setting the line

[MyTDogs]

Hi All,

 

I am working with my middle aged dog who, due to inconsistent instruction, has spent way too much time fetching sheep. We have been really working hard on our driving & it has been tough but enlightening - in order to use some lighter-less dogged stock, I have to work on my own right now so I'm here for advice from all of you wise stock dog handlers.

 

We have made some progress, our inside flanks are almost there. I've noticed that she is staying behind the stock more now & trying less to catch their eye to turn them back <yay! > But now that she is staying behind them I am seeing that she is not holding her line. I give her a "there" & she turns in nicely & looks great for a few feet. Then the stock drift one way or another and it seems like she will drift with them instead of holding the line. Up to now I have tried 2 things:

 

1. I let her drift with them at first because I was just happy she was staying behind & I wanted her to get comfy back there. But eventually they'd get too far & she'd try to turn them back.

 

2. I have tried to micro manage but it is hard because her inside stops have fallen off some & she ends up over flanking, we play some ping pong & she turns them back- IMO partly because I hurt her confidence when she was young- I didn't know any better- and she is most comfortable bringing them back to me.

 

So how can I get her to hold a better line? I am trying to work with her boosting confidence instead of using as many corrections....it is amazing the difference I see when I can praise instead of correct.

 

Thanks for reading & for any advice you can give!

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Sheepdoggers,

 

Ms/Mr MyTDogs writes:

 

" But now that she is staying behind them I am seeing that she is not holding her line. I give her a "there" & she turns in nicely & looks great for a few feet. Then the stock drift one way or another and it seems like she will drift with them instead of holding the line. "

 

I'm not sure I understand this. Does "holding the line" mean: Dog keeps sheep on original compass bearing whatever the sheep may wish to do or does it mean: Dog keeps pressure on sheep and handler gives slight flanks to keep them on originals bearing.

 

I've had line dogs who could keep docile sheep moving for twenty/thirty yards more-or-less on the same bearing with a few "Steady" whistles but none that could drive from post to drive panel without some flanks. I've also (rarely) seen dogs who got behind sheep and followed without exerting pressure. The sheep drift. The dogs aren't driving; they either haven't "got it" or are refusing to "get it".

 

A convenient, perhaps over crude distinction made is between "line" dogs and "flanking" dogs. The first move sheep by authority and/or eye (and are often hard to flank off balance); the second flip back and forth behind sheep on the fetch or drive and move them by making them nervous ("Ethel, what's that dog doing back there?".

 

Without knowing the dog and the handler (no, a video won't help), I hesitate to make recommendations. What is your dog thinking? What are you and he trying to accomplish?

 

Donald McCaig

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Sheepdoggers,

 

Ms/Mr MyTDogs writes:

 

" But now that she is staying behind them I am seeing that she is not holding her line. I give her a "there" & she turns in nicely & looks great for a few feet. Then the stock drift one way or another and it seems like she will drift with them instead of holding the line. "

 

I'm not sure I understand this. Does "holding the line" mean: Dog keeps sheep on original compass bearing whatever the sheep may wish to do or does it mean: Dog keeps pressure on sheep and handler gives slight flanks to keep them on original bearing.

 

I've had line dogs who could keep docile sheep moving for twenty/thirty yards more-or-less on the same bearing with a few "Steady" whistles but none that could drive from post to drive panel without some flanks. I've also (rarely) seen dogs who got behind sheep and followed without exerting pressure. The sheep drift. The dogs aren't driving; they either haven't "got it" or are refusing to "get it".

 

A helpful, perhaps over crude distinction is between "line" dogs and "flanking" dogs. The first move sheep by authority and/or eye (and are often hard to flank off balance); the second flip back and forth behind sheep on the fetch or drive and move them by making them nervous ("Ethel, what's that dog doing back there?").

 

What is your dog thinking when she's driving away from you? What are you and she trying to accomplish?

 

Donald McCaig

[juliepoudrier]

Have you been walking with her Especially when cross driving you can help her build confidence and really learn to push from behind by spending time walking along on the drive too. You don't need to be near your dog or the sheep--sometimes I'm a good 50-60 yards or more away, but just by walking along parallel to the drive line can help the dog to understand to keep them going straight in a particular direction.

 

As Donald notes, few dogs can just be put on a line and be expected to hold it forever, so expect that you will need to make small adjustments as you go.

 

J.

[MyTDogs]

Okay, see this is very helpful. I have been told (taught??) that when I turn my dog in with a "There" she should walk in and take them on a straight line (even through/over a fence) if I don't turn her.

 

What I am trying to get her to do is hold a straight line-making adjustments on her own as she needs to to keep them on that line. I do walk along with her because she is really pushy too so I need to keep her steady to avoid her pushing, them running & then slipping around to the heads & bringing them back-yay!

 

I try & hang behind & I have been able to get her pace a bit better & get farther away but we only recently started driving in a large open pasture with a group of 6-12 nice sheep (vs a small square arena with 4 or 5 dogged sheep) so the lack of fences to follow has brought this to my attention.

 

Thanks again for the help.

[juliepoudrier]

I think the problem with the "straight line" thing is that the sheep don't know the rules and if they are putting pressure to one side or the other, the dog doesn't necessarily know that you want the sheep to go straight ahead, say, to the tree at the end of the pasture, and so the dog ends up letting the sheep drift a bit unless you help the dog hold the line. I also think that as dogs gain experience, they do get better at holding a line. Many's the time at a trial I've decided to fiddle with a line and have Twist ignore me and fouond out she was right (I think she knows she's aiming for panels), and there have been times when I've insisted she take a flank she didn't want to take and sure enough panels were missed. But I think there are very few dogs who automatically drive a straight line from here to Kingdom Come when they first start to drive. That said, when I tell a dog there, to me that does mean turn in right there and walk *straight* on into the sheep (vs. the dogs who refuse to walk straight into sheep and instead bend to one side or the other, making even the starting attempts at a drive all zig zaggy). But once the dog and sheep are moving on a line, I don't necessarily expect the dog to maintain that line absolutely without input from me.

 

J.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Wouldbe Sheepdoggers,

 

Ms/Mr MyTDogs' writes: "I have been told (taught??) that when I turn my dog in with a "There" she should walk in and take them on a straight line (even through/over a fence) if I don't turn her."

 

Bum Scoop. Think about it. The dog is supposed to be a geometrician laying down a straight line despite what the sheep are trying to do in/on/through any terrain? Without guidance?

 

As Julie said, don't let the dog flank instead of walking in after a "there". If later in the drive, the sheep start to wander put the dog and them back on line. Do work on pace. Proper pace (or controlled pace) is vital - getting a "natural" straight line is goofy and attempting to train it will likely confuse the dog. He doesn't know where those sheep are supposed to go - knowing is your job.

 

If you get the pace, you have a fair chance of (your sheep) staying on line. Sans pace, you can stay on line with, and only with, the personal intervention of the Blessed Virgin.

 

Some open trial dogs, when they hit a "dead spot" on the drive or crossdrive and cannot hear their handler's commands, will push on straight for 10 or 20 yards, but most will go to the heads or flank weird, as soon as they lose handler contact.

 

Donald McCaig

[MyTDogs]

Some open trial dogs, when they hit a "dead spot" on the drive or crossdrive and cannot hear their handler's commands, will push on straight for 10 or 20 yards, but most will go to the heads or flank weird, as soon as they lose handler contact.

 

Really? That is very surprising. Perhaps I am making it harder than it has to be. I was attending trial last year & there was discussion in the gallery about the 2 high scoring runs (they were tied & there was a runoff). Since the 2 runs were one after the other the contrast was very obvious. Despite winning the run off some folks thought that handler "A" used way too many whistles- practically "singing" the dog around the field while Handler "B" used a average amount of whistles, 1 or 2 on the fetch & a few on the drives, etc... I took comments to mean that lots of whistles & constant contact was something that might best be avoided. That the best work was when the dog was allowed to be more natural & not dependent on constant commands from the handler. Kind of like your description of the lift a few days ago...

 

So when in the process of giving my small flanks to keep them on line if she gets too hectic-flipping back & forth-I should just stop her <Lie Down?> and then ask her up quietly & start again?

 

Thanks for the helpful advice!

[MyTDogs]

I think the problem with the "straight line" thing is that the sheep don't know the rules and if they are putting pressure to one side or the other, the dog doesn't necessarily know that you want the sheep to go straight ahead, say, to the tree at the end of the pasture, and so the dog ends up letting the sheep drift a bit unless you help the dog hold the line. I also think that as dogs gain experience, they do get better at holding a line. Many's the time at a trial I've decided to fiddle with a line and have Twist ignore me and fouond out she was right (I think she knows she's aiming for panels), and there have been times when I've insisted she take a flank she didn't want to take and sure enough panels were missed. But I think there are very few dogs who automatically drive a straight line from here to Kingdom Come when they first start to drive. That said, when I tell a dog there, to me that does mean turn in right there and walk *straight* on into the sheep (vs. the dogs who refuse to walk straight into sheep and instead bend to one side or the other, making even the starting attempts at a drive all zig zaggy). But once the dog and sheep are moving on a line, I don't necessarily expect the dog to maintain that line absolutely without input from me.

 

J.

 

Okay, this really helps. I think I must be taking what I was told too literally. I was under the impression that this was something, like the outrun, in the genetics. Perhaps needing a little development but hopefully just under the surface and easily tapped with decent training.

 

I guess the fact that my dog seemed to be born with an appropriate response to "there" (I don't remember teaching it anyway) helped set that myth into my head. She does a nice job turning and walking straight in for the most part. I have noticed that she will occasionally slide up to one side or the other. I correct her- usually with a lie down- then restart. Does this sound okay?

 

On a slight tangent- Donald mentioned how important pace is (perhaps I should've included this in my response to him...) How do you guys recommend developing it? I have been told that I shouldn't lie my dog down too often. I know that I sometimes use it as a crutch when things get hectic-gives me a second to think. My trainer has said that my dog will never learn proper pace if I keep dropping her....Do you agree? Any suggestions? I have come to realize this is our greatest roadblock to success overall.

 

Thanks again for all the advice- it has been extremely helpful! I can't wait for the weekend to try it out

[Pam Wolf]

It is somewhat in the genetics and somewhat in the training. The sheep should bend to the will of the dog. Some dogs are not good at holding the line as are others. Sometimes the dog must flank to keep the sheep going straight. Some dogs do this with few if any commands, others need lots of commands to do the same thing.

A dog that takes the sheep and guides them is much better at this than a dog that guides the sheep and follows them.

 

Tonight I had to drive 3 ewes against a strong draw in a new field at dusk. Dair is a very good dog at taking and holding a line on a drive. Once we got the first 20 feet or so I just let her take them while in the growing dark it got harder and harder to see the sheep. Total drive about 250 yards line quite straight, commands about 5 total, including a recall.

 

Could every dog do this, nope.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Wouldbe Sheepdoggers,

Ms. MYTDogs writes (in part): "I took comments to mean that lots of whistles & constant contact was something that might best be avoided. That the best work was when the dog was allowed to be more natural & not dependent on constant commands from the handler.'

 

Yes and no. Most of us admire the dog that brings the sheep straight on the fetch with fewer commands and there is a practical advantage: commands are stress and given the opportunity (almost always on a fetch) uttering fewer relaxes and rewards the dog. That said; I know no judge who will displace the constantly commanded dog that stays on the line in favor of the natural dog with fewer commands who strays from it. I once counted Johnny Templeton commanding Roy at the Scottish National 30 commands in 20 seconds.

 

Of course, few farmers do much commanding on the fetch: they're putting out feed or opening gates or backing the truck to the loading chute. In some ways our reliance on lines is unfortunate; rewarding sport behavior against working behavior. The silent gather as a tiebreaker is a remedy for this. Most farmers rarely if ever use the drive and many farm dogs have never been taught it.

 

Ms. MYTDogs also asks about pace: "How do you guys recommend developing it? I have been told that I shouldn't lie my dog down too often. I know that I sometimes use it as a crutch when things get hectic-gives me a second to think. My trainer has said that my dog will never learn proper pace if I keep dropping her....Do you agree?"

 

There are several issues here. First: many novices down the dog "to give the handler a second to think". The remedy for this bad habit is: Think Faster (You will in time). Secondly, many handlers down the dog because the down is submission/contact and says, "I'm in charge here". That continues until a very high level of human/dog performance is achieved. The most frequent command you'll hear at any trial is "Down".

 

Probably the best way to teach a dog pace is great experience. If every time he gathers the hill and pushes he has to regather and he wears himself out doing so, he will learn to pace himself.

 

Most of us lack a hill and pace has to be trained and the how depends on the dog. Luke, my 10 year old open trial dog was pushy and is pushy despite considerable training. For Luke, I demand the down at the top, check him frequently on the fetch and reassure him going 'round the post.

It's easier to get a pace on the drive because Luke will have lost his "OhMGODI'MGOINGTODOITME,ME,I"MGOINGTO DOIT!!!!! on the fetch.

 

You can teach a dog that busting up the sheep (which he'll do if he's too pushy) displeases you. You can use a multistrength DOWN whistle which means "Go Off Your Feet Right Now!!", "Stop and stand!" , and "Steady" depending on how strongly you utter it. Most dogs will develop a fairly good pace because that's what works best and pleases you. Others, like Luke, never get it and do better on heavy, difficult sheep than lighter ones.

 

Some sheepdogs (like Bev Lambert's Mirk) have a natural approach/pace and are said to be "Kind to their sheep" or "The sheep like them". Such dogs are rare and command big money.

 

Donald McCaig

[Pam Wolf]

Walking miles with sheep will help develop pace. Pace is necessary for good driving IMHO. Most of my dogs develop pace when I have to move the flock over long distances to various fields especially when we are moving them daily. As I do this half the time in the morning I do not want to be giving a bunch of commands I may be walking with my coffee in hand and not fully awake. And besides I do not like giving a bunch of commands Teach the dog to think.

[Lana]

 

 

Most farmers rarely if ever use the drive and many farm dogs have never been taught it.

 

Donald McCaig

 

Donald not sure what you base this on but i disagree. Much of my sheep work is driving, any large cattle or sheep op that uses dogs needs a dog than can push and drive many animals. Not to say a good gathering dog is not also needed but many ranchers want a dog who can push from behind and drive.

 

As to dogs with push i would much prefer to ride a brake all day then beg a dog to work. Many careful dogs wont push tough sheep or large mobs. Now would they have before they got screwed down so hard to trial? I always wonder.

 

I also prefer a line dog or a dog with a bit more eye. They can be tougher to deal with but, i don't like to tell a dog ever step, and i dont enjoy watching those who do. Just my preferences.

 

I would add that it was pointed out to me at a clinic this summer by Mr Macrae that i tend to be so into letting my dog "do the work" that sometimes when i do ask for control back i can't get it. Also pointed out that if i wanted to have more success at trials i should find a better balance of the two. Great advice.

 

 

Lana Rowley

[Debbie Meier]

We have made some progress, our inside flanks are almost there. I've noticed that she is staying behind the stock more now & trying less to catch their eye to turn them back <yay! > But now that she is staying behind them I am seeing that she is not holding her line. I give her a "there" & she turns in nicely & looks great for a few feet. Then the stock drift one way or another and it seems like she will drift with them instead of holding the line

 

A couple of things that have helped me, given to me by other trainers:

 

When she is in behind the stock make sure that she is not too close, if your stock is real broke and trusts her she could end up tracking in too close, to the point where she can not hold the line, if she wanted to. Basically she could be compromising her working advantage by being in a place where she can only create motion vs. being in the place where she can create & control the the motion while controling direction.

 

In order for her to hold the line she has to be back off and out away from her work a little bit so that she can feel entire group.

 

There is nothing wrong with flanking the dog over to re-establish or correct the line but you have to remember that to the dog they are obeying a flank and flanking around, they don't know that you want to reset the line so you have to stop the flank when they get to the right place to reset the line.

 

In order to help the dog hold the line I will use little calls to me or hisses away as I walk with them, rather then flanks, just to help the dog move a little left or right helping them stay on that pressure point. If a little slide won't do it then I stop them, flank them and then walk them up again to reset the line and then try to help them balance it again.

 

Some dogs are pretty quick to pick up on that there is a different feel at that specific point and others just don't seem to ever feel it for long or get distracted by the desire to hunt a different point. Some cross drive work finding a place in your field where the sheep want to curl too will also help the dog find and hold the weight. Carol explained that in her posts over at Ask the Expert section last year. Helped me a bunch with Jake who is attacted to a different pressure point.

 

A dog that can hold a line is a awesome thing to watch, especially when you know the sheep are getting to a place where they should change course based on a draw and rather you see the dog slide over to compensate without a work/whistle from the handler. It's also cool as you are training that first time while driving away from you, you see the sheep start to bend and the dog moves over in front of you toward the inside to counter vs. encouraging the bend back to you.

 

Deb

[Pam Wolf]

I'm with Lana here. When moving a large bunch I tend to drive more than fetch. Both are used. Around here more farmers drive than fetch but with a good balance between the two it is more helpful. True, most of the driving when taking the sheep distances is not precision driving but it is often they go ahead of me quite a way and I folow up to close a gate. But sometimes it is nice to have the dog drive long distances to save soem footwork on my part.

[rac]

Good topic and good tips from everybody. Walking along with the dog (from the side and from behind) that's beginning to drive is fundamental. When the "sheep turn" is the dog turning them toward you (or back to you), or is it just following whichever way they go ? If the dog is just beginning to drive I'll walk along wherever is needed to keep the drive going, and I don't particularly care where the drive goes as long as it continues (targets come later). I find most dogs will start driving easier if you walk off to the side, often they prefer one side at first. Some don't mind taking them straight away from you though. Almost all of them will try to hook around and bring them back to you. If this is what's happening then I would try to firstly keep inside their comfort distance and see if that doesn't help. Then I would try to get to the point where I can walk behind the dog and just a little off to one side and try to notice when the dog is first starting to creep up to turn them. When you see this try moving over to the other side of the centerline (that comes from the sheep through the dog) and see if your change in position doesn't push the dog back the other way. If you catch it early enough you won't have to say anything, and if you're inside the dog's 'confidence bubble' the dog should just keep on moving. Keep doing this and the dog should care less and less about where you are. I like to use this technique to teach inside driving flanks as well. I like to work within a dog's confidence bubble most of the time so they'll gain confidence (duh) about what they're doing more quickly. Then I'll stretch it out as they can handle it.

 

I don't think I'd worry about pace until the driving is more firmly established. You might confuse the dog by wanting it to push and then insisting that it back itself off. If the sheep get running I'd probably just stop the dog and start again. Most dogs are pretty pacey anyway when they first start driving.

 

Ray

[MyTDogs]

I just want to quickly thank you ALL for the wonderful advice. It is so great to be able to ask a question like this & get such thoughtful, educated responses.

 

I will reply tonight with answers & probably more questions.

 

Thanks again!

[Liz P]

Today I was working on driving with minimal commands. I have a bad habit of giving too many. At one point I asked him to take the flock from the north to south side of the field. There are several strong draws along the way, mostly towards the south end. He had been pushing from behind, walking on steady and straight for the first half of the drive. Suddenly the sheep tried to bolt to the left. Without any commands he flanked, held them on the line then fell back in behind them. Another 20 yards farther along and they bolted towards the clump of trees on the right. Once again he flanked to keep them on the line then fall back into place behind them. Other than the first walk up command to set him up for the drive I didn't say a word the entire time. Good boy Frankie.

 

Seems to me like a case of a dog holding the line on its own.