stupid people and people who put their animals, both cow and dog alike, in dangerous situations. :angry:

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We recently dog broke some calves and a cow or two. I used Gunny. She never nipped, not one time, she didn't have to. After a few days of quiet short sessions the calves are willing to be moved wherever.

(It was interesting to see Gunny pace herself.)

 

But I wouldn't put a young dog on them right now.

 

I guess I always stop and think about the difference between a 300 pound calf and a full grown steer or mama cow.

 

I want them to trust my dogs will be fair.

 

Because their cooperation is important to me.

 

They are helping me.

 

And I want my fences, the cattle, my dogs, and myself to stay in good shape.

 

I also spent some time teaching them that loading in the stock trailer is a good thing, and not to be feared.

 

I couldn't watch the video.

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Here's the blurb underneath the video in case you haven't read it.

 

Border collies breaking rank cattle. This farm runs about 100 moma cows, separated in groups of 20-30 like the one being dog-broke here. After 2 secessions, the dogs gathered this herd from the field with their calves. This pen breaking process is not pretty, and is dangerous; but it's fast and efficient if you have dogs that can take it and dish it out. The man that owns these cattle can now gathers this herd of cows and calves with the one Border collie he purchased from us. It is satisfying to help folks get started using Border Collies and see them reap the joys of doing so.

 

There are plenty of videos with well-dogged cattle or feeders showing them moving with little or no resistance. So I hope this clip serves to demonstrate some lines of Border Collies will stand up to aggressive stock, and win before it's over. Over the years, we have dog-broke many different breeds of cattle including one small mob of bison. In every case our Border collies have ended up bossing the herd.

 

I have worked with numerous breeds of stock dogs. They all have their good points because they were made by God, and what He makes is good. But in my opinion the full blooded border collie is the most versatile, intelligent, capable and biddable; and when bred right is as tough, gritty and hard biting as any breed. I feel they are the choice dog for almost any livestock operation. It may be wise for you, and best for the BC breed to stick with ABCA registered Border collies, the true American registry for the working Border Collie. Many believe that the AKC with its historic focus on confirmation; results in increased genetic disorders, degraded working ability and loss of intelligence.

 

We sell pups, started and trained dogs from our lines registered with the American Border Collie Association. We also give lessons, as well as train outside dogs for the public. Thanks for visiting our dog clip. If you get bored some day, try out our family music clip on youtube under JCK Family. THANKS for stopping by !

 

And this one was just posted under the video from the Knight Family:

 

NOTE from the KNIGHT FAMILY. Please realize we do not like to see our dogs go through this abuse from cattle, but it is a necessary evil so the young dogs that will be working these herds do NOT have to. That being said, these dogs love this and it takes a good handle on a dog to get him/her to come out of the pen. Our dogs willingness, actually eagerness, to continue to work this type of stock, is the only thing I know about Border collies that is not too smart. jck

 

HERE is one of his websites.

 

Looks like someone is advertising the video on their BLOG?

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Unfortunately this is the true way most ranchers go about working cows to become more docile and excepting of dogs... Lucky for my in laws they have a fairly dog friendly herd. With a few exceptions of course. I don't think that sticking cows in an enclosure with dogs like in the video is acceptable. It isn't fair to either cow nor dog. Although there does have to be a level of respect between both animals. I do agree that the dogs need to lay off of a cow once she turns away though. Boo hiss to stupid people and people who put their animals, both cow and dog alike, in dangerous situations. :angry:

 

 

I know alot of ranchers and have NEVER meet one who does anything like that. Most ranchers I know have docile Momma cows and the young ones just get that way as well right along side the mommas

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>>>>>...Unfortunately this is the true way most ranchers go about working cows to become more docile and excepting of dogs..<<<<

 

Not in my neck of the wood. I went to the Coldsteam ranch, the second largest cattle ranch (I think) in Canada. Spent some time there with Chris and the cowdogs...all moving quietly and peacefully. The words that comes to mind are "AMBLING ALONG". I've been to cattle ranches in WA and OR, again, all smooth and calm work.

 

That's a broad brush you are using for ranchers......

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What I see in the first posted video makes no sense to me. The dogs in my inexperienced eye, have their tails up and are acting like its a game. One of them keeps rolling even when the cow isn't near him. How are the cattle learning to move off the dog if all the dog is doing is rolling under them and biting then backing off?

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  • 1 month later...

The first video must have been removed, since I couldn't view it. I'd say that spring time/mother cows with small calves is a tough time to work cattle with dogs. The cows with new born calves will be easily on a fight, when they see a dog. Especially, if you winter them out on the range, when they don't see humans/dogs around for months...all they see are for example the coyotes(and cougars) killing their calves.

Then it really don't matter, if you have broken them into using dogs before. They just don't like to see the dogs and also can come after the rider and horse.

 

Jody, what I've done myself here to get the young cattle used to having dogs around, is to keep the bred heifers and replacement heifers close by the head quarters(this winter total 75 head) since I'm feeding them thru the winter months. I take the dogs along to feed and usually have one to keep them off of the pickup until I start to feed.

After feeding I saddle up a horse, ride down there(about 2 miles ride down) with my dogs just to check them etc, so they have gotten to see the dogs around and maybe work them a while, too. Just a good(boring) way to train and exercise my horses and dogs plus getting the stock dog broke(until calving starts;)).

I moved them already for a bigger pasture(about 1400 ac) and used the dogs with no problems plus had to later on move them around on that pasture few times, so they got the know the new feeding area, boundaries, water etc.

 

As far as my main herd, I'm wintering them out on a range and they will be on the range for 5 months without really seeing us, except when I check the water line and take salt out. However, this winter I fed them for about month, so I took my 4 dogs with me to hold the herd back, until I got the bales opened and started feeding. I still know, once I'll start to gather them in the end of March, there will be some that will fight the dogs and I feel the best way to drive them is just to back off a bit if needed and let them move on their own pace(that is, if the calf is very small or the cow is totally on a fight).

 

Slow and boring...that's the way I like to work cattle.

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Slow and boring...that's the way I like to work cattle.

I liked quite a lot of what you had to say. "Slow and boring" is my goal. Dan is not yet on the same page but we're working along in that direction...

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  • 2 months later...

Well, I didn't get to see the first video so I can't comment on it. The Mac MacGregor vid is nice and is pretty typical. Yes most people use multiple dogs to break cattle, especially older cattle and or/cows and calves. Multiple dogs can handle and stop charging cattle much easier than a single dog. If you watch some vids of dogs working cows and calves a lot of times it's not the cow a dog is faced up with that is gonna get him, he's watching here, it's her buddy that's gonna come out beside her and blindside the dog that'll get a dog hurt.

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I wonder if the other link *was broken* because of all the negative commentary? I think it was rightly deserved but someone else probably did not appreciate it one bit.

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Other than the dog wearing what I think is an e-collar, he seems pretty sensible. Looking for nice, quiet work, calmness, and not abusing the stock. That dog has a drop-down "down" and seems pretty relaxed. I'm not sure if I would like to have a long line on a dog in a small pen like this with cattle that aren't dog broke unless you have a good handle on the dog, though.

 

I don't understand why the pen is "lined" with dogs tied up. Other than getting those dogs hyped up, I can't see a purpose in that. I guess he could have his own reason.

 

The two handler/trainers that talked to me about dog-breaking cattle did it simply (and not very differently from this) - walk the dog up gently, lie him down when the cattle start to turn away, let them walk off, and down the dog. Go to the other end, repeat. Teach the cattle that when they move off the dog, they are rewarded by the dog taking off the pressure by lying down.

 

So much better an approach than that first video! JMO.

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