How to do an "Alpha Roll"

[Maja]

Kristen,

I agree, I also have seen two dogs do an alpha roll, both were guard dogs. Whether it meant what the people say it means I don't know.

 

Maja

[alligande]

Dear Doggers,

Most civilians confuse leading a dog pack with the dogs' instant and blind obedience. "One command/one time", "Don't give any command you can't enforce" are traditional obedience mantras and like it or not, traditional obedience and its awards are still the pet dog gold standard. "Positive" trainers who've never earned advanced obedience titles are criticized for the failure.

 

I don't intend to delve deeper into obedience culture/history/meaning but I suggest that when people think of a "pack leader" they think of (a) one whose dog has been trained to heel off lead and ( one whose dog can be prevented from visiting that bitch in season across a busy street by a simple recall.

 

The civilian believes pack leadership requires doggy robots, dependent at every moment for instruction from the robot controller.

 

I believe pack leadership is sensitive to the dog's life world and expects not perfect but conditional obedience.

 

We don't have perfect obedience or anything like it. Because they and I KNOW perfect obedience isn't required.

 

Donald McCaig

 

Thank you Mr McCaig, you have stated perfectly what I have always felt about my dogs and why I have never been comfortable with traditional obedience training. We all have our own expectations, in our house for example we want perfect manners indoors, but I can see no reason in our lives for a perfect heel.

[pammyd]

Thankyou guys some interesting articles and in the main I totaly agree

 

I think even IF a wolf or dog did the alpha roll thing we cannot possibly understand the subitlties of comunications that are going on here or the reasons behind it

Its funny we pick up on the pinning them down bit to make us boss, why dont we think about where and how we pee? - would it make me more or less of an alpha if I cocked my leg and peed over my dogs pee - or would I just get arrested

As a child I remember reading an article saying to be the 'top dog' you had to stair down your dog - holding eye contact until your dog looked away, and then once they did you had to assert your dominance by mounting the dog

The photograph was of a small lady 'mounting' a v confused looking retrever

Thankfully that one never caught on either

 

Dogs have been living with humans for a very long time, much better if we try and behave like humans and let our dogs behave like dogs

 

I totaly agree with not having 100% obedient either

My dogs are well trained, with rosettes and stuff to their names - but they also sometimes bounce and pull on the lead and ignore me - and I am totaly happy with that. If I NEED their focus then I get it, if I want to just chill on a walk and look at the flowers then we walk, being aware of where each other are without the need to have strict commands

[Pam Wolf]

If you really notice in the 'so called alpha rolls' with the LGD's the dog on the bottom actually rolled over. I see this all the time, but when the LGD forced the other dog into the bottom position it was with quite a bit of force and it was in an effort to do some serious damage to the dog

[bcnewe2]

If you really notice in the 'so called alpha rolls' with the LGD's the dog on the bottom actually rolled over. I see this all the time, but when the LGD forced the other dog into the bottom position it was with quite a bit of force and it was in an effort to do some serious damage to the dog

 

I'm not clear on what you mean.

 

I do watch my dogs very closely, it's something I enjoy and when you have over a certain amount of dogs you just do to make sure things are running smoothly.

Mick is a alpha male in our house. Infact he is the only male. Only one he defers to is an old female here and me but let's not use humans in the situation.

So Mick has raised all my lgd's to be "under" him. He will and does jump on them anytime he feels the need to "show" them he is in charge or if they break "his" rules. Yes I know what will set him off with any dog but especially with my own pack. He's not a dog that allows others to be in his space/face.

 

When Lil the LGD pinns him down she is not really using much force. She doesn't have to, she weighs about 130 and he weighs about 40# soaking wet. So the size alone and Mick's health issues compared to Lily's youth and great shape gives her a huge advantage. What doesn't give her advantage is that she is subservent to her pack leader which is Mick.

That being said she is a guard dog and does a great job fending off predators. She is naturally a strong dog physically. But mentally she is a giant loverdog. We know she's not out loving the coyotes, bears, or mountain lions that she has protected my flock from so she knows how to turn on her muscle.

 

She's not really into pinning Mick down but will do so if she feels the need to, most of the time I see her just roll over on her side (not back) and lets mick know he's still in charge. Heck she'll let any of "her" border collie mates roll her over in her own pack, Or maybe I should say you are right, she rolls over for them. I don't think she'd be so nice to a visiting dog but she certainly lets other dogs come work "her" sheep without incident but I am there to assure her it's ok.

 

So she knocks him over, puts her front paw on his chest the whole whlie Mick is still growling snapping and would def. make contact if he could, he has drawn blood on her in the past so he is not all show, he means business. they were not bad injuries but I also know she was getting a bit upset by the hardness which Mick comes at her somtimes.

She is not biting him, nor glaring at him. She is holding him in a manner of saftey to herself and waits till I come get him. I have been late and it amped up a bit but she is still hesitant to correct her leader. As she ages (almost 2) I see a bit more confrontation coming out of her but I think that is natural for a maturing LGD plus Mick is not such a nice leader.

 

I have owned several LGD's, raised 4. 3 were males that Mick always ruled, then there's Lily my only female. I've also witnessed one of my male LGD's do the same with Mick, he would roll over on his side but one day Mick took it to far so I watched the male LGD knock Mick over and hold him down with one paw. Never offered to bite Mick and didn't harm him in anyway. Just held him down till I could get there. It was over 30 seconds till I could get there, Mick never stopped growling and trying to make contact, the male LGD did nothing but stand on top of him.

 

These are my personal experiences with my personal dogs. I can tell you for sure, that Mick has never rolled over by his own accord for any dog...NEVER! He'd die protecting his so called alpha status. Of that I'm sure. Unfortunatly he has the scares to prove it and as he ages, I feel he's going to have a rude awakening when he picks on the wrong dog.

 

And don't get me wrong, I'm not proud of my jerky dog, but have never been albe to affect a change that is lasting. From what I've researched, this dog aggressioin is heavy in his line. But he happened to get more of it than some of his relatives. I'm sure since he was one of my first true working dogs, I contributed to some of his crap, but I swear, I will never again own a dog that has these sort of issues. I will sell, or give away one that has these same issues. He was/is one heck of a stockdog and maybe when he was younger a tougher or stronger handler could have worked some of this out. I've had quite a few top handlers throw their arms up in the air, and say...he is what he is, find a way to deal with him. I have but again, I don't ever want another dog like that again.

 

just my observations of my own dogs and alpha rolls they do themselves. and for the record, I tried alpha rolling with Mick long ago, he would never bite me but the rolling did nothing, he came back up the exact same way I rolled him over.

[geonni banner]

For people who say, "Dogs aren't wolves."

 

Well, yes and no. They are, most people agree, animals that used to be wolves and have had - for better or worse - extensive genetic tinkering over hundreds of generations. For some breeds the ghost of the wolf is more palpable than others.

 

I have actually lived with a wolf, in the city. She went to Ian Dunbar's puppy socialization class. She came when called and did not pee or poop in the house. But she was no Golden Retriever. If I had tried to carry a point with her by doing an alpha roll, I would very likely have received a serious bite, and the wolf would have lost her trust in me - possibly permanently.

 

Raksha had many behaviors that I see daily in a large number of dogs. And she also did not have many of the behaviors I see in ordinary dogs. The animal that I live with now is most like her. But my current dog has fear issues, which thankfully, are becoming resolved with patience and on-going work. Raksha only completely let down her guard with my rough Collie, whom she adored and me - when we were alone. This was true until the end of her life, and I structured things to give her the greatest peace of mind possible. I would never try it again. The difference between wolves and dogs is hard to quantify in some ways, but those differences are very real. For a companion, I'll take a dog any day.

 

And for the record, if you want to see the "wolf" in your dog, go ahead and do a dominance roll when you feel you aren't the boss. Just be sure your medical insurance premiums are paid up.

[bn_here_b4]

Jody, Bella and I play on the floor a lot but usually I am sitting. If I lay down it is a game where I lay on my stomach and hide my face in my arms. They like to sniff at my ears and neck to get me to look at them. So after reading this I changed it up and laid on my back looking at them. They threw every toy on me then flopped on their sides next to me for a big cuddle. They like this new game. I do too.

[Star]

Fascinating show I saw a while back on PBS which discusses the dog/human connection and the evolution of dogs from wolves:

 

 

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/dogs-that-changed-the-world/introduction/1273/

[k9diabetes]

Sophia Yin has been writing about dominance, pack behavior, whether dogs are like wolves when it comes to pack behaviors and hierarchies, and training approaches for a number of years.

 

My link