Looking for reputable breeders

[PSmitty]

No, not me. I just had a question that came up in the other thread and didn't want to take it off topic, per Eileen's request. So, here goes.

 

How come when someone comes here asking for recommendations for a reputable breeder, I never see any suggested breeders posted to the thread? I assume people might be PMing the OP some suggestions, but why don't they get posted for others who might be in the same boat?

 

Despite it apparently offending some, I will usually suggest rescue for someone like CoachB. Someone who does not need a working dog, wants a pet only. (I would never suggest rescue for someone who came here specifically looking for a dog to work). However, in addition to suggesting a rescue, if I had known of a good breeder in his area, I would have posted that info, too. Just so happens I didn't know anyone. Is it not acceptable to give out breeder names in a public forum? Just curious.

[MyTDogs]

Good question Paula!

 

I was thinking the same thing...because I am looking for a breeder/pup & I am having a hard time finding someone who has a suitable (for me) litter planned. FYI, I am looking for a working dog, not only a pet.

 

I wonder if someone were to post about Joe Smith being a good breeder & then having someone else write that in their opinion Joe is not a good breeder and a whole discussion ensues WRT someone not here to defend themselves, etc...

[Cindy Evans]

I wouldn't give out any name on an open forum without permission.

 

I live in GA and bought by last pup from CA. I was very happy with the purchase and have my name on a pup from an upcoming breeding. That person is a member of this forum.

 

There's a list of breeders for each state that can be downloaded from the Working Border Collie Magazine online. And while you're there looking subscribe; it's well worth it.

 

Do your own homework and make phone calls. Then go with the one you like talking to.

 

Cindy

[Maja]

But if a person has a web-site or a blog, then it should be no problem to give links?

Maja

[juliepoudrier]

I wonder if someone were to post about Joe Smith being a good breeder & then having someone else write that in their opinion Joe is not a good breeder and a whole discussion ensues WRT someone not here to defend themselves, etc...

I think this is the crux of the issue right here. I'm sure there are breeders some folks would recommend that would cause me to clutch my chest, gasping, and fall over--and vice versa. It's unfortunate, because a discussion of what makes a good working breeder would be much more helpful with examples of the same, but I figure most folks don't want to go out on that limb. That said, I suspect that people do PM people looking for puppies, and we just have to hope that the person receiving the recommendations continues to do their homework regarding the suggestions made so that they really are finding the best breeders.

 

I know of breeders that I'm sure folks would recommend but whose dogs I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot-pole. My reasons might vary from not liking the actual breeding practices to not like the way the keep, train, or treat their dogs (or perhaps even their livestock--because let's face it, if you have no respect for your stock, you likely don't have respect for other animals either). I wouldn't necessarily want to post my opinions publicly, but I will tell folks in person if they ask.

 

J.

[MrSnappy]

I totally understand your perspective Julie, but on the other side of the coin, I think it's a real shame that most of this community has no problem top posting trash commentary on non-working breeders that they don't like the looks or sounds of, but then becomes very tight lipped about any of "their own." In fact, posts about working breeders are swiftly moderated when they do make it to the boards. It seems to me that frank discussion of ALL breeding practices would probably benefit the community - and the breed - as a whole. Of course, I understand the politics behind it, but it seems to me that the elitism that this community frequently gets accused of (which receives eyerolls and sarcasm) is largely due to this and similar rules of conduct. Just an observation - it doesn't mean I don't understand where you're coming from. We are limited by some sort of societal convention, whether genuine or imposed.

 

RDM

[Eileen Stein]

I think it's a real shame that most of this community has no problem top posting trash commentary on non-working breeders that they don't like the looks or sounds of, but then becomes very tight lipped about any of "their own." In fact, posts about working breeders are swiftly moderated when they do make it to the boards.

 

Would you please post an example of this "swift moderation"? I would be interested to see it. Here is a counter-example.

 

I can think of one instance which you might be thinking of, but which does not fit your description very well. A member once posted that two named working breeders bred to AKC dogs -- no other criticism of their breeding, just that they gave stud service to AKC dogs. One of the two, who does not ordinarily post here, signed on and refuted the charge, and asked that it be removed. When the original accuser was not able to substantiate the claim with specifics, I removed that series of posts. That is in keeping with our policy, applied to working and non-working breeders alike. Throughout the discussion, the posts remained up until the original accuser failed to present supporting facts, and I strongly defended our policy of permitting breeders to be discussed by name.

 

Other than that, I can think of no occasion when "posts about working breeders [were] moderated," swiftly or otherwise. I also wonder what "when they do make it to the boards" is supposed to mean. Are you saying that I try to deter or prevent people from posting about working breeders? If so, that is an extremely offensive suggestion, and I hope you can present some evidence to support it or, failing that, will retract it. I also wonder what these other "similar rules of conduct" that evoke/justify accusations of elitism might be? Who is setting these rules, in your perception?

 

There are good arguments to be made against the policy of permitting breeders to be criticized by name -- and they've been made here by members who disagree with our policy. There are also legal risks to making accusations against breeders that you cannot substantiate. But while I would not like to see the Boards become a place where breeders are routinely or irresponsibly trashed, on the whole I feel that allowing opinions to be posted about breeders is an important service that the Boards can provide, and so I have stuck up for it despite its risks. Your charges here surprise me very much.

[juliepoudrier]

Sheena,

In my view, it's not about being tight-lipped about one of our own. As I noted there are people who breed good dogs who I don't like personally, for one reason or another. I wouldn't recommend those people because of my *personal* feelings, not because they are bad breeders (in the sense that they're producing bad dogs). I think there is a difference, though you may not see it that way. And as I said, I will tell people in person what I think about specific breeders (there are folks on this forum to whom I've done just that). But some of my opinions of breeders are based on first-hand knowledge and some are based on second- or third-hand information, hearsay, and suspicion--things I can't necessarily substantiate,so I certainly wouldn't put it out in public. Likewise, I prefer dogs from certain bloodlines, but I'm quite sure there are folks out there who wouldn't necessarily agree with all the practices of those breeders I like. It doesn't make the *dogs* they produce any less well bred, and I think that's the problem.

 

We're not talking about people like Richard Swafford or Mary Ann Harrison, or even folks who claim to have working dogs that really aren't much in the way of working. We're talking about people who breed good dogs, but who may not live up to our personal standards for one reason or another (or in some cases, people I just plain don't like). And just because I wouldn't give them my business doesn't mean I'd necessarily fault someone else for buying from them.

 

Maybe that's not a good enough reason for many who read this forum, but it's the best I can do. If anyone asks me about a specific breeder, I will give them my honest opinion. But I don't choose to do it on a public forum.

 

FWIW, the folks who have been denigrated on this forum largely seem to be of the BYB or mill type, IMO, as well as a few who fall under the category of claiming working dogs who don't really work. I think those people are fair game. But if I suspect Bill Sheepdogger (made up name) abuses his dogs, it does no one any good for me to make such a claim. I would certainly try to steer someone clear of him, but I'm not about to post my suspicions and open myself up to potentially real trouble.

 

J.

[Jedismom]

Well ok. Let's see then.

 

So I'm in the south, and I would like (hypothetically speaking)a new puppy. Being a board member for awhile, I know I should look for a puppy from working parents. So I do an internet search for some kind of stockdog/sheepdog association to attempt to find a list of appropriate breeders. I find the Georgia Stockdog Association and they have a list! Here it is.

 

http://www.gsda.org/breeders_directory.htm

 

Would this be a good place to start then? If they've listed themselves in this stockdog association, are they more likely to be what I'm looking for? Would you recommend anyone on this list?

[bcnewe2]

So I'm in the south, and I would like (hypothetically speaking)a new puppy. Being a board member for awhile, I know I should look for a puppy from working parents. So I do an internet search for some kind of stockdog/sheepdog association to attempt to find a list of appropriate breeders. I find the Georgia Stockdog Association and they have a list! Here it is.

 

http://www.gsda.org/...s_directory.htm

 

Would this be a good place to start then? If they've listed themselves in this stockdog association, are they more likely to be what I'm looking for? Would you recommend anyone on this list?

 

I think it's a start but who moderates that list?

It's been said here many times that if you want to get started in border collies it's a good idea to show up at some trials (you can find those on the USBCHA site) watch the dogs, Chat with people there and then start your journey into finding a pup. If you don't have time for that, then you might not have time for a good dog. If you don't need a nicely bred pup for a specfic reason, then IMO rescue it the way to go.

 

If like the poster that wanted some breeder names in a different post and was suggested to go with rescue which he made a point of saying that's not what he wanted to do, seemed like he was ready to do his homework and find the "right" pup. I would venture a guess that if there's a trial in a distance he's willing to travel, he'll be going.

 

Finding a good dog is hard even when you know the dogs, finding a good breeder is about the same unless you are out there in the know. If not, it does take some homework. Homework that I for one feel if you are ready to dedicate your life to one of these speical dogs, then you should be ready to do some homework.

 

I often wonder about the lists of good breeders you find out there on the internet. I guess if you can't get to any trials then it's a good place to get names to start your homework but that's about all I think a list is good for.

 

That being said, when starting in BC's, I did exactly what shouldn't be done. Went the BYB way, not even knowing what a BYB was. Internet wasn't as strong as it is today. I hadn't found this forum yet. I felt lucky at the time to even find a puppy in my driving area. I had no idea about how a good dog is bred. I regret the idea but I don't regret my dogs. And...for doGs sake....I wish there was a way to convince newbies that even though their dog is the most wonderful dog they've ever had, no matter where they got it. PLEASE DON'T BREED IT!

I fell into wanting to breed my first dog, within a year. Thank doG I never did. I love her dearly but oh my what I've learned and averted putting on the ground.

 

JMHO

[Sue R]

Lists (breeders' directories) are iffy because, if someone is a member or pays the fee (as the case may be), they can be on the list. I've seen the likes of MAH, dog-beaters, high-volume producers, and who-knows-what on lists.

 

Find someone you respect in terms of the way they interact with their dogs and livestock, and get references from them. Or, for instance with regards to these boards, contact someone here whom you respect and whose philosophy towards their animals suits you, and ask privately.

 

I never cease to be amazed when I find out someone that is very accomplished or apparently very reputable is not someone I'd recommend or want to support. On the other hand, there are lots of really fine folks who occasionally have pups/started dogs/retired dogs available - but the really good ones get "booked" fast and by word of mouth.

[Liz P]

I am of the opinion that everyone has their list of traits they want to see in a breeder. Each individual person puts more emphasis on different traits. One breeder that I might not hesitate to buy from would not be acceptable to another person. My list of must haves would read something like...

 

1) History of producing good working dogs.

2) Bloodline with the working characteristics that I like.

3) Health checks.

4) Working dog purist, aka ethics (like not registering AKC, studs not used on sport/show bitches, etc).

5) Treats their dogs with respect.

 

I can think of plenty of working breeders who I would buy from based on my list. But a person looking for a pet dog might not want to go to the same people because their list reads as...

 

1) Pups raised in the house.

2) Customer service (like pretty pics of the pups growing up)

3) Treats their dogs with respect.

4) Health checks.

5) At least attempting to produce working dogs.

 

So I might recommend breeders that pet owners would never buy from because they are not "ethical" according to the pet owner's standards. These breeders might do things like consider their dogs as farm hands rather than family members or raise pups in the barn instead of in the home.

[Eileen Stein]

So I'm in the south, and I would like (hypothetically speaking)a new puppy. Being a board member for awhile, I know I should look for a puppy from working parents. So I do an internet search for some kind of stockdog/sheepdog association to attempt to find a list of appropriate breeders. I find the Georgia Stockdog Association and they have a list! Here it is.

 

http://www.gsda.org/breeders_directory.htm

 

Would this be a good place to start then? If they've listed themselves in this stockdog association, are they more likely to be what I'm looking for? Would you recommend anyone on this list?

 

I think this is of some value as a place to start, in that it appears that this is a real working-oriented organization, so (with the caveats others have mentioned) there's reason to think that the breeders listed would be breeding for genuine working ability. That is often the hardest thing for a newbie to determine. But you'd probably need to go beyond that to be satisfied that the breeder is one you'd be happy to buy from. Most of these names are unfamiliar to me, and while I've trialed with some, and some others are recognizable to me as working breeders, I have not visited any of their farms nor discussed enough with them to have direct knowledge of their breeding standards and practices. Because of that, I would be likely to pass when it came to giving a recommendation. If I were going to recommend someone from this list it would be Norma Stewart, because I've served on the board of the ABCA with her, and she's been an active participant who shows a lot of knowledge and a lot of concern about the dogs. I know quite a bit about her that suggests she's a good breeder, and nothing about her that suggests she's not a good breeder. But if I were you, I'd want to talk with any breeder recommended to you and visit their place before deciding that it was the right breeder for you.

 

It occurs to me that most of the criticism of breeders that's found on the Boards -- not all, but definitely the majority -- is based on breeders' websites. And it seems to me that this is a pretty good basis for ruling out a breeder. First, it's fair, because you're using material that's put out there directly by the breeder, so there's no risk that it's false information being given you by someone else. And secondly, someone with knowledge and experience can recognize a whole lotta red flags from a website that an inexperienced viewer would miss. Thus, it's useful for newbies to hear an experienced critique of the weasel words and tipoffs on the website of a breeder they might be interested in. But again, this is more of a weeding out tool -- it doesn't tell you everything you need to know to be able to tell if a breeder you don't know is a good breeder. More investigation, and hopefully guidance from someone you have reason to trust who knows the breeder, would still be needed.

 

ETA: It also occurs to me that one of the reasons there might be a perception that Boards members are not as critical of real working breeders is the website-based nature of so much of the criticism on the Boards. Working breeders are less likely to have websites marketing puppies to the general public (although some certainly do), and less likely to have material on their sites that raises red flags about them as breeders.

[MyTDogs]

Well ok. Let's see then.

 

So I'm in the south, and I would like (hypothetically speaking)a new puppy. Being a board member for awhile, I know I should look for a puppy from working parents. So I do an internet search for some kind of stockdog/sheepdog association to attempt to find a list of appropriate breeders. I find the Georgia Stockdog Association and they have a list! Here it is.

 

http://www.gsda.org/breeders_directory.htm

 

Would this be a good place to start then? If they've listed themselves in this stockdog association, are they more likely to be what I'm looking for? Would you recommend anyone on this list?

 

I was looking at some of these sites & saw one litter that looks as though both mother & father were just about 1 year old when bred. That is way too early for me. I know how much a dog grows & changes after 1 year old. Also, health problems that could eliminate a dog from a breeding program don't necessarily show up before 1 year. No pedigrees listed & no mention of breeding philosophy- just some pix of the dogs in the pasture with cattle.

[denice]

I agree it is difficult to find a working dog that fits exactly what I am looking for. Getting a pup, even from parents who you have seen working, is an uncertain venture. It takes nearly two years for that pup to show you what it has. I don't mind looking at year to two year old dogs since at that age they show you more of who and what they are. The problem there lies, for me, in how they were raised and started. I want my dogs to be a part of the family and I live with them so I look for those folks who raise pups in the house and spend some time and effort getting them socialized and a well rounded experience when they are young. The dogs personality and attitude are as important to me as working ability. I think it is a package deal. I raise a few pups and I raise them how I would want a pup I buy raised. I feel the better foundation a pup has then the better possibility of being a great working dog. The instinct I can not put there but I can do a bunch to enable the dog to deal with life confidently so that instinct can be shown. I can help shape that instinct with positive, encouraging training. There are many folks who contact me looking for a dog and I turn down most of those folks or refer them to someone else. I ask the people to tell me what they want out of the dog, how the dog will be kept, what experience they have had with border collies or working dogs. I will sell to pet homes or working homes but I want the right fit. When I do not think it is the right fit I tell them so. There are many folks, not necessarily on these boards, that will sell a dog without being concerned of the outcome. I believe when you find someone who not only does the medical testing and has nice working dogs but has the dogs best interest at heart that is a person I would buy a dog from. I want someone to say come to my place, work my dogs see if you are comfortable with them. I know they would be there to help in the future. I will often ask friends that know me, know how I keep my dogs and know my handling style to keep an eye out for a dog that may suit me. I believe you have to know how someone handles a dog and their handling skill to really find a dog that suits them. The terms we use to describe working dogs are rather arbitrary and depend so much on our perspective. A 'tough' dog, strong eyed... Strong eyed to some is style, others it is sticky... loose eyed flanky or maybe it is simply free moving. To talk in those terms with someone I feel like I need to have seen them work dogs and know what they like so I interpret those terms correctly. I do not limit my search to one area or certain lines. There are good dogs out there but I think the really good ones are not advertised they are sold by word of mouth and pups are spoken for before they hit the ground. It is a good thing we do not all want the exact same thing in a dog but finding the 'one' for us takes lots of time and willingness to talk to lots of people about their dogs and sort though the information we are giving.

 

Denice