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Color genertics question


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PSmitty, I think Will is 'seal', which depending on your source is either a dark shaded sable +/- the influence of an unknown modifying gene, or the result of a dog being sable (ay ay) as well as heterozygous for dominant black (Kk).

 

 

 

Interesting, I wonder if this is what my Ross has....maybe not.

 

Ross is out of Rye (b/w) and Mist (Tri).....Rye has bred a few tri bitches but only throws black and white (really black factored), never any tri (or any other color). However, some of the b/w pups are a "muddy" black and others are a true black....the muddy black ones usually have white hairs under their tales whereas the true black do not.

 

A fairly experienced border collie breeder made an offhand comment that "the tri was breaking through"....I didn't know what it meant or if it had any validity.

 

I'll try to get a picture of Ross's "muddy" black....maybe a picture of dam, Mist too.

 

Mist has a fair amount of sabling but I don't have a picture that shows it.

Mist016.jpg

 

Ross - it isn't just the light, you can see the "mud" on the right front and back leg.

BigWillow52010010-1.jpg

 

Ross as a pup....see muddy cast to coat (beside the actual mud).

2008_0209DogWork00222.jpg

 

Litter sister, Soot, has got the mud thing going on too.

Various018.jpg

 

I have another pup growing up on that is out of a different tri bitch, that looks muddy....her adult coat is still growing in so it's hard to tell for sure.

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This, sort of. My understanding is that sable is incompletely dominant to tri, so a dog can be both sable and tri (ay at- 'shaded sable')- and will sometimes look like a tri, but the hairs are sable when you look closely. Homozygous sables (ay ay) in contrast are often lighter coloured, 'orange', or a sort of cream.

 

I wonder what Gil is....Here is a pic of her at around age 3- her colors were most vivid then:

See how dark the black is?

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post-10573-085442000 1287461207_thumb.jpg

 

Now that she is almost 13 her black has brown underneath- like a sable. I noticed it bleeding in from the extremities and over the top of her head. At this point the only area that is black down to the skin is the black part of the "saddle" area. Her "tan" is much lighter too...almost white. I figure that's just age. I can try & get a pic tomorrow showing the lighter undercoat on her head & hips.

 

So could she be a sable? Or just a regular Tri? Ticking aside of course.

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Danielle--thanks! for finding the pic of Tikkle. You can see the few tan hairs just above the elbow, and she has similar hairs on her flanks. (That has to be a Zamora pic, as her ears are really blowin' in the wind.)

 

Paula--Me, too!!!

A

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  • 1 month later...

I have had 2 litters of BCs. My first litter was 9 puppies. 3 of those were sable. The 2nd litter had 8 puppies and all were black and white. The mom had red siblings and the dad had tri siblings. The mom has a muddy tint to her fur when she is in the sun.

 

Here is the 1st litter. Only 8 would cooperate with me. You can tell which ones were the sables.

 

The second picture is one of the sable puppies now 8 months old.

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post-11738-092727400 1290478603_thumb.jpg

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  • 1 month later...

Alright you color geniuses, maybe you can answer my question. My 12 mo. old red border collie out of a red tri sire (whose dam was black tri and sire was black/white) and black/white dam (whose siblings are black tri and whose dam was red and sire was black/white) is looking a bit funky. I noticed as his adult coat was coming in that on his face and some other spots his hair was actually white at the base and dark red at the tip which gives his face a slightly mottled appearance of different reds. Then on his back he has 2 huge patches (one over his hips, other over shoulders) of light red surrounded surrounded by his normal dark red coloring. This strangely light red is also on his pants too. The light red color is solid all the way from the base to the tips. Both his breeder and I thought the light red (almost austrailan red) patches were from the sun but his winter coat just came in and yep- its still all funky!

To top it all off his right eye is a dark brown with inner ring of blue and his left eye is a green/amber color (depends on lighting). Both his parents have solid dark brown eyes. Are you confused yet? I certainly am! I'd really like to know what to call my pup and wonder what genetics these are. :)

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  • 6 months later...

I have a color genetics question. I have a black tri female. Her sire was Saddle back sable. Her Dam Red tri. The top of her head apears black, but is brown underneath. As far as genetics in my head she must carry the sable gene as well as the red gene. Is this accurate? I don't really understand how the sable gene works. Her litter consisted of 4 saddle back sables and 4 black tris.

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These dogs: sire was Dale, a smooth coat, dark dog who was brindled.

 

Dam was my Flick: properly stacked ;) LOL

Flick.jpg

 

Here are the results: all but the dog on the far right, who is a kelpie. In addition, there was a smooth tri-colored bitch -- lots of brown on her. Don't have a picture of her though. The three here have brindle points -- sorry, don't know the right terminology0

 

wmballthedogs11.jpg

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A littermate to Flick -- was bred to Pulfer's Dan - son of his Tweed dog. The pups were mostly traditional tri's except for 2 who had a lot of brown on them and completely brown heads. Don't have pictures of them. This is Bay who was typical of most of that litter:

 

Bay1-1.jpg

 

One of her littermates was bred to a saddle backed tri, and produced mostly tri's with some mottling. This pup, though, who is my Dinah, is out of that litter. She's a tri sable, I think. I think that maybe she's picked up some of her g granddaddy's unusual coloring. I'd never seen Tweed in the flesh, but only some pics of him so I'm only guessing. She'd probably be pegged a collie mix if she were in a shelter.

 

Dinah:

 

Dinahsleep.jpg

 

SeanDinahnice.jpg

 

Dinahcloseup.jpg

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Here are the results: all but the dog on the far right, who is a kelpie.

Don't ask me why this sent me into fits of laughter but it did! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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For Sue!

 

 

 

The other day I asked someone what kind of dog they had.

 

They replied, 'A Whelpie.'

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For Sue!

 

 

 

The other day I asked someone what kind of dog they had.

 

They replied, 'A Whelpie.'

Does that mean they breed her every cycle? :P

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