Front Line Plus/Lyme Disease

[burdock]

I am just wondering if any one uses Front line Plus for Tick and Flea or do most people get the Lyme shot for there dogs. Why I am asking is I had to remove a tick from Emma's Collar area it was dead and came off easily and called the vet and they said we should have her tested (40X) in 6 months. Trying to make up our minds whether we should just get the Lyme shot for her annually so we do not have to worry about her getting the disease. So far she has had two ticks on her at her age of 20 months, any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[njnovice]

My dogs get frontline put on them. They've had occasional ticks. Neither has ever been tested for Lyme or vaccinated for Lyme.

[juliepoudrier]

You might want to read the Lyme information Mark Billadeau posted in this forum just this morning: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=29874

 

It might help you decide what to do.

 

J.

[Alchemist]

I live in an area (Maryland) where the incidence of Lyme disease is HUGE. If you do nothing, your dog has a near certain chance of contracting Lyme disease. My dog goes on walks in the woods several times each week, and our backyard is wooded and is frequented by deer. So... I use Frontline. Moreover (on those relatively rare occasions where my dog is outdoors with no chance of going swimming) he also wears a tick collar. Plus he's been vaccinated for Lyme disease.

 

I have found dog ticks on him a couple of times but either it's been early (they're alive but not engorged), or they've been dead - evidence (in the latter case) that the tick preventative has been working. (It doesn't drive them away, it just kills them before they can inject harmful bacteria). I don't think I'd ever be able to spot a deer tick on him - they're just too small.

 

I do *not* use "Frontline Plus". The "plus" part (s-methoprene) is irrelevant to ticks. It breaks the breeding cycle of *insects* by interfering with metamorphosis (ticks are not insects). But ... it's a pretty scary chemical (from a toxicological perspective). A fairly close chemical cousin (to anyone who suffered from acute acne) to Accutane (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0000532#a681043-sideEffects for some of the restrictions placed on the use of this drug). (My 14-year-old's dermatologist is currently trying to exhaust all possibilities before prescribing Accutane for him - yet we routinely administer close cousins to our dogs with neither a prescription nor a second thought?). If I had a dog infested by fleas, I might well give Frontline Plus a try (I've dealt with flea allergies before; no fun, and prednisone is no picnic either, especially in elderly dogs), but IMO the environmental risk: benefit to my dog equation argues in favor of regular Frontline, not Frontline Plus.

 

My vet told me that the Lyme vaccine was no guarantee - it's not 100% effective. (Besides, there are other tick-borne diseases...). If you're in an area where there's a high incidence of Lyme, then multiple lines of defense (as my reading of the article that Mark posted recommends) is probably your safest approach. That means vaccination plus tick preventative plus checking regularly for ticks.

 

I'm currently considering whether I should get him tested periodically for tick-borne diseases.

[mbc1963]

I also live in tick central. (In fact, a local road about 15 miles from here was once considered "ground zero" of Lyme disease!)

 

Timely topic, because I pulled a disgusting adult deer tick off my hip the other morning. Hadn't been on me long; it was very flat and hadn't gotten any of my blood yet. So, I put it in a plastic bag, checked it under a microscope to confirm it was a deer tick - one fringe benefit of being a science teacher is access to low-power microscopes. Then I did some research. All the websites say that the bacteria can't be pushed into my body unless the tick has had a blood meal, because the warm blood is what stimulates the saliva flow.

 

So, I called my doctor and left a message about the tick, how it was flat, and that I was just confirming that I didn't need to go on antibiotics. I only got through to the nurse, I think. Had to go walk Buddy. When I got home, there was a message that my prescription for Doxycycline was waiting for me at the pharmacy.

 

Gotta admit, I'm kind of annoyed by this. I'm very, very sensitive to antibiotics. They do a number on my digestive system. Everything I can find about Lyme says a flat tick means no need for antibiotics, but now I'm second-guessing my own judgment because my doctor was so loose with his prescription. Grr.

 

What would y'all do?

 

Mary

[urge to herd]

Mary, I'd call back and see if I could speak directly with the doctor. The message from nurse to dr. could have gotten a bit garbled, being translated from 'should I go on antibiotics?' to 'I want some antibiotics!'

 

With your history, (I remember how sick you got from the dog bite antibiotics!) it's definitely worth a direct conversation with your dr, or even a consult w/an infectious disease specialist.

 

Good luck!

 

Ruth

[njnovice]

I also live in tick central. (In fact, a local road about 15 miles from here was once considered "ground zero" of Lyme disease!)

 

Timely topic, because I pulled a disgusting adult deer tick off my hip the other morning. Hadn't been on me long; it was very flat and hadn't gotten any of my blood yet. So, I put it in a plastic bag, checked it under a microscope to confirm it was a deer tick - one fringe benefit of being a science teacher is access to low-power microscopes. Then I did some research. All the websites say that the bacteria can't be pushed into my body unless the tick has had a blood meal, because the warm blood is what stimulates the saliva flow.

 

So, I called my doctor and left a message about the tick, how it was flat, and that I was just confirming that I didn't need to go on antibiotics. I only got through to the nurse, I think. Had to go walk Buddy. When I got home, there was a message that my prescription for Doxycycline was waiting for me at the pharmacy.

 

Gotta admit, I'm kind of annoyed by this. I'm very, very sensitive to antibiotics. They do a number on my digestive system. Everything I can find about Lyme says a flat tick means no need for antibiotics, but now I'm second-guessing my own judgment because my doctor was so loose with his prescription. Grr.

 

What would y'all do?

 

Mary

 

I pulled a deer tick off me a few years ago, that had been on me for a bit. I called my doctor, and he told me I didn't need antibiotics unless I started to show any symptoms of lyme. I was fine. And, he usually prescribes drugs at the drop of a hat.

 

I wouldn't take the antibiotics, personally. In fact, the last time I took them was 7 years ago when I was in the hospital with a staph infection. Prior to that, I had last taken them at the age of 7. I only know that because everybody was SHOCKED to see that in my medical records.

[burdock]

Thanks for the info I also read the old post about ticks. I had one removed from me in the Doc's office had to get a tetnus shot and triple antibiotic for a week, we might go with the Lynne shot this years at the dogs yearly visit at the vet . We will talk to him about it at that time i guess and see if he recommends it were do the ticks go during the cold winter months.

[gcv-border]

I have come to this topic a little late, but thought I would add a little bit of my experience:

 

I used to live in an area (Hunterdon County, NJ) which had the highest per capita cases of Lyme disease during the time I lived there (I don't think there was a correlation :-)) I managed to contract Lyme myself. I did NOT have the distinctive bulls-eye rash (apparently 20-30% of people don't) so I had to suffer an additional 2 weeks past when I thought I had Lyme disease since the infectious disease nurse I talked to told me that I didn't have Lyme because I didn't have the bulls-eye. By that time the Lyme disease had progressed to Bell's palsy, which finally convinced the doc that I did have Lyme - at which time I got a prescription for doxy. To prevent stomach upset, I would take a high potency probiotic tablet about one hour before taking doxy - which I tried to take with food. The 2 times I forgot the probiotic, my stomach really rebelled. Not sure if this trick would help someone super sensitive to antibiotics, but it did help me. (Someone else on this board would use the probiotic tablet after taking the doxy tablet.)

 

With respect to dogs: I have not had my dogs vaccinated with the Lyme vaccine. It does not provide a sufficient level of protection IMHO. And four different vets, in 2 different states, have not recommended the vaccine when asked.

 

It is a constant battle with the ticks here too. What works for me is Frontline combined with a Preventic collar. Advantix or Frontline by themself do not 'work' for me --- i.e. I still had to pull attached ticks off my dogs and both dogs have been treated with doxy at least once for TBD (once for Lyme and twice for erlichia - based on snap test results). Luckily, both dogs have tolerated the doxy well. (no vomiting or diarrhea) Since adding the Preventic collar, the # of ticks I find on my dogs has significantly decreased and I have not found any attached ticks.

 

Many vets here automatically perform a snap test (to detect TBDs and heartworm) when one brings in their dog for their annual check-up and vaccinations.

 

Because of the high incidence of TBD in this area (for both human and canine) and the fact that Lyme symptoms can be vague, most docs and vets here are quick to prescribe doxy or amoxy. In fact, some people and their dogs take doxy once a year 'just in case'. I hardly ever have to take antibiotics and don't believe in using them indiscriminantly, but in the case of Lyme disease, I have to agree with using doxy prophylactically. To me, the consequences of chronic Lyme are too serious to risk.

 

Jovi

[MyTDogs]

IME, daily checking & Frontline SPRAY are a good combo for keeping ticks at bay. In FL we have ticks issues in the fall & spring it seems.....but I had a horrible outbreak where they got in the house & were literally crawling up the walls!-<gag!> The Frontline spray applied to the feet & underside along with combing daily with a flea comb (gets even the tiniest babies) really helped get it under control (and getting rid of the roommate who didn't treat/check all her dogs).

 

The bad news is that many vets down here still tell clients we don't have Lyme's in FL. We had a client come in the office the other day & she had recently contracted it from a tick she got while gardening.

 

 

When I lived in MD it was much more common to get ticks on me but we weren't outside as much as we are here because we were in an apartment.

[juliepoudrier]

I have come to this topic a little late, but thought I would add a little bit of my experience:

(Someone else on this board would use the probiotic tablet after taking the doxy tablet.)

 

That would be me. If you take the probiotic before the doxy, then the doxy is just going to wipe out everything you just put in. According to the folks on Tick-L, the best way to prevent stomach upset is to give Pepcid (generic is fine) one hour before doxy, give doxy with food, and then give probiotics 2 hours after. (I also give liver support tablets.) The reasoning is that the famotidine (pepcid) will reduce acid in the stomach before you hit it with the doxy (which when given with food is less likely to cause nausea) and the probiotics will replace the beneficial bacteria *after* the doxy has cleared the GI tract, which gives the bacteria another 10 hours to do their thing in the gut before the next dose of doxy comes.

 

I've had one of my dogs on doxy now for nearly 10 weeks. I started with the program described above, but it turns out that he tolerates it well even if I skip the acid controller and the probiotics. So it really does depend on the individual dog. So far any of mine that have been on doxy have tolerated it well.

 

Because of the high incidence of TBD in this area (for both human and canine) and the fact that Lyme symptoms can be vague, most docs and vets here are quick to prescribe doxy or amoxy. In fact, some people and their dogs take doxy once a year 'just in case'. I hardly ever have to take antibiotics and don't believe in using them indiscriminantly, but in the case of Lyme disease, I have to agree with using doxy prophylactically. To me, the consequences of chronic Lyme are too serious to risk.

 

There was a recent discussion in Tick-L regarding the utility of a prophylactic dose of doxy (this is the single high dose of doxy after tick exposure). In that case it seems that the consensus was *against* the use of doxy this way.

 

Another thing to consider--besides the very valid issue of overuse of antibiotics and development of resistant bacteria--is that doxy can damage the liver. So folks who choose to use it prophylactically should be cognizant of that possible side effect and provide liver support proactively (and be aware of and look for signs of liver problems).

 

I would not give doxy prophylactically on a regular basis, but if I have a dog with vague symptoms (like the dog I'm treating now, who exhibited only mental confusion when working--and apparently there have been similar incidences among other working dogs) from whom I have also removed ticks, then I would choose to treat, even if my vet isn't convinced that tick disease is the problem.

 

J.

[Mark Billadeau]

We have had 2 dogs positive for Lyme so far. The more recent positives had similar symptoms to what Julie has described. Because of this we have recently discussed (again) vaccinating against Lyme. If we were to vaccinate, we would choose the newest one from Intervet (Schering-Plough) which has fewer adverse reactions and higher efficacy. We again came to the same conclusion that the cost vs. benefit of this vaccination (no more than 12 month DOI) did not make sense as compared to testing (which would still occur with vaccination), cost of treatment, and rate of progression of the disease (as compared to something like lepto).

 

The cost of these vaccines is $15-$20/dose.

First year requires 2 doses; one dose annually after that.

Treatment is about $20 per course.

 

Tick preventative will be required with or without vaccination.

Treatment covers all known tick borne diseases (TBDs).

 

Everyone should weight thier cercomstances and develop their own plan for dealing with TBDs.

 

Mark

 

 

[gcv-border]

 

There was a recent discussion in Tick-L regarding the utility of a prophylactic dose of doxy (this is the single high dose of doxy after tick exposure). In that case it seems that the consensus was *against* the use of doxy this way.

 

Another thing to consider--besides the very valid issue of overuse of antibiotics and development of resistant bacteria--is that doxy can damage the liver. So folks who choose to use it prophylactically should be cognizant of that possible side effect and provide liver support proactively (and be aware of and look for signs of liver problems).

 

I would not give doxy prophylactically on a regular basis, but if I have a dog with vague symptoms (like the dog I'm treating now, who exhibited only mental confusion when working--and apparently there have been similar incidences among other working dogs) from whom I have also removed ticks, then I would choose to treat, even if my vet isn't convinced that tick disease is the problem.

 

J.

 

 

Good points above.

I guess I used the term "prophylactically" incorrectly. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

 

I did not mean to indicate that doxy would be given as a single dose after tick exposure. I meant it to mean as Julie described above -- a full course of doxy given to a dog (or human) when symptoms are vague and cannot be ascribed to any particular disease. I have had similar example with my dog in which he had very, very subtle symptoms - slight reduction in eating speed, less running around during our free range walks, calmer inside the house - that disappeared a few days after he started his course of doxy. Based on the fact he improved after starting a treament for TBD, one would say he had a TBD. That is the logical conclusion, but it is definitive.

 

Julie,

What do you use for liver support? It would be good to know for future reference.

 

Thanks,

Jovi

[burdock]

Boy all the info is making my head spin but thanks for the info any one have a preference for a flea and tick collar to go along with the Frontline Plus we are already giving Emma.

[gcv-border]

I have had similar example with my dog in which he had very, very subtle symptoms - slight reduction in eating speed, less running around during our free range walks, calmer inside the house - that disappeared a few days after he started his course of doxy. Based on the fact he improved after starting a treament for TBD, one would say he had a TBD. That is the logical conclusion, but it is definitive.

 

 

Thanks,

Jovi

 

 

Whoops! Meant to type in the last sentence -- ...., but it is not definitive.

 

Jovi

[juliepoudrier]

Jovi,

I use a product called Biochem Liver Support Factors, made by a company called Country Life. You could also use milk thistle (the LSF has milk thistle as one of the main ingredients, but has a bunch of other stuff as well).

 

The common wisdom has been to treat dogs with vague/unexplained symptoms even in the absence of positive test results. If the dog shows improvement with treatment, then the problem is considered to have been TBD, regardless of test results. The problem comes with defining rapid improvement. For lameness and similar issues, it's usually a matter of days, at which point you assume TBD and continue with the full course of treatment. With the mental confusion my dog expressed, it was actually weeks before I saw improvement. In fact, I was advised to continue treating past the normal 8 weeks because his improvement was so slow.

 

We're learning a lot about tick diseases, but there's still a heck of a lot we don't know, and owners can find themselves on their own when trying to figure out what's causing their dog's problems and what to do about it. It amazes me that vets will claim that there's no Lyme in this area, when I know of people and dogs that have been diagnosed with it, and here in NC we have the leading expert on Babesiosis, so you'd think tick diseases would recieve more attention than they do, but that's not the case.

 

Burdock,

The only collar I've ever heard positive things about is the Preventic color that someone already mentioned in this thread. You need to remove the collar if the dog is going to swim or otherwise get soaked.

 

J.

[jenkshipley]

I do not use any chemical based topical or oral tick or flea preventatives despite living in a very high density area for Lyme. One of my dogs has epilepsy and her vet feels any topicals on her or the dogs that share household space would be risky. Before having a dog with epilepsy, I rarely used any of those producets and stopped using all together any of the products a few years ago. I strongly feel that the products are not safe or healthy. I feel the exact same way about the vaccines available.

 

I also happen to know four people personally whose dogs all became infected with Lyme, 2 with other TBDs as well, while their owners were regularly using Frontline.

 

My dogs, Fever did have Lyme. We treated with an aggressive dose of Doxy, supporting with milk thistle and SAM E and followed that with 90 days of Teasel based on the suggestion of a herbalist who has used it successfully to treat Lyme in people. Fever is now negative on a Snap4.

 

I also have a dog who tests positive but has never shown symptoms. Although the vet is retired and I cannot get records, there is a possibility that she received a Lyme vaccine before I knew better. I know that my dog that passe 3 years ago of renal failure did recieve a Lyme vaccine. I have treated my dog who tests positive with Doxy and I will either of my other two dogs with Doxy if they ever show positive on a Snap4.

 

Instead of using insecticides on my dogs, I put quite a bit of effort into treating my property. While this was a bit of work during the first years, I spend very little time treating the yard now at all. I have had exactly 2 dog ticks appear on my dogs in the past 2 years and no deer ticks. I did remove the dogs from the property for 48 hours and treat with an insecticide once, mow and remove the cuttings and then followed up dish soap in a hose sprayer every 3 weeks or so. I keep a perimter around the fenced area of my yard well cleared.

 

When off property I used Buck Mountain Parasite Dust and an essential oil spray made out of rose geranium and lavender oils in vodka and distilled water.

 

Interestingly enough, I attended an agility trial the weekend before last and the only dog I pulled any deer ticks off of was my foster dog who came treated with Frontline less then 30 days ago.

 

Best,

Jen

ADCH Enna TM - Silver, MX, MXJ - rescued champion

Ignited's Molten Rush, aka: Lava

Rising Sun's Hot to the Touch - aka: Fever - retired due to epilepsy

Flute AAD, AX, OAJ, OAC, OGC, NAJ - retired

[Mark Billadeau]

I do not use any chemical based topical....

 

When off property I used Buck Mountain Parasite Dust and an essential oil spray made out of rose geranium and lavender oils in vodka and distilled water.

FYI Essential oils are complex mixtures of chemicals made by plants. For example rose geranium oil contains the following chemicals in varying amounts depending upon the genetics of the plant, the growing conditions, and how the extract was obtained.

 

-pinene

(E)-rose oxides

isomenthone

citronellol

citronellyl formate

citronellyl acetate

β-caryophyllene

citronellyl butyrate

citronellyl tiglate

terpinen-4-ol

geranyl formate

β-bourbonene

-muurolene

geranyl isovalerate

10-epi--eudesmol

geranyl tiglate

linalol

geraniol

geranyl acetate+geranic acid

β-phenylethyl butyrate

6,9-guaiadiene

-humulene

 

Don't be fooled by marketing that says all natural and chemical free. Now it could be that these chemicals do not elicit a reaction where other chemicals do. For example, urushiol is ALL NATURAL and it defiantly elicits a reaction in many people.

 

 

Mark, the research chemist, getting off his soapbox

[juliepoudrier]

Jen,

Do you have any (crawling) insect life at all on your property? Property treatment may be practical for small properties, but would be rather difficult at the farm level. And just as you have an aversion to putting (man-made) chemicals on your dogs, I have an aversion to killing off beneficial insects simply for the sake of preventing undesirable insects/arachnids from coming into contact with my dogs. Maybe on a very small scale, it wouldn't be so bad, but if done on a large scale it could constitute an environmental disaster.

 

J.

[jenkshipley]

Julie -

I live on about 1.4 acres - about 2/3 or a little less of which is fenced. I have plenty of bugs, just battled a Carpenter ant infestation in my kitchen this summer. I also have frogs, toads, turtles that pass thru, etc.

 

I treated 3 summers ago quite a bit. When I moved there there was a very heavy tick population. The summer before this last summer, I think I sprayed with Dove once in or around the beginning of June. I had a few dog ticks show up. This past summer I did not have to do a thing. My yard is kept in such a way that it is unfriendly for ticks, and I keep a well cleared perimeter between my yard and the wooded property surrounding the fence.

 

If I had a farm or if I moved to a larger property - I would make my own tick tubes and put them out twice a year, use sulfur and lime on the ground and perhaps put up deer rubs if necessary. I know people who have used all three, have a lot more property in my area and have had success with those methods.

 

Oh, and if I didn't live in suburbia where the neighbors would be less then pleased, I would have Guinea Hens.

 

Best,

Jen

[jenkshipley]

Mark -

 

I undertand that things in nature contain chemicals. I get your point.

 

However, I chose the items I chose on the recommendation of my holistic vet who, by the way, does not sell any of the conventional topicals or use them on her own dogs.

 

There have been many reported cases of adverse reactions caused by the topical flea and tick products - Frontline, Frontline Plus, Advantix, Bio Spot, etc. and some deaths. FINALLY this is being studied, which is backwards in my opinion, but typical of medications sold for pets.

 

I have never read or heard about a severe adverse reaction or death caused by Buck Mountain Parasite Dust or essential oil spray. I am careful about what essential oils I do use, due to my dog's epilepsy, also discussed with my vet, but I find they are very effective.

 

Products are on the market for dogs that carry a risk of serious, adverse reaction that can lead to death. These products would not be approved for use in humans with the same level of risk involved. If you want a great example of this, um - Rimadyl. It started out a possible human drug, had the risk of horrible side effects, now it is being pushed extensively for dogs.

 

There is no concrete proof of how long a tick actually has to be attached to a dog before Lyme or other TBDs are transmitted. My dog's litter mate, my mother's dog and two good friend's dogs all were current on Frontline, applied properly and all ended up with Lyme. My dog's sister had Lyme, RMSF and Elirchisosis all at once and almost died.

 

The myth that topical insecticides do not permeate the skin is simply not true.

 

Do the natural alternatives present a risk of adverse reaction? Perhaps. When cases are reported as they are with the conventional topicals, well I may rethink what I use on my dogs - again.

 

Best,

Jen

[juliepoudrier]

I have guineas. Unfortunately their mama was killed while on the nest and I let my bantams hatch out the eggs, and now the guineas won't go out into the pastures and hunt ticks but instead stay right around the house with the chickens (unlike the original pair, which roamed the entire property).

 

J.

[Mark Billadeau]

Of course things can absorb through the skin, it's a semipermeable membrane.

 

There is a wealth of studies on how long an infected tick must be attached before transmission of Borrelia burgdorferi; since we're dealing with biology there isn't a fixed time frame there is increasing risk of infection with attachment times. For example:

 

Diagnosis and Treatment of Lyme Disease

Robert L. Bratton, MD, John W. Whiteside, MD, Michael J. Hovan, MD, Richard L. Engle, MD and Frederick D. Edwards, MD

Mayo Clinic Proceedings May 2008 vol. 83 no. 5 566-571

 

Typically, the tick must feed for at least 36 hours for transmission of the causative bacterium, Borrelia burgdorferi, to occur.

[juliepoudrier]

Do the natural alternatives present a risk of adverse reaction? Perhaps. When cases are reported as they are with the conventional topicals, well I may rethink what I use on my dogs - again.

 

Best,

Jen

Jen,

I think it should be pointed out that the natural alternatives are probably used at a much lower rate than the big name topicals and so any adverse reactions would be reported at a much lower rate as well (if at all, since people using natural products would probably not think to blame the natural product for the adverse reaction, simply reasoning that a natural product wouldn't be likely to harm their pet).

 

I have a dog who has had seizures, and for a long time I avoided using any flea or tick control products on her, but when the critters got bad enough, I took a chance and used what I've always used, with no problems.

 

I'm not opposed to people using whatever works for them, but ISTM that lack of reports of adverse reactions doesn't necessarily mean any product is safe for an individual dog.

 

I've considered using essential oils, but because I also have cats, I have to be concerned about the adverse (toxic) effects on them as well.

 

Interesting that Mark found a reference stating that at least 36 hours were needed for a tick to transmit Lyme disease organisms--I had always heard 48 hours. And when I complained to Merial about finding engorged ticks on my treated dogs, their response was that the mouth parts of the tick would have been paralyzed, therefore no disease transmission. Well, um, if the tick is engorged, how did it do THAT with paralyzed mouth parts?

 

Anyway, I mainly just wanted to point out to others who might be reading this thread that absence of reporting doesn't equal absence of actual adverse effects.

 

J.

[Mark Billadeau]

Also the sellers of essential oils are not required to perform any testing unlike the manufactures of regulated "chemicals".

 

I'm not saying they are unsafe or lack efficacy; I'm just saying there is a lack of data collected under controlled conditions and published under peer review conditions.

 

Julie, most of the articles I found talked about exponentially increasing risk of transmission after 48hrs of attachment. I guess it comes down to what you would consider a significant risk. I would need to have access to the whole articles to read the statistics to see if I agree with the authors' definition of "above the noise" to determine if the risk was really "significant".