Does it exist anymore?

[abcollie]

I see what you guys mean by the lack of guarantees. But it is still hard for me to accept the concept of letting someone chose for me and just going for it, I mean what if you get the pup and for some reason you just really don't connect with him/her what do you? Just live with it? Choosing a dog is so unsettling! lol, will I ever be ready?

 

When you are into working dogs ... the first time that "pup" casts around sheep and tries to hold pressure ... you will think he/she is the most beautiful thing you have ever "laid eyes on" and has personality galore. That's why "working people" go for the breeding not the individual pup. You and the dog bond so closely when you work together ... what ever the personality or looks are ... suddenly they are just what you always wanted.

 

I use to NOT like freckles on a dog UNTIL I had a really nice working dog with freckles and I decided freckles looked pretty darn cute. Same for Tri ... didn't really like the looks of them UNTIL I had a great working Tri ... now I love em' :@)

 

I've actually had dogs I didn't really "care" for (meaning love to be around not didn't take care of them) UNTIL they got on stock and we clicked. Then we were best friends for life.

 

It's about the work for both you and the dog.

 

Good luck in finding your best-friend:@)

[Ooky]

I see what you guys mean by the lack of guarantees. But it is still hard for me to accept the concept of letting someone chose for me and just going for it, I mean what if you get the pup and for some reason you just really don't connect with him/her what do you? Just live with it? Choosing a dog is so unsettling! lol, will I ever be ready?

 

Two answers - one, if you really don't connect with the dog, my opinion is you rehome it responsibly. Then take a good look at yourself and really assess if it was really just that dog, or the breed, or even if maybe dogs just aren't for you!

 

Two, and more encouragingly, I personally think that most dogs are better than most people, and when trained appropriately, and when you've built up a relationship, they are just really, really wonderful companions. This percentage is even higher with BCs IMHO. Of course I'm biased. But I think your odds are pretty good of finding a pup you will love, even without picking it from the litter at 8 weeks old!

[geonni banner]

Nobody loves to sit in a pile of pups and be chosen by one better than me. But Just because you click with a pup when looking at a whole litter doesn't mean that dog will be magic for you.

 

I too waited for four years for a specific bitch to conceive so I could have one of her pups. The closest I could get was 2nd pick - and the first pick pup was the one that "spoke to me." Luckily, that 1st pick pup showed pretty quickly that he was not breed-ring material, (This was a LONG time ago) so I got him anyway. He was a lovely dog, but definitely not what people describe as a "heart dog."

 

It's amazing to me how some people - it's happened to me - can go to the pound and pick an adult dog that they know little or nothing about and have it be their all-time, bestest, wonderfullest dog. But some of these same people will balk at having limited choices from a top-quality litter.

 

I have a dog now that probably came from an unplanned breeding, and has had some serious issues. But I wouldn't take for her. She is my bestest dog ever.

 

After you've done the pre-purchase work of choosing a breeder who meets your ethical standards, and whose adult dogs appeal to you for either working talent, style or just having the kind of personality/ mind that you want, getting a pup is like playing poker. It isn't so much what cards you get, as how skillfully you play them. Sometimes you're dealt a royal flush. But over the length of the game, whatever cards you get, winning depends more on your skill as a player than the pips on the cards.

 

If you trust the breeder enough to buy from him/her, then trust them to listen to what kind of life you envision with a dog and then choose a pup for you. They know the dogs and the pups better than anyone.

[juliepoudrier]

^^Well said, Geonni.

 

As Candy pointed out, you can have a pup that might not be your ideal as far as what you envisioned for yoourself, but once you start partnering with that dog (in whatever you choose to do with it), usually all the little things don't matter anymore.

 

An example would by my Ranger. He's not the pup I would have picked out of that litter if the choice had been mine (but it was a small litter and I was last on the list based on the number of pups born). But I've had the opportunity to observe the other pups in that litter, and it turns out that Ranger was indeed the best dog for me (and it really was luck that I ended up with him). It took me a while to warm up to him, and his attitude working with me on stock certainly helped because we started to develop a partnership (and such partnerships aren't the exclusive purview of those who work stock, though that type of partnership is like no other), and even though he's not "my type" of dog, I love him to death and I think we have a bright future together.

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

A friend and a flyball teammate has been looking at rescue as she wants another border collie that she can do flyball with and maybe some other things. She's been looking up and down the East Coast for a young dog as she prefers under 6 months of age. The problem with rescues around here is the fact that 1. there are not that many available under 6 months that are purebred 2. if there are litters available the list for a puppy seems quite long even for rescue or 3. she always seems late for the draw. She has also been in contact with rescues in a few different states. So yeah rescue would be nice but is not always available. She has been looking for 6 plus months. She wants a purebred.

 

Not on the east coast, but, I did just speak with a trainer/breeder that has a female that he is looking to rehome to a sport home, she's not making it in his program. The dog is in Nebraska. Also, try contacting the Nebraska Border Collie Rescue, they occassionally list some well bred, nice dogs that are working dog washouts. The dog may be able to cut it for lower level competition but may not be strong enough for the work they were sold for and were returned to the breeder or they may lack the talent to make it to solid Open competition level.

 

It's not unusual for us to see a dog sent down the road if it is not able to solidly run Pro-Novice by the time they are 1 1/2, unless they really are showing something special.

 

Deb

[denice]

Heather,

 

I would suggest while you are waiting to find the right match use the time to really investigate different dogs and the things you enjoy or don't enjoy about them. Do you like a softer, sensitive dog or an independent minded one. What are the things you find drawn to in a dog. What things bother you. Make a list. This will help when you and the breeder discuss the pups. Some litters I have had all the pups are rather similar and it is hard to pick because of that. Some litters it is evident the pups personalities and dispositions are more diverse. If you like the dog always lying next to you, following you from room to room ect the breeder would be able to point out those pups who they believe would suit that and then you can choice from there. Most breeders want to get each pup in a great home and that means helping to make the right matches. It is because of the breeder spending time with the pups, wanting to get them in great homes that they may pick the pup for the folks. I had a family wanting a pup from my last litter that would be raised in the house with three young girls and help on the farm with sheep with a very novice handler. They wanted a b/w male. I choice the pup I thought would be a bit softer, quieter and yet still do what they needed with the sheep. I would not have sold them the strong willed independent male even if that was the one they wanted. That said I think much of the success has to do with how you raise a pup and the expectations you have of them and the commitment to raise them in such a way to enable them to fulfill your expectations.

 

Denice

[Alchemist]

Nobody loves to sit in a pile of pups and be chosen by one better than me. But Just because you click with a pup when looking at a whole litter doesn't mean that dog will be magic for you....After you've done the pre-purchase work of choosing a breeder who meets your ethical standards, and whose adult dogs appeal to you for either working talent, style or just having the kind of personality/ mind that you want, getting a pup is like playing poker. It isn't so much what cards you get, as how skillfully you play them. Sometimes you're dealt a royal flush. But over the length of the game, whatever cards you get, winning depends more on your skill as a player than the pips on the cards.

 

If you trust the breeder enough to buy from him/her, then trust them to listen to what kind of life you envision with a dog and then choose a pup for you. They know the dogs and the pups better than anyone.

 

Geonni: ***GREAT*** response! It brings to mind the saying: "it's not so much the cards you're dealt in life - it's how you play them".

 

If I can extend the analogy, though - it IS possible to "stack the deck". Choosing a puppy from a reputable breeder who selects for temperament and working ability (even if you're looking for a pet); selecting an older dog from a reputable rescue, whose temperament is more of a "done deal" (known entity); engaging any puppy you acquire in socialization with other dogs, people, and other pets during that critical "window"; engaging a puppy or dog in basic obedience training (and being consistent!); finding an activity to engage in with your dog (be it tracking, agility, herding, competitive obedience) - all these enhance your odds of ending up with a dog who is a pleasure to be around. A dog who will be your treasured partner.

 

Sure, there are things you can do wrong that could damage the best of pups. Throw it in the back yard for six months and ignore it. Don't bother with any obedience training. Take it to a dog park when it's a puppy and let it get attacked by an older dog so that it becomes fearful.

 

Conversely, there are things you can do that enhance, or diminish, your odds. Temperament is largely hard-wired. If you're getting a puppy from a breeder, choose a puppy whose parents have great temperaments, and whose other pups have grown into dogs with great temperaments, because this really helps. But there are breeders who don't value temperaments, and the result could well be a puppy who, even with expert intervention, is not all that you might wish in your next dog. A shy/fearful puppy will always require more effort and would be a daunting undertaking for a novice owner.

 

I was tempted to purchase a puppy from a local breeder; I, too, had visions of going and selecting "the pick" of the litter. I've since heard from a BC Boards member that they view this breeder as a "puppy miller". Yes, the pups are raised in clean and sanitary conditions, but she has far too many litters on the ground each year. Moreover - the BC Boards member I talked to used to be active in Border collie rescue. She said she used to run into a lot of this particular breeder's dogs who were surrendered to rescue because of temperament issues. It all stemmed from a sire she was using who had a bad temperament. I'm devoutly grateful for the fact that lurking on these Boards set me on a different path.

 

You've gotten some great advice here. Don't rush into things. Meet a lot of dogs (especially, as several have suggested, by hanging out at trials). Most people at trials are very friendly and would be more than happy to chat with you, let you meet their dogs. Watch how they interact with their dogs, and how their dogs interact with their handlers. Give careful thought as to what sort of "partner" you seek in a dog. And enjoy the journey!

[Heather Rae]

Heather,

 

I would suggest while you are waiting to find the right match use the time to really investigate different dogs and the things you enjoy or don't enjoy about them. Do you like a softer, sensitive dog or an independent minded one. What are the things you find drawn to in a dog. What things bother you. Make a list. This will help when you and the breeder discuss the pups. Some litters I have had all the pups are rather similar and it is hard to pick because of that. Some litters it is evident the pups personalities and dispositions are more diverse. If you like the dog always lying next to you, following you from room to room ect the breeder would be able to point out those pups who they believe would suit that and then you can choice from there. Most breeders want to get each pup in a great home and that means helping to make the right matches. It is because of the breeder spending time with the pups, wanting to get them in great homes that they may pick the pup for the folks. I had a family wanting a pup from my last litter that would be raised in the house with three young girls and help on the farm with sheep with a very novice handler. They wanted a b/w male. I choice the pup I thought would be a bit softer, quieter and yet still do what they needed with the sheep. I would not have sold them the strong willed independent male even if that was the one they wanted. That said I think much of the success has to do with how you raise a pup and the expectations you have of them and the commitment to raise them in such a way to enable them to fulfill your expectations.

 

Denice

Denice, thank you, I'll do that.

 

 

I suppose you all know better than I about choosing dogs, but I am going to be sad about not having that part. I suppose it's better to have a good match. Maybe some day I'll get to play with a litter even if I'm not taking anyone home with me.

 

Thanks everyone.

[bcnewe2]

Heather

When you pick your breeder, I see no reason why, even though you might not be getting your "pick" of the moment that the breeder would not let you come over and wallow in puppy cuteness. Everyone needs to wallow in puppies at some time. And at a certain point it's good for them to be handled by others.

Just ask.

 

 

It's really nice to see the boards working in a manner that does itself proud! Thanks Heather for reading and thinking, whatever your decision you are better informed than when this started! YEA!

[Heather Rae]

Heather

When you pick your breeder, I see no reason why, even though you might not be getting your "pick" of the moment that the breeder would not let you come over and wallow in puppy cuteness. Everyone needs to wallow in puppies at some time. And at a certain point it's good for them to be handled by others.

Just ask.

 

 

It's really nice to see the boards working in a manner that does itself proud! Thanks Heather for reading and thinking, whatever your decision you are better informed than when this started! YEA!

 

That's a good point, hopefully, I meet someone who is willing. I'm glad you thought of it and I wonder why I didn't, just because they are selected doesn't mean they get to go until they're ready. =]

[border_collie_crazy]

I see what you guys mean by the lack of guarantees. But it is still hard for me to accept the concept of letting someone chose for me and just going for it, I mean what if you get the pup and for some reason you just really don't connect with him/her what do you? Just live with it? Choosing a dog is so unsettling! lol, will I ever be ready?

 

 

see this is where I agree, I cant stand not picking my own puppy. IME my best dogs have always picked me, I have one dog who was picked for me..she is is the exact opposite of what I wanted, I love her, she's my baby, but our bond is totally differet from the dogs that picked me, and her complete lack of what I was looking for, makes overcoming that much harder. VS say Happy who was pegged by her breeder and by trainers as the exact opposite of what she became, she was the runt, the puppy with no expectations, the puppy that the breeder turned sport buyers away from. even growing up the judges and other teams who met her had no expectations for her. I took her anyway, we pick each ther, and Happy BTW ended up the best of the entire litter(10 pups), leaving judges staring in shock and other clubs begging us to cross over to them. to me there is something totally differnt there when you and your dog pick eachother, something thats only a shot in the dark when someone else chooses for you.

[geonni banner]

see this is where I agree, I cant stand not picking my own puppy. IME my best dogs have always picked me, I have one dog who was picked for me..she is is the exact opposite of what I wanted, I love her, she's my baby, but our bond is totally differet from the dogs that picked me, and her complete lack of what I was looking for, makes overcoming that much harder. VS say Happy who was pegged by her breeder and by trainers as the exact opposite of what she became, she was the runt, the puppy with no expectations, the puppy that the breeder turned sport buyers away from. even growing up the judges and other teams who met her had no expectations for her. I took her anyway, we pick each ther, and Happy BTW ended up the best of the entire litter(10 pups), leaving judges staring in shock and other clubs begging us to cross over to them. to me there is something totally differnt there when you and your dog pick eachother, something thats only a shot in the dark when someone else chooses for you.

Hmmmm. Well, that is your experience, and I respect that.

 

But for many people it is different. After all, how many people get to pick their children?

 

I think that if you look at your new pup with eyes unclouded by wishes and expectations, and value the dog that you get for what she/he is, you will likely forge a satisfying relationship regardless of who chooses the pup. If not, well then, there will be someone out there who can. And you can try again. But really, like most relationships, you get out of them what you put into them.

 

I say, choose your breeder carefully and let the pup come to you in its own way regardless of whether you or the breeder chooses it. Don't try to make it something that it isn't. Once you have your pup, take the dog you imagine out of your head and look at the one that stands before you. The pup will do the same for you - guaranteed.

[Liz P]

Heather, I think I understand why you are so concerned about choosing the perfect puppy. You are searching for that one special dog of your dreams, your best buddy and soul mate. I felt the same way when I got my first Border Collie, and once I had owned him for awhile I firmly believed that there would never be another that I loved as much.

 

My first Border Collie was special, but so was my second, third, fourth, fifth... I loved each one as an individual. While I have been closer to some than to others, I could have never predicted which ones that would be when they were just 8 weeks old. Relationships don't happen in a day, they are built slowly over time.

 

Those of us who have had many dogs understand that they will all be special in their own way. As long as you choose the breed, bloodline and actual litter that will suit you, almost any pup will be the perfect one.

[kajarrel]

I suppose you all know better than I about choosing dogs, but I am going to be sad about not having that part.

 

I think your sentiment is perfectly natural. A relationship is between a pup and a person. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to choose a pup you're attracted to and to miss that you're not able to do this any more. My first few (working) border collies were bought from a farmer in much the way you describe; it was a lot of fun.

 

Kim

[Circle C]

I like to pick myself if I can, but I have had pups picked for me and one of them was my once in a lifetime dog. Sadly, I lost her at a young age due to a health problem (non-genetic). It was just one of those things.

 

I picked Casper and Fatboy myself... actually, Casper was the only male in the litter and I wanted a male, so not much of a choice. He's been one of the best dogs Ive ever had and has never had to see a vet other than routine care.

 

Fatboy I also picked, but he was the only male left that wasnt sold. He's a bit if an ADD freak, but he's a cool dog.

[Journey]

I guess I don't get it. I can't recall ever "picking" my pups. I told the breeder what I was looking for and they sent me what they thought fit (and you couldn't pry them from me now). My last litter only 1 person got to pick, after that they crated up and flew to variuos parts of the country. I called owners told them flight info and which pup was heading their way. The one I kept I didn't pick - she picked me and it was more than obvious!

[Shetlander]

I guess I don't get it. I can't recall ever "picking" my pups. I told the breeder what I was looking for and they sent me what they thought fit (and you couldn't pry them from me now). My last litter only 1 person got to pick, after that they crated up and flew to variuos parts of the country. I called owners told them flight info and which pup was heading their way. The one I kept I didn't pick - she picked me and it was more than obvious!

 

Maybe it is more a pet owner thing. I like to look at the puppies or puppy myself. I at least want a description of the puppy's behavior/personality and photos to look at if I can't see the puppy in person. Quinn's breeder's view of him at 8 weeks was over 90% accurate for the type of dog he grew into. And the puppy test results have haunted me at times.

[juliepoudrier]

I still think it comes down to the type of breeder you want to choose from. If you get on a list and you can actually see the pups in person, then unless you're absolutely last on the list, you'll get to pick from something, if not the entire litter. If you want to travel to where the pups are and pick yours in order, you could do that too. But as has also been said in this thread repeatedly, if you want to go hang with the litter and be able to pick the exact one you want from all the pups that are there, then the litter will have to be close enough to do that and you have to be at the top of the list (or choose from a litter where there is no list, which in itself is a red flag). So there's still a choice to go roll around with some puppies and pick your favorite, but doing so comes with a compromise, and that compromise is that you're going to be going to a local breeder who for some reason doesn't have people lined up to get puppies at the first hint that a breeding taking place.

 

IOW, if you head down the street to the local BYB, you probably won't have any problem tumbling around with the puppies and having your pick of the litter. If you want a well-bred pup from a much-desired cross, your choices will be more limited. Personally, I'll take a limited choice (or having someone else choose) from a well-bred, desirable litter over a litter that no one is particularly interested in any day.

 

Most breeders I've know have been more than happy to provide full descriptions of personality and behavior and photos out the wazoo, and I don't think anyone who's said that they've allowed a breeder to pick for them has taken a pup without any knowledge about that pup beyond who the parents were.

 

Anyone who is on Facebook or even here knows that people post pictures of litters all the time. Anna has posted her litter here. Usually people talk about the various pups too. I think it would be a rare case indeed when you (general you) would get a pup without having any idea about it as an individual.

 

ETA: I also think part of the problem is that for those of us who got puppies "back then" the usual option was a local breeder, probably of KC-registered dogs. Heck, it might even have been just a neighbor who happened to have a litter of pups. And so you went, played, and picked. And I imagine that if you (general you) took that approach to finding a pup today, you could still do that today if you wanted to. But once you start thinking about breeders and breeding practices, then already limits to choice arise. It's simply a paradigm shift from the way things used to be done to the way they're done now.

 

In a similar vein, in the olden days if you just wanted a dog you'd get one from your neighbor who happened to have a litter, or you'd a find a stray, or whatever--dogs were just around. Now, people are much more likely to go to shelters or breed rescues. A paradigm shift. (Not saying that dogs still aren't just around, but people's approaches--in general--to finding dogs for themselves have changed somewhat.)

 

J.

[Carson Crazies]

The thing, as I see it, is that a litter that's on the ground and ready to go home (at 8 weeks old) that is completely unspoken for (and thus allowing you to wallow around and walk away with the perfect one) is a Very. Bad. Sign. Sure, you can find it. But is it going to be a responsible breeding? No.

 

I was fortunate with my first pup - but most people don't get quite this lucky. I got a call to say, "Twist just had your puppy." I'll never in my life forget those words. I was on my way to Camp LeJeune to do a home visit for a foster dog I was placing, and I'll never forget how excited I was when the phone rang. 12 hours later I was over there holding puppies!!! I wasn't first on the list, so there was still a chance that someone could have picked my puppy. But he was who the breeder would have picked for me, and he was who I would have picked for me too. And it turns out we've picked each other every day since.

 

I'll admit that I got to wallow around in the puppy pile as often as I could get over there. Every day I fell in love with each one of those puppies for different reasons.

 

Anyway, I've had the chance to get to know most of the pups from that litter over the last 4-1/2 years, and four of the other 7 puppies have either come for sleepovers or have stayed with me for some amount of time. I can honestly say that I would have loved to have had any one of them. See, I stacked the deck in my favor. I knew that I wanted what that particular breeding was likely to produce.

 

The other day I was driving by a parking lot, and some dude was out there with two adult german shepherds, and a whole ex-pen of puppies. I could have gone over there and picked out a puppy from the pile. I shudder to even think.

[Shetlander]

I've only been first on the list once when choosing a puppy. Otherwise, I chose from a limited selection. When I got my Lhasa, I drove out to see the puppy the breeder was pushing for me to take. He was very sweet but not at all what I wanted in terms of temperament . When she realized I was going to pass, she pulled out a puppy she had been holding back for someone else. He was just what I wanted (I thought -- the first puppy would have been much easier to live with) and I chose the furry little buzz saw. Of course, that brings us to another subject -- being careful of what you wish for.

[Olivia]

When I got Griffin I had waited for well over a year for his mom and dad to be bred. I'll never forget the call when the pups were a week old from the breeder telling me "I have your puppy". I didn't have any requirements though I really did want a male which is fortunate as the litter was 5 boys! She said that he was his daddy made over again and boy was she right. I never saw a picture or anything so had no idea what he looked like except for the verbal description that he was black and white, traditionally marked and rough coated. I must say he was the most handsome of the bunch (not at all biased...) and he matched my situation better than any dog I could have imagined. When I went to pick him up I was the first puppy home to get there so I did get to wallow in puppy-ness, which I will never turn down, but Griffin was my boy.

 

I don't mind a good breeder picking my puppy for me. I do like to have some input as to what I'm looking for but if it's a cross I really like then most of the puppies would probably be as good as the others. I'm sure the breeder knows the pups much better than I would after an hour of puppy play. I also know that if I have my heart set on a boy or girl or have to have a traditionally marked dog or whatever then I might not get a pup from the litter and may have to wait for either the next litter or find another one.

[geonni banner]

If you like hangin' with puppies, consider volunteering at a shelter or pound.

They have puppies pretty regular. You can wallow to your heart's content. Pups is pups. Cute, funny, puppy-breath - all that.

 

Then you can go home to the great dog that was chosen for you by a really good, knowledgeable breeder. It'll make you grateful...

[Heather Rae]

If you like hangin' with puppies, consider volunteering at a shelter or pound.

They have puppies pretty regular. You can wallow to your heart's content. Pups is pups. Cute, funny, puppy-breath - all that.

 

Then you can go home to the great dog that was chosen for you by a really good, knowledgeable breeder. It'll make you grateful...

 

 

*smiles* Actually I am working on becoming a volunteer but for some reason it's proving to be very difficult, much more difficult than becoming a volunteer for a preschool class, and that disturbs me a little.

[bcnewe2]

Since I have never volunteered for a shelter (hangs head in shame) I'm curious, why is it proving difficult?

[Heather Rae]

Since I have never volunteered for a shelter (hangs head in shame) I'm curious, why is it proving difficult?

 

 

I'm not sure. I'm friendly and passionate about animals but I think many get community service hours done there maybe they only take so many of those, so I'm wonder if they just assume I'm trying to make up for stealing a laptop or something instead of just pure pleasure. Or they just really don't need an volunteers or they're only looking for fosters? Could this be? I go there and there are dogs whining in cages, surely they could be played with and even trained a little for good manners?

 

I'm going to a rescue event and hopefully I can get some more info on volunteering.